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QQ facing 3bet in position

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  1. #1

    Default QQ facing 3bet in position

    Guy was 33/9 over 30 hands, this was his first 3bet, no postflop reads.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    Hero (UTG+1) ($5.05)
    MP1 ($2.14)
    MP2 ($2.05)
    CO ($5)
    Button ($5.12)
    SB ($4.12)
    BB ($3)
    UTG ($2.41)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, Q
    1 fold, Hero bets $0.20, 4 folds, SB raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

    Flop: ($1.05) 10, 6, 2 (2 players)
    SB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

    Turn: ($2.25) 9 (2 players)
    SB bets $1.50,

    Pre and flop seem standard to me, feels like I'm getting value towned on the turn but I have the equity to call assuming his betting range is JJ+. Do we just call/call take note?
  2. #2
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    I'd call it down, take a note and reload if necessary.

    Edit: If he checks a blank river then I'd shove.

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  3. #3
    supa's Avatar
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    Meh, I'd expect he's barreling plenty of Ax type hands and pps. Dunno if we're crushing here but def calling down.
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  4. #4
    QQ as an overpair against a relative unknown with a 80bb stack in a 3bet pot. Find a way to get the money in. If you don't want to raise the flop which is ok I guess, the turn is a totally standard shove now.
  5. #5
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  6. #6
    bikes's Avatar
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    ?wut
  7. #7
    Vinland's Avatar
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    I call down.

    Why are we raising flop EasyPoker? He's folding everything he's willing to barrel, no?
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinland View Post
    I call down.

    Why are we raising flop EasyPoker? He's folding everything he's willing to barrel, no?
    Because I'm an aggrofish who's thinking about getting the money in asap.
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bikes View Post
    I hate that you always say what I think, yet I'm not nearly as good at you at poker. I fucking hate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyPoker View Post
    Because I'm an aggrofish who's thinking about getting the money in asap.
    If that's the case then why didn't you suggest trying to get it in pre with a 4bet to about $1.25?

    Raising the flop gets him to fold out all of the trash that he's willing to continue to bluff with.
    Last edited by Jarhead; 12-12-2011 at 10:45 PM.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackRain79 View Post
    QQ as an overpair against a relative unknown with a 80bb stack in a 3bet pot. Find a way to get the money in. If you don't want to raise the flop which is ok I guess, the turn is a totally standard shove now.
    raising turns is almost always a retarded idea in nlhe

    i mean, theres just usually a way better alternative
  12. #12
    Are you OK with raising the turn with a polarized range? semi-bluffing turns?
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  13. #13
    rpm's Avatar
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    raising flop sucks imo. i just call/call/call. no need to jam the turn given he only calls with 6 worse combos and 12 better ones (even worse if he happens to 3bet TT pre some non-zero %).
    Last edited by rpm; 12-14-2011 at 04:09 AM.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    raising turns is almost always a retarded idea in nlhe

    i mean, theres just usually a way better alternative
    Do you mind elaborating on this blanket statement? Why do you think this is the case?
  15. #15
    bikes's Avatar
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    raising the turn with ~100bb is almost always an lol play

    ?wut
  16. #16
    I'm glad they got their "almost" in, saves me being pedantic and posting examples where raising the turn would be correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm glad they got their "almost" in, saves me being pedantic and posting examples where raising the turn would be correct.
    i doubt you have any, when i say almost i mean 95%+

    ?wut
  18. #18
    Bikes, please elaborate.
    [20:19] <Zill4> god
    [20:19] <Zill4> u guys
    [20:19] <Zill4> so fking hopeless
    [20:19] <Zill4> and dumb
  19. #19
    Ok, hero holds 99 on the button, we 3bet mp's open, villain flats, flop comes A92 rainbow, villain c/r, hero flats the raise, turn comes Qh and puts a flush draw on the board (9 is other heart), villain leads turn, remaining stacks are 100bb each... hero?

    Hero holds JTs on bb, MP opens, sb calls, hero calls. Flop is Q9A giving us flush draw and obv oesd. sb checks, hero checks, villain bets, sb folds, hero raises, villain 3bets, hero calls. Turn is 8, no flush. Hero checks, villain bets, effective stacks >100bb... hero?

    Surely, as played, raising the turn in both of these examples is correct? I realise there's probably a better way to play both hands, I'm just throwing quick examples out there for the sake of argument, but flatting the turn seems horrible in both cases when villain has sufficiently strong range to be stacking off on turn, and there's usually outs for him to catch up.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #20
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    I think that's the point you play the other streets correct and you hardly ever have to raise the turn
  21. #21
    If that's the point bikes and m2m are making, then fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyPoker View Post
    Bikes, please elaborate.
    Elaborate yourself! I think we nailed the point they were making between myself and kickass, I sort of realised what they were saying as I was making up these hands, in both cases I'm thinking we could play the flop better, and neither bikes nor m2m had to explain themselves. One thing you need to learn about some members of this site, bikes and m2m being two of them, is that they don't like to spoon feed people, they give you the basics and expect you to do the thinking. Ask yourself why two very good poker players say that raising turn is usually retarded, it might not be clear at first but if you want to improve your game, you have to figure some shit out for yourself.

    I'm still not convinced, but then I assume that I'm not playing the flop optimally, rather than bikes and m2m are making dumb comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Ok, hero holds 99 on the button, we 3bet mp's open, villain flats, flop comes A92 rainbow, villain c/r, hero flats the raise, turn comes Qh and puts a flush draw on the board (9 is other heart), villain leads turn, remaining stacks are 100bb each... hero?

    Hero holds JTs on bb, MP opens, sb calls, hero calls. Flop is Q9A giving us flush draw and obv oesd. sb checks, hero checks, villain bets, sb folds, hero raises, villain 3bets, hero calls. Turn is 8, no flush. Hero checks, villain bets, effective stacks >100bb... hero?

    Surely, as played, raising the turn in both of these examples is correct? I realise there's probably a better way to play both hands, I'm just throwing quick examples out there for the sake of argument, but flatting the turn seems horrible in both cases when villain has sufficiently strong range to be stacking off on turn, and there's usually outs for him to catch up.
    Both those examples are deeper than 100bb and bikes did say "with ~100BB".
  24. #24
    bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Ok, hero holds 99 on the button, we 3bet mp's open, villain flats, flop comes A92 rainbow, villain c/r, hero flats the raise, turn comes Qh and puts a flush draw on the board (9 is other heart), villain leads turn, remaining stacks are 100bb each... hero?

    Hero holds JTs on bb, MP opens, sb calls, hero calls. Flop is Q9A giving us flush draw and obv oesd. sb checks, hero checks, villain bets, sb folds, hero raises, villain 3bets, hero calls. Turn is 8, no flush. Hero checks, villain bets, effective stacks >100bb... hero?

    Surely, as played, raising the turn in both of these examples is correct? I realise there's probably a better way to play both hands, I'm just throwing quick examples out there for the sake of argument, but flatting the turn seems horrible in both cases when villain has sufficiently strong range to be stacking off on turn, and there's usually outs for him to catch up.

    hero calls hand 1. shoves river
    hero calls and evaluates where to c/rai or lead river.

    ?wut
  25. #25
    bikes's Avatar
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    since im not doing anything at the moment

    in hand 1. villian's hands calling a shove are AAA and 222 mebbe A9 and A2 but discounted. AK mebbe. pot is 3b so the pot is already really big esp since villian c/r the flop

    so in this imaginary scenario, mp opens to 3 hero 3bets to 9 mp calls plus blinds there is 19.5 bb in the pot

    hero cbets to 10 bbs villian c/r to 27. so now like 73.5bbs in pot.

    villian bets turn for 31bbs hero calls. 165bbs in pot. effective stacks either 100bb left or 70bb left

    villian for some reason checks river, hero jams 100bb or 70bb into 165 forcing villian to call his entire non bluff range cause of odds. which is AK, 222 and AQ. if villian was bluffing you give him one final street to do it, if hes bluffing hes def not calling your turn shove and frankly you give him a chance to fold a large part of his value range by jamming the turn.


    hand 2 mp opens for 3 sb and bb flat 9bbs in pot
    villian bets 6 otf, hero c/r to 19. villian 3bs to 38 hero calls. so liek 85bbs in pot.

    hero should have lead the turn as 8o is not a card villian will bluff if he was bluffing. and villain will jam his 99 AA QQ and mebbe his AQ, if not jam villain will certainly call and then hero can jam river

    by crai you are never bluffing and tbh i would fold everything but QQ and AA and i would still not be thrilled about it and you stack those hands every time otr anyway and you can play perfectly otr by not c/rai on the turn

    ?wut
  26. #26
    great explanation bikes.

    I don't have any examples, but how about semibluff-shoving the turn?
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  27. #27
    bikes's Avatar
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    if you want to ever bluff rivers you should not semi bluff shove turns imo.

    ?wut
  28. #28
    Thanks for that post bikes.

    I think the only examples that I can perhaps give that indicate we definitely should be raising the turn is when we know villain continues with worse, such as top pair hands when we have a set, and there's plenty of chips behind that we're not getting in on the river.

    If I were to say villain is running at 45/5, is on the CO and we're on BU, notes on villain says "b/c tptk and better at any price on any board, b/c flush draw at any price" and we flop the nut straight on 2tone flop, and he leads out, we raise flop, he calls, then surely we're raising him ott if he leads into us again? I guess that's in your <5% though, we're raising turn because we know he sucks too much to fold anything he's betting with.

    *edit - assume deep stacks!
    Last edited by OngBonga; 12-17-2011 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #29
    That's also an awesome answer, thanks.

    First thing I thought of was, "if we don't semi-bluff raise the turn, what happens to our turn-raising range?" But obviously we won't have one.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.

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