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Question about an odd situation-Replies Appreciated

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  1. #1

    Default Question about an odd situation-Replies Appreciated

    Scenario: Final 8 players at a Texas Hold'em Bar Tournament Freeroll Event.
    Players take turns dealing and play was resuming after a 10 minute break period.



    Situation: UTG limps in to call $600. which was the current big blind.
    The next 5 players fold.
    The Dealer announces All in and pushes his $2700. stack across the bet line.
    Small blind was not back from break and his hand was mucked.
    Big blind folds.
    Dealer did not notice live player in the hand and thought the hand was over. Small blind was still not back from break so current dealer announced he would deal again and placed his hand on top of the deck. This was seen by several players on the table and it was announced that UTG was still active in the hand and had not made a decision yet. The dealer removed his hand from the top of the deck to wait UTG decision.


    Question: Is the dealers hand automatically dead when it is placed on top of the deck?
    Is UTG then awarded the pot


    Actual result at the table: The Tournament manager allowed the UTG to decide if the hand was dead. UTG said no and decided to fold. Dealer was awarded the pot. Tournament manager would have awarded the pot to UTG if he called the hand dead.

    Intention of the dealer was clear to those present. His obvious mistake was also clear. Was the manager's decision correct?
    What would you have done as the UTG? as the manager? as the dealer?
    Is there anything in normal rules to cover this situation?
  2. #2
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    If this were a casino with a professional dealer, then provided there was no doubt about the "mucked" cards, then dealer's cards could be returned to him, UTG can make a decision, the hand could resume. A casino would have this covered in their T&Cs, I know this because I played recently in Brighton and was sensible enough to read their policies before playing.

    Since the player who shoved is the dealer himself, it's a little more complicated. It's his mistake, he mucked his own hand. The manager would be acting fairly if he declared the dealer's hand dead, but asking UTG is probably acceptable, because it allows UTG to decide if the cards the dealer returned to himself we definitely the cards he was dealt. If UTG is under any doubt, the hand is dead. UTG was kind to the button here, but honest. Fair play to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    It's interesting actually that the manager said that if UTG called, it was his pot uncontested. That implies doubt.

    UTG has basically been asked if he would have called the shove if not for the mistake, and if not, lucky dealer.

    I think it's either a case of killing the hand if there is doubt (UTG wins), or allowing it to continue at UTG's discretion if there is no doubt.

    The action the manager took is questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    Thanks for your thoughtful response on this. I wrestled with the rightness or wrongness of the situation. I came to the conclusion that when odd ball situations arise which no established rule adequately addresses then the manager has the final decision. UTG certainly cut the dealer a break!
  5. #5
    Thanks for your thoughtful response on this. I wrestled with the rightness or wrongness of the situation. I came to the conclusion that when odd ball situations arise which no established rule adequately addresses then the manager has the final decision. UTG certainly cut the dealer a break!
  6. #6
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    You're welcome.

    I came to the conclusion that when odd ball situations arise which no established rule adequately addresses then the manager has the final decision.
    This is certainly the case. However, if they have any sort of written policy beyond the basic rules of poker, this should be covered.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    technically UTGs hand should have been killed after the last card was delt. at least b&m rules n reg. if your not in your seat by the time the last card is delt your hand is dead. ive seen it and have been the dead hand, even though my cards where in front of as i sat. tournaments 100%. cash ,meh, more of a who/where you are grey area. at my local b&m ive seen the most outlandish things go down in the pokerroom. all bc of bottomless ,but constantly overflowing pit, that is someones bank account
  8. #8
    also your bar had a poker tourney manager thats odd or did i miss read that
  9. #9
    Next time you're at one of these games, you should emphatically suggest that someone volunteer to be the permanent dealer for every hand. Even if that person is an active player in the game, shit will just be ALOT easier if you pick the fastest guy, and let him deal every single time.

    The right thing for the "manager" to do here would be to keep the guy's hand live. That has very little to do with poker rules, and more about what's operationally practical for running a poker game of this nature.

    If you're going to be a rules sticker over what's mucked and not mucked, then you can't be letting the common-folk deal. If you're gonna run your game like this, then you need to allow some wiggle room. If it was obvious, or even semi-obvious to everyone at the table that the top two cards belonged to the dealer, then there really shouldn't be a problem. You just accept that funky shit is gonna happen when 10 different people touch the deck, and move on.

    It would have been a bad decision for the floor manager to muck the guy's hand and basically bust him out of the tournament.

    Yet somehow, unbelievably, the manager made an even worse decision. Leaving it up to the UTG player was horri-bad. You basically told the guy, that the cards don't matter. With a single word here, you can choose between folding away 600, or busting a player and taking all of his money without a showdown. Why have a floor manager in the first place if this is what's going to happen?

    It's mind-blowing that the UTG player chose to lose money instead of bust a player. But I'm sure peer pressure was heavily in effect.

    And as a general overall note, I'd say that your concern over what the "right thing to do" here does not compute with your presence in this game in the first place. If it's important to you that the game be run professionally, then this is probably not the place to be spending your time.

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