A Question on Study Topics

A couple of recent threads by Weld and Cobra struck a chord with me, and got me thinking about why my game sucks so much at the moment, and i reckon the main problem is that my study-time is not really effective because it's so hap-hazard.

By that i mean that, although i have access to loads of valuable resources (FTR, video coaching sites, books, etc.), i don't really know what i should be focussing on in order to stop being such a BC Moran, and end up flitting from concept to concept and not really taking any of it in fully.

is it naive to think that, in the v. early stages of the poker learning-curve, study can be broken down into a staged syllabus? e.g. here're 3 crucial topics, go away and learn/practice them, and when you have understood those, here's the next one that builds on that, etc.

your thoughts'd be appreciated.

i'll also post my stats and t'ing in case that helps pinpoint the glaring horriblenesses

$10NL Chart


HEM2 Leakbuster Report:


As above, by Position:


Cheers!

I'd look into learning to barrel the turn more effectively since you don't do it much.

I'd also look into 4-betting since you're folding a whole lot to 3-bets.

I think you can definitely identify sets of basics to learn first. That's why it's still possible to beat the lowest stakes with a hand chart and a set of rules to obey.

re your stats. ask yourself about why you 3bet the small blind more often than the button. Think about position a lot. You fold to a lot of 3bets. You don't barrel much. I bet you don't raise many cbets.

It is very difficult to give you very in depth help from stats but it definitely seems like you are folding too much to 3bets, folding too much to c-bets, not stealing enough blinds from the button.

I'm confused. Is this a thread about how to pick up the basics or is this a thread about analyzing DoubleJ's stats?

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'm confused. Is this a thread about how to pick up the basics or is this a thread about analyzing DoubleJ's stats?

OP is a request for guidance w/ focusing my poker studies.

Stats included so The Great Ones can immediately detect problem areas.

But we can talk about basics too, if u wanna

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

.

But we can talk about basics too, if u wanna

I haven't studied stats before so my thoughts on them would be pretty worthless, what basics do you think you struggle with the most?

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'm confused. Is this a thread about how to pick up the basics or is this a thread about analyzing DoubleJ's stats?

The shit being pointed out are basics.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'd look into learning to barrel the turn more effectively since you don't do it much.

I'd also look into 4-betting since you're folding a whole lot to 3-bets.

I think folding up to 75% is fine especially at these stakes where most players won't have a wide 3bing range. I mean even though we fold a tonne we're not going to be exploited for it because most people are throwing in a cbet(usually too large) on the flop w/ most of their range. If villains aren't doing this then obv. we can call more because we get more free cards etc.

I could obviously go on but most spots I've looked at in my life when we are folding "exploitable" amounts we aren't actually being exploited because of villain throwing bets away on future streets v our strong range.

The extreme example of this is we open atc bvb correctly and villain only continues w/ AA and we continue to throw bets in w/ nearly 0% equity on XYZ flop.

edit: Of course if we can profitably find more spots to 4b then we should. LDO

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The shit being pointed out are basics.

That's one shit, so it's good, right... but the verb indicates plural, so it's bad... now I'm even more confused.

Meh... I typed a bunch of stuff that I consider basics, but I can't fathom it helping anyone in the BC every time I re-read it. Delete, delete, delete.

Anything that qualifies as truly basic (like learn what a deck of cards is) is just absurdly obvious and no one here needs it. Stepping in to things like, "learn to play pre-flop" is still stupid, since there's just no perfect way to play with so many different circumstances involved in every hand.

Things that are truly helpful to the BC are things like "learn how to use and identify ranges to your advantage" and "learn what a balanced strategy is and when to favor balance vs exploitation."

Sure, it's not "advanced" and not in the upper level of truly understanding NLHE, but I observe it takes a bit of background to talk about these topics meaningfully.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'd also look into 4-betting since you're folding a whole lot to 3-bets.

Thanks spoon

should i be looking at my response to 3Bets in general? presumably if i'm folding too much, i'm also missing spots to call profitably too?

or just focus on 4Betting for now?

Hi daven - how's yer arse?

Originally Posted by daven

...ask yourself about why you 3bet the small blind more often than the button...

i'm 3Betting from the blinds for value and frequently as re-steals vs. weak CO/BTN steal ranges, and vs. hi steal % + hi fold to re-steal % villains

from the BTN i'm 3Betting for value, and also looking for spots to bluff weak CO opens and spots to exploit v low or v hi fold-to-3Bet raisers.

i guess your inference is that i'm not looking hard enough here?

Can you filter to find out how often:

- your opponents fold to your 3bets
- your opponents call your 3bets
- how much you win/lose in bb/100 when you 3bet

by position?

Originally Posted by Pascal

Can you filter to find out:
- how much you win/lose in bb/100 when you 3bet
by position?

here ya go:-

Originally Posted by Pascal

Can you filter to find out how often:
- your opponents fold to your 3bets
- your opponents call your 3bets
by position?

errrmmm...i don't know how to do that in HM2. Do you?

i'm not sure what that would tell me, tho....??

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Anything that qualifies as truly basic (like learn what a deck of cards is) is just absurdly obvious and no one here needs it. Stepping in to things like, "learn to play pre-flop" is still stupid, since there's just no perfect way to play with so many different circumstances involved in every hand.

Things that are truly helpful to the BC are things like "learn how to use and identify ranges to your advantage" and "learn what a balanced strategy is and when to favor balance vs exploitation."

Sure, it's not "advanced" and not in the upper level of truly understanding NLHE, but I observe it takes a bit of background to talk about these topics meaningfully.

Moj'

this is very insightful/relevant - i've been thinking about it all day.

i wanna respond properly, but i'm in the middle of cooking a garlic chicken balti right now, so laterz...

I don't have HM2 no. There might be a filter different to Did 3bet=True which is something like Opponent Call 3bet or something? :s

Originally Posted by Pascal

I don't have HM2 no. There might be a filter different to Did 3bet=True which is something like Opponent Call 3bet or something? :s

there isn't (as far as i can see - someone jump in here if they know), but i think i can get a breakdown using a couple of diff. filters and collating the results.

again, tho...what would this tell me, plizz?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

Moj'

this is very insightful/relevant - i've been thinking about it all day.

i wanna respond properly, but i'm in the middle of cooking a garlic chicken balti right now, so laterz...

You still cooking? You either have a lot of chicken, or burned chicken.

I'm happy to hear that you got something from that, as I ended up thinking it was a waste of a post. Also happy 'cause I'd like to hear what you have to add.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

You still cooking? You either have a lot of chicken, or burned chicken.

You forget that after The Cooking of the Chicken comes The Eating of the Chicken.

For those of you not schooled in The Way of the Balti, much ceremony and ritual is involved.

Also Lager.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I'm happy to hear that you got something from that, as I ended up thinking it was a waste of a post. Also happy 'cause I'd like to hear what you have to add.

So, your post got me thinking about "Basics" vs. "Fundamentals", and how this relates to my learning curve.

Someone once said: "I’ve realized [..] that everything in poker boils down to just a few simple things like ranges, betting and adjustments [...], and everything else that we’ve learned about poker at one point or another are just other applications of those things. So now instead of thinking about the principles we all learn along the way, I’m thinking more in terms of what seem to be the real fundamentals."

which seems emminently sensible.

Someone else wrote about: "..the backwards learning theory of poker. It's the idea that people think that they first need to learn the facts before the theory"

which i either don't understand, or understand but don't fully agree with, because - as you say - "it takes a bit of background to talk about these topics meaningfully".

i'm trying to dig out a vid i got from Nick Wealthall (yeh, the creepy English guy w/ the teeth) where he takes his copy of The Theory of Poker and chucks it off his balcony. His point being that it has the same amount of value to the poker noob as a technical manual on carburettor maintenance has to a noob driver. When you're a novice, your focus is almost 100% "inside the car" - turning the wheel, working the pedals, trying not to crash, etc. It's only as you gain experience that your focus shifts outwards.

(LDO he edited out the bit where he runs downstairs to retrieve his book from the bushes.)

So i'm now pondering the tipping point where a moranic BC hand-chart jockey might have amassed enough experience to make the jump to poker light-speed.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

i think i can get a breakdown using a couple of diff. filters and collating the results.

@Pascal: here ya go. i think this is kosher...

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

You forget that after The Cooking of the Chicken comes The Eating of the Chicken.

For those of you not schooled in The Way of the Balti, much ceremony and ritual is involved.

Also Lager.

Balti? pfft. Vindaloo/Phal is where it's at +1 to lager though

Drop down to 5nl until you learn the basics imo.

something like this mebbe? http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ce-157914.html

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Things that are truly helpful to the BC are things like "learn what a balanced strategy is and when to favor balance vs exploitation."

The following rant is in no way aimed at you Mr Monkey, you just reminded me of it....

When did balanced vs exploitative become an important BC topic? If people took all the time they spent worrying about what % of their range they should do X with in Y spot so that they're strategically solid and directed it to how to actually put their opponent on a range, and just play really well in a vacuum, they'd do a hell of a lot better imo. Noone is exploiting you or understand what it is to have a strategy that exploits your exploitability so go and exploit them by doing lots of stuff that's just simply +EV. Save the galfonding it up for stakes where it's actually necessary/relevant.

Here's what I think: if you play really 'exploitably' in every situation you guys find yourselves in at micros and try to do what you think is most +EV in that situation, then your win rate will be way better than if you try to factor in your attempt at being unexploitable/balanced. If you do the latter, 97 times/100 you'll be making plays that are less +EV for no long term gain and confusing yourself to the point that you really suck at making the play that will earn you the most money.

@spoonitnow, I find this increasing obsession with exploitability/balance worrying because it's analogous to a beginner trying to play chess like Karpov or Capablanca etc. He could crush his fishy opponents just by getting better at tactics and defeating them tactically (cos they suck at tactics), but instead he plays the catalan and 1. Nf3 and all sorts of stuff he doesn't understand and isn't anything close to the best way to beat his opponents. He could just skewer the rook and be up the exchange, but he'd rather make sure his opponent gets a backward pawn instead.

Back to poker: just make shitloads of +EV plays and win. /rant

That sounds like a good explanation of why an exploitative strategy far outweighs a balanced strategy at fishy tables.

Just to make it clear, I wasn't trying to say that balance was better or worse than exploitation. I was saying that learning about those ideas and starting to understand them is exactly the kind of thing that will have someone ready to move up and out of the micros.

Learning to truly play with partial knowledge (instead of button mashing because you've read or been told what is "good play") is why learning ranges is vital to the BC. As I start to really intuitively understand my own ranges in different situations, then it's logical to consider villains' ranges next. I'm getting pretty adept at slapping ranges on villains... not that I'm necessarily good at it, but that's OK, that's why I'm here.

I feel like the only reason I'm still in the micros is just steady grind and taking my time to not rush headlong into a disaster. I've shown a consistent winrate at 5NL and 10NL and I feel like I'm no better than most of the posters here. *sigh* I'm not bragging, I'm saying that I think the basics are really all you need in the micros... then a lot of grinding to drive those ideas into you step by step so that more and more intuitive play frees up mental energy on something new to learn.

For me, learning to adjust my bet-sizing to board texture was something that I picked up in short order. All I had to do was realize that I've seen 10's of thousands of flops that that there is no way that I don't have a deeply intuitive sense of flop texture... all I had to do was bring that latent information to the forefront and it clicked right in.

I wish ranges would do the same.

Originally Posted by WeaselT

something like this mebbe?

thanks Weasel - a lot of value in there

Robb - he seems to have disappeared again, tho

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

@Pascal: here ya go. i think this is kosher...

Now comes that to what you said here:

i'm 3Betting from the blinds for value and frequently as re-steals vs. weak CO/BTN steal ranges, and vs. hi steal % + hi fold to re-steal % villains

from the BTN i'm 3Betting for value, and also looking for spots to bluff weak CO opens and spots to exploit v low or v hi fold-to-3Bet raisers.

You're 3betting a lot from SB and BB but you're getting called a lot. This means you're playing weak hands out of position in 3bet pots often - around 44% of the time when you 3bet out of the blinds you end up playing out of position. This is contributing to you not following up flop cbets than turn cbets because the pots are growing too big for you to feel comfortable to double barrel.

On the other hand, when you 3bet from the CO or BTN you get to play in position, and the percentages of when they call are noticeably higher. This means you're getting to play 3bet pots in position a lot more, which gives you a good advantage.

Someone else can add more or correct me hopefully