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Problem: I Can't learn poker

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  1. #1

    Default Problem: I Can't learn poker

    This is not a whine thread, whining doesn't solve anything.

    I'm going to do more homework on poker this week than I have all year.

    But in all honesty, I just can't grasp the concept of this game. I'll read a few pages from a book every now and then and while I can grasp individual facts and concepts, it would appear I have an extremely low reading retention rate at least for the topic of poker.

    Some advice I get is outright contradictory to other pieces of advice I get. One guy was sweating me, I flopped trips on a two tone board, so I bet, the guy told me "Don't do that, you should always check your trips". Ok so I started checking my trips and then betting turn and river. My friend and one of his friends then sweat me, they watch me play trips and I check the flop and they're like "Why are you checking there? You should always bet trips on the flop" HUh?

    One hand the other day I was letting someone sweat me because I assumed he was better than me, he got me into a 360bb pot with 3rd set against a deep stack and told me to call a 92bb river bet making for a 360bb pot on showdown with 3rd set on a four to a straight board with 2 overs that hit his perceived range hard and ANy Q beat me and the two superior sets beat me, particularly when there were huge bets on the flop and turn as well. Of course the guy showed up with the stone cold nuts not that that should be surprising to anyone.

    As soon as I moved up to 50nl I got hammered back down to 25nl, I've lost 9 buy ins at 50nl in only 2873 hands and am averaging -31bb/100. Today alone I lost 4.5 buy ins at 50nl which is probably going to take a weeks worth of grinding at 25nl to get back if not two weeks worth of 8 hour days given my win rate which is like 6bb/100 at 25nl.

    I gather people who attempt to coach me get extremely frustrated with me because I just don't understand the game. I don't mind playing it, I'm actually capable of crushing 25nl. Except for the worst of the worst players, it appears that most people have a much easier time learning this game than I do.

    My friend says of all the people he's tried to teach poker too I am the worst poker player by far.

    For example I had AQo UTG. Two Poker documents advocate raising from this position 4bb as opposed to my usual 3x, so I did that. The flaw I ran into was I was only doing this with premium hands. BTN calls my unusal raise size. Flop comes AK3 rainbow. I bet, he calls, turns a brick, I bet huge on turn, nearly pot, he calls. river is another complete and total brick, I'm beating virtually all the aces but for a scant few two pairs and of course the AK. I shove what was left of what was once a 100bb stack, and he calls and flips AK. And my friend was so mad at me that he said the guy had picked up that my 4x raise had tipped him off to my given hand strength and essentially trapped me.

    I got a friend who is a very good poker player, I would definitely say he's a full time professional to be exact. He's very upset that I'm still bad at the game and I play hands horrendously despite having played Online Poker for 4 years. I have all the software programs, he's given me tons of reading materials, right now he wants me to play around with Flopzilla for a week to get an idea of equity and when villains can continue in a hand and when they can not.

    I was trying to appease him, I had the "No Bullshit 6-max" poker document pulled up while I only played a mere 2 tables, which is a very short book by BestPokerCoaching.com and was trying to the best of my ability to play according to that document (although there were concepts I missed and misread boards, and adjustments I failed to make today which lead to further losses) and I feel it was so different from how I usually played plus there were a few sentences here and there that I missed that it lead me to playing a losing poker game as opposed to a winning poker game. It was making him frustrated that the document that was suppose to help me get a good start in my shot at 50nl was actually butchering the game because I failed to comprehend key concepts and advice in the document, at one point he said if I was there he would slap me if I pulled up the document one more time or referenced it as the sole reason why I made the play I did.

    Not really sure what to do, friend says he's going to quiz me on Flopzilla and NoBullshit 6-max in a week and if I fail his tests he'll tell me best of luck but he no longer wants to remain friends with me.

    I'm putting this in the beginner sections despite having played for 4 years because I think if you talked to him he'd tell you I still play like a beginner.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 04-28-2016 at 11:59 PM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Over and over I'm getting the theme that you want to know "what" to do to be a winning player, but you shy away from "why" it's done. You'll probably need to be vigilant to ask deeper questions about poker for a while if you want to get out of this rut.

    Poker is a thinking game which requires diligent study to excel at. You seem to put in the study time, but your focus is off. Always be asking why something is recommended and not just what is recommended.

    I hope your friend was joking about slapping you, but he's right that if your reason for doing something is that you were told (and nothing more), then that's not an intelligent, grown-up reason to do anything.


    Anyway, your friend who said the AK called you because you were broadcasting your range is prob. not right, based on that hand. Like, was that villain EVER folding AK? PRE? OTF? no. He had AK and if there is any evidence he even noticed your range PRE it was that he didn't 3-bet you. Once the flop falls and you hit TPTK and he has top 2 pair, you're going to lose some money. It happens. It's not necessarily indicative that Villain put you on your hand.

    Even still, AQo should be near the bottom of your UTG range (I fold AQ UTG if it's 9-handed; AQo is weak when you're that OOP PRE). You shouldn't be playing a wide range UTG, and that alone is broadcasting your range, this is partially why you are motivated to open raise to more than your standard amount. It's already obvious that you are on a strong range by your position, so the increased bet size gives nothing away.
  3. #3
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    MMM - since he's using NoBs its likely that its 6max.

    OP - have you won your way to 50nl from profits or are you depositing to play those stakes as the way that you talk it doesn't look like you have actually ground the bankroll up to play the highe stakes.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    MMM - since he's using NoBs its likely that its 6max.

    OP - have you won your way to 50nl from profits or are you depositing to play those stakes as the way that you talk it doesn't look like you have actually ground the bankroll up to play the highe stakes.
    My bankroll is $3000, I grinded it up over the course of close to 3 years from $30. I estimate I'm making pennies on the hour.
  5. #5
    Your study is massively ineffective & lazy.

    It should be obvious from your post why this is, I'd suggest reading your post and thinking where it applies.
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    friend says he's going to quiz me on Flopzilla and NoBullshit 6-max in a week and if I fail his tests he'll tell me best of luck but he no longer wants to remain friends with me.
    I'd make it a point to avoid using the word "friend" to describe this person.
    It sure sounds like he doesn't respect you.
    It sounds like he's a jerk who bases his appreciation of your personality on what you have memorized, rather than how you approach your life goals.

    I mean, hey, don't let some internet stranger pick your friends for you, either.


    ***
    If you've grinded up your own BR from $30 to $3k, then you understand this game a lot more than you are giving yourself credit for.

    Post some hands with your reads on Villains and we'll walk you through the thought processes that work for us. Just make sure you disabuse yourself of the idea that you can memorize some set of rules and be a top expert player. The top experts are constantly making adjustments to the live action. They are constantly poking around the edges of their understanding and they're willing to commit reasonable amounts of their personal time to figuring out the math behind the game.

    We can help you with all of these things, but I promise you now that it will not amount to you learning things like, "always check OTF with trips." because there are no statements so simple that will actually make you a better player.
  7. #7
    [IMG][/IMG]


    As you can see I'm crushing 25nl and getting crushed in 50nl.

    He had this guide I was suppose to follow from no bullshit 6-max by Bestpokercoaching.com but it made no adjustment to play styles and barely ever let me 3bet or 4bet. For example lets say I have JJ in the BB, UTG would raise 3bb, CO would call, and BTN would call. I referenced the guide that he said would make me a winning player at long last. Guide says nothing about squeezing here it said to only 3bet or 4bet UTG PFR'rs with KK or AA and certainly had no section about multiway pots, it was seemingly missing from the text, even though I squeeze here everytime with JJ. So what would wind up happening is I'd play JJ multiway oop without any of the initiative if I had 3bet because I followed a guide but it seemed to be leading me to play really badly at 50nl when I tried it.

    I'm thinking about quitting allowing people tell me how to play because I've gotten some dumb poker advice in my time (Like the guy who told me to call the 92bb river bet with 3rd set on a 4 to a straight board deep stacked 200bb against another 200bb deep stack) IMO thinking about pots I lost when someone sweating me told me to make a play I otherwise would never have done.

    I've allowed people to tell me how to play including that shitty guide from No BUllshit 6-max because he reinforces the belief that I am one of the worst poker players he's ever come across and virtually everyone he knows is a better poker player than me.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 04-30-2016 at 04:03 AM.
  8. #8
    One hand where I lost a $100 pot yesterday, I 3bet with KK from SB, this LAG called from CO. Flop comes 10JQ. Ordinarily I tread on boards with 3 broadways very lightly. I reference the guide on 3bet pots as the aggressor, it says

    "Flop
    • Same rules like in the single raised pot, with the only difference that you are getting
    it all‐
    in versus a raise with FD, OESD and TP as well"

    Well I got OESD and TP as well (guide makes no references to overpairs, just Top Pair). Where without the guide I would have maybe check called and reevaluate on the turn, the guide says this is a spot to get it all in if I get raised, so I lead out, I get raised, I get it all in, guy shows up with J10o, and his bottom 2 pair hold on river, deducting $50 from my poker bankroll.

    Then when my friend reviews the hand he heavily criticizes that I went broke with KK on a board with 3 broadways in a 3bet pot. But I never go broke with an over pair on a board with 3 broadways! The guide told me to go broke here, HIS GUIDE that he told me to follow if I wanted to win at 50nl.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 04-30-2016 at 04:23 AM.
  9. #9
    Some tough love due here.

    It really sounds to me like you want to be handed a simple set of rules that will make you a ton of money. Those days are long gone if you want to beat 50nl+. You therefore need to decide if you're happy to beat 25nl for a decent clip, or try and ladder up by having a much better approach to study. Your first point should be to post some hands on this forum and outline your thought process.

    You alsoneed to be aware of how shocking variance can be in today's games, where edges are thin and most players struggle to beat the rake. Losing 6BI EV in 3k hands is not even coming close to being outside a normal range for a small winner.

    KK hand: you need to be plugging this into Equilab. once you do, you'll realise this is likely a marginal spot not worth tilting about.
  10. #10
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Any advice you hear which doesn't prompt you to think about the villain and to make an educated guess at his ranges before and after he responds to your play is bad advice.

    Any advice you hear which tells you how to play based solely on your own position, your own cards and the board is bad advice.

    Your goal is not to beat the deck, it's to beat the other players at the table.

    OK, well... "You should never fold the nuts." is good advice. However, it doesn't tell you whether to bet, x/c or x/r the hand. You must consider how these different lines effect Villain's ranges to evaluate these 3 choices. You should consider how his responses effect your EV and choose your play to maximize EV.

    There are many times in poker when you go all-in expecting to lose the hand 66% of the time or more, but you would still go all-in every time you had the chance because the times you win, though infrequent, are worth so much $$ that they makes up for the frequent losses.

    As an extreme example, let's say there is a pot of $95 OTT and somehow, Villain is left with an all in bet of $5. Your call of $5 to win $100 means that you only need to win 5% of the time to break even. So if you have at least 3 outs (6.5% chance to hit your draw), you should call. You know you're going to lose $5 93.5% of the time, but that 6.5% that you win is worth $100 and you still make money in the long run. Whereas if you fold to his $5 bet, you make exactly $0 in the long run.


    Your goal is not to win hands, it's to make every decision in every hand a +EV decision. Furthermore, your goal is to always be trying to find a more +EV way to play every hand. Just because something is +EV doesn't mean that it is the most +EV thing you could have done.
  11. #11
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Who here is crushing 50nl or higher? Doesn't sound like he's a bad player relative to most of us here.

    I'll admit I'm surprised you've been opening premiums UTG x4 but your AQ/KQ etc x3, and getting away with it for so long. 10nl and down you'll get away with that, but I'd expect you to get fucked at 25nl playing so face up.

    Some advice I get is outright contradictory to other pieces of advice I get. One guy was sweating me, I flopped trips on a two tone board, so I bet, the guy told me "Don't do that, you should always check your trips". Ok so I started checking my trips and then betting turn and river. My friend and one of his friends then sweat me, they watch me play trips and I check the flop and they're like "Why are you checking there? You should always bet trips on the flop" HUh?
    This is interesting. Neither of your poker pals here have given you good advice.

    You should not "always" be doing anything with trips on the flop, with the exception of "not folding". There are multiple factors to consider, for example... position, pot size, action, anyone left behind, remaining stacks, board texture... and, most importantly, villain tendancies and range. If you're out of position having called a raise pre flop, villain is cbetting a lot but folding to raises often, and rarely floating light, then check/calling is probably going to be the strongest play by far. However, if villain is an idiot who will call or even raise with weak hands, especially when facing a donk bet because he sees it as an attempt to steal his pre flop raise or something like that, then betting into him is an excellent idea.

    Let me be clear... I'm not successful at poker. I've flirted with 50nl at times and fared well but I've never crushed 25nl. But I can at least identify one problem you're having... you're paying too much respect to people who think they know what they're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    At the risk of a minor derail, I just took the "donk bet" link and it tells me it's a "deliberately oversized or disproportionate bet made for strategic reasons, so named because it looks like a bet that might be made by a poor player".

    I was under the impression that a donk bet was to bet out of position against the pre flop raiser. That's what I mean in the post above, anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
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    I'll add this nugget...

    When I flop a set, my thought process is "how to get the money in?". Literally the first thing I'm thinking about is villain tendancies. Is he bad or good? What will he do if I bet? What will he do if I check? That's when I start thinking about his range, and the board texture.

    If you "always" do a thing in poker, then you're making exactly the same mistake as you did when you got fucked opening AQ x3.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'll add this nugget...

    When I flop a set, my thought process is "how to get the money in?". Literally the first thing I'm thinking about is villain tendancies. Is he bad or good? What will he do if I bet? What will he do if I check? That's when I start thinking about his range, and the board texture.

    If you "always" do a thing in poker, then you're making exactly the same mistake as you did when you got fucked opening AQ x3.
    Well thanks for being nice and respectful guys. I was really afraid this thread would come off as a "whine thread" something that I'm notorious for in my skype groups but hopefully it hasn't come this way.

    I agree with the line that but for the stone cold nuts, there really isn't any "Always do this" and "Never do this" in this game.

    Well I think if my coach/friend lets me play my own game, because you can clearly in that picture I provided between now and February 15th I've made about 60 buy ins at 25nl in 71,000 hands, that if I can move this success at this stake level to 50nl then I'll be making for me what would seem like a solid income.

    RIght now the only thing I'm working on in my game is not getting upset or whining and bitching if I get bad beated. It was quite remarkable that I didn't whine at all that day I lost 4.5 buy ins at 50nl and didn't whine once, literally weeks ago I would have been in a funk around the house over it, but that's what I'm working on atm.
  15. #15
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    Well I think if my coach/friend lets me play my own game, because you can clearly in that picture I provided between now and February 15th I've made about 60 buy ins at 25nl in 71,000 hands, that if I can move this success at this stake level to 50nl then I'll be making for me what would seem like a solid income.
    Just so you are prepared, be aware that it is generally not the case that you win at the same rate (in bb/100 hands) when you move up in stakes. Just like you'd expect to be crushing 10NL harder than you crush 25NL. The 10NL players are generally not as good and you can win more, albeit smaller, bets from them. So when you step up to 50NL, expect the players to be generally better* and that your winrate in bb/100 will probably be less than it is at 25NL. So long as it's not 1/2 as much, though... it's still more profitable to keep at 50NL than it is to step back down to 25NL... since stepping down to 25NL would be 1/2 the value per bb.


    *As you have said yourself, if you can beat 50NL at a decent rate, you can earn a living income. This applies to everyone. So the step from 25NL up to 50NL is a bigger step than most others. There are actually pro players (meaning they earn their living playing poker) at 50NL. There are fewer recreational players (fish) in the player pool.
  16. #16
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    how closely did you read the intro for NoBS or specifically the "what i do is turn losing or mediocre poker players into big winners" and "Warning: This book is only the start. Don't look at one strategyand say "OMG THat is so dumb". youneed to look at the big picture...........You will read stuff that will upset you and that is ok ............I'm here to make you a winner.........."


    It isn't designed to get someone beating 25nl to crush 50nl, its designed to get losing players to start at 2nl an actually start winning by cutting out lots of their leaks. It plays against population trends rather than adjusting for individual opponents. AT that it it does a good job , but then you are expected to keep buying more and more of his books/courses/ coaching for profits etc to add extra skills on top of these basic skills to increase winrates or move up and beat higher stakes.
  17. #17
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    I agree with the line that but for the stone cold nuts, there really isn't any "Always do this" and "Never do this" in this game.
    It seems you're missing the point somewhat. Even the stone cold nuts isn't a case of "always do this", unless you're calling an all in of course. If you flop the nut flush, for example, the question of whether to bet or not is based first and foremost on how you expect your opponent to repsond. You don't want him to fold. Is he likely to if you bet? Then check. But you don't want to miss value. Is he likely to call a bet? Then bet. You have to ask the question "what will villain do if I bet or check" pretty much every time you face that decision.

    If you "always" do this or that, then you're playing a robotic face-up style of poker, which, while it might be profitable at low stakes, you're going to be exploited to fuck higher up because skilled players pay attention to what others are doing and adjust their game to suit the opponent they face. That's why always checking or betting a set on the flop is bad. You should be doing both.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #18
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    I would say I probably "always" check the flop when I flop aces full (with AA) or better, even in PLO. But in NLHE it happens so rarely that for the sake of this discussion, it's practically worthless to consider.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #19
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Well thanks for being nice and respectful guys. I was really afraid this thread would come off as a "whine thread" something that I'm notorious for in my skype groups but hopefully it hasn't come this way.
    Oh, and this... noone here cares if you want to whine, so long as there's a point. Your OP is detailed and honest, you don't profess to know more than you do, you accept your failings. That's what's important. Your tone is that of someone who wants to improve and is willing to hear brutal truths without crying about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #20
    Mostly just a lurker here, but in regards to "never fold the nuts"

    Saw this in a 5/10 live game I observed.

    Three limps and the flop is KJT, checks through. Turn is Q and brings a spade draw. V1 bets 30, V2 calls, V3 Raises to $230, V1 Raises to $1300, V2 calls for less, V3 shoves, V1 calls. Shitloads of money in the pot, everyone has an ace. Just V3 has the spade draw and it hit.

    V2 for sure could have folded the nuts, and not felt bad about it at all. He's really only calling to chop and win back 4BB's
  21. #21
    In my experience (13 years?) nobody can look to master poker in as short of time as you'd like. You can't be given a simple set of rules to turn around then make a run for the gold pot it just doesn't work that way. Winning 25nl for some minor bragging rights is cool, but you can succeed more from studying and watching other players.

    Don't let your "slow learning" deter you from trying harder next time, as there will be a next time if you stay focused and take baby steps. I'm sorry that your "friend" makes you feel inferior to his playing skills.

    When I began playing poker I just couldn't grasp the concept right away but my older brother (Former Marine and built with the patience of steel) he patiently walked me through it answering all of (and there were a lot of questions) my questions until I was able to fly on my own.

    Don't let anyone bully you but remember you can't come here expecting sympathy from anyone if you want a "get rich quick" from playing. Don't give up and sell yourself short. There are always people that take a bit longer than others to succeed at something, but once they get it, they end up being the top in the game. I remember when algebra took me forever to grasp but once I "got it" I was tutoring people in my class so they could graduate. Wow! I type a lot.
  22. #22
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Mostly just a lurker here, but in regards to "never fold the nuts"

    Saw this in a 5/10 live game I observed.

    Three limps and the flop is KJT, checks through. Turn is Q and brings a spade draw. V1 bets 30, V2 calls, V3 Raises to $230, V1 Raises to $1300, V2 calls for less, V3 shoves, V1 calls. Shitloads of money in the pot, everyone has an ace. Just V3 has the spade draw and it hit.

    V2 for sure could have folded the nuts, and not felt bad about it at all. He's really only calling to chop and win back 4BB's
    He limped ace rag, that was a bigger mistake that calling all in with the nuts. How often is he stacking off three way vs 2 aces, with one drawing to the flush? Not very often at all. How often does someone overplay a set in these kind of spots? More often. I don't think it was a mistake to call. Of course, after you see the result, it's easy to say you can get away from it, but unless people literally have their hands face up, this is never actually going to be folded.

    I've seen a friend fold the nuts on the flop in PLO, having seen her bet raised then raised again before the action came back round to her. The other two stacked off and she was up against nuts+set, and wrap+nfd. The board paired.

    That was a fantastic fold, but that's PLO. I'd say anyone who folds the nuts in NLHE is making a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #23
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    We can fold the nuts in tournament games where the prize is a ticket, we're at bubble with a big stack, and a bigger stack puts us in before river.

    But not in this example. TT/JJ/QQ can limp in, maybe even KK, and a set can stack off on turn because people drool with three jacks or whatever. I've seen it more times that I've seen three way chops at the turn get sucked.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    He limped ace rag, that was a bigger mistake that calling all in with the nuts. How often is he stacking off three way vs 2 aces, with one drawing to the flush? Not very often at all. How often does someone overplay a set in these kind of spots? More often. I don't think it was a mistake to call. Of course, after you see the result, it's easy to say you can get away from it, but unless people literally have their hands face up, this is never actually going to be folded..
    I think you and I could probably have some very passionate debates on the differences between live and online poker. I realize that online, which is what this site is about, most people are at least somewhat balanced, and have ranges, etc. In live poker, that all goes out the window. I would bet my house, car, and 1.5 of my lungs that everybody has an ace here.

    I didn't mention exact stack sizes, but assuming around 100BB's, then V2 called off 960 to basically chop.

    He's basically giving his opponents a free-roll on his 960 stack in order to protect, and break even, on his $40 investment in the pot. Any flush draw should have about 15-20%. Multiply that by 960 and it's WAY more than $40. Easy fold.

    Chopping is EV neutral. We have about a 20% chance of losing about 1000 dollars, so let's call that -200.

    In order to overcome that -200, we need both V's to have a ridiculous range. The total profit we make by winning the pot outright is about 2090 if I've done my math right, so we need about a 10% chance of beating both V's. I don't see how that's even possible as the lack of pre-flop and flop action pretty much denies the possibility of two pair, or sets.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 12-05-2016 at 05:04 PM.
  25. #25
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Chopping is almost never exactly 0 EV outside of tournament play.

    The rake is usually more than the dead money from blinds.
    This makes a chop slightly -EV

    There can be more money that that in the pot, due to other players who bet/fold at some point.
    Then, it would be (perhaps not slightly) +EV to chop.
  26. #26
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    I mean even if we accept that once every million hands, we're going to find ourself in a position where folding the nuts *might* be the right thing to do, calling is still not going to hurt our winrate because it happens once every million hands. This is a ridiculous derail.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #27
    I think it's a good point Ong that comes up probably every 10k hands or so. If I have the nut straight and draw to the nut flush when it's clear villain has the nut straight, I'll rip it in huge relative to the size of the pot (and sometimes for 200bb+ effective) and get snapped off every time.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is a ridiculous derail.
    Sorry, I guess. Though the thread has been dead for 6 months.

    The amount of equity in your remaining stack that you're giving up to the flush draw far far far outweights the non-chop equity you would have against two villains. I'm not sure why that's not obvious. In order to even have a chance of winning this hand, you would need both villains to have slow played pre and post with a big pair, or broadway hand that flopped strong. And then you need both villains to decide that the appearance of a 4-liner is the green light to spaz. I'm just not seeing it.

    But we can agree to disagree I suppose. Folding the nuts is an extreme example, but I do think that there are lots of spots in live poker where "always" and "never" are totally appropriate words to use. And this is one of them. We're never winning more than 4BB's here, and we're sometimes losing a hell of a lot more.
  29. #29
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Yeah that wasn't meant as a moan, I'm more than capable of derailing threads. I just didn't think this aspect of the discussion was particularly helpful, considering the rarity of it. It's also worth noting that we would expect villains to also always get it in with the nuts when we're the ones who have the flush draw bonus. We're only ever losing rake in that spot, and it happens so rarely that our focus is better served on common spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #30
    I have the same problem. All the time I sit and try to learn the rules of poker I suck. I love your tips guys, thank you

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