Poll: Using Chat to Tilt a player is Wrong

Backstory.

Today, I was playing the dregs of 10nl, and I got my money in good against an opponent (straight flush draw against an overpair) My shove was about the size of the pot on the flop and he called, so I was getting obvious overlay.

He goes ballistic, calling me a jerk, and an idiot, and telling me I would lose my money.

I flip out... Now seriously... I'm a nice guy, usually the only thing I ever post is "NH" or I'll chat a little about a really nice play if I see one... but I flat fuckin' flip out.

I made such comments as:

--Does it hurt to be retarded? Do all of your friends make fun of you when they see you in a helmet and a diaper with drool all over your face?

--(he makes a comment about bangin' my mom..) Really? Hey man, if 350lbs, chainsmoking, herpes stations are your thing, go for it... I know retards like you have a hard time gettin' laid.. Good for you man! I mean it.

--(He's taunting me into playing him.. calling me a baby, and a rock) Hey tardboy... if you aren't smart enough to lay a mediocre hand down, I have to let my cards do the talking.. I'll get your RE-BUY soon enough.. these are your chips sitting in front of me.

--Finally he starts to break, he's calling my raises lightly and folding, telling me that I'm retarded for bluffing all the time, and that I don't have the balls to play "real poker" So I shove. but before I shove, I say: You don't have the balls to call me. and I shove. The trick is that I had 99 on the button and flopped a set... he calls. insta call, and mucks 2 overs on a dry board.

-- More taunting ensues, and he's on crazy tilt, 3-betting me with any two cards and shoving the turn no matter what he has, I keep talking crap. He's calling me an idiot and telling me that shoving AI without a pair is terribad play... I stack him with a straight flush draw again, he called me with air...

I realize this is a small brag... but I can't help but feel like taunting was a mistake, or may come back to bite me.

Good? Bad? Indifferent? I lifted 5 buy ins off this guy.

If you have time to type and argue in chat, OPEN MORE FUCKEN TABLES.

dog eat dog

i don't like preflop.

when I am on a heater and something happens in chat I play it cool. When I am on a downswing fuck everyone.

Originally Posted by jyms

If you have time to type and argue in chat, OPEN MORE FUCKEN TABLES.

yeahbut, I'm not that good. I'm still learning, and multiple tables makes me lose.

3 things.

1) First I thought you were the one tilting ("I flip out... ") and I wanted to advise calm. Although in this case you seemed to have won the tilting match please notice that when someone calls you an idiot for making a play that is actually justified by your equity and pot odds it's not something to get upset about - it's something to get pleased about. It proves you are playing against players who are dying to give you their chips. Get in more hands with them and ignore the abuse imo - knowing that you will probably consistently make better decisions.
2) Short term: Clearly +EV
3) Long term? Now you have 'history' with this guy. Will he seek you out to give you more of his money? Will he avoid you? Will he bad mouth you to other players (and will that affect their image of you in a way that is good or bad for your EV should you play against them)? Having someone else call you a poor player is much more effective at establishing an image than anything you can say or do. But if he says it in a way that shows he's a jerk (and with poor judgement) and also mentions that you stacked him 5 times in one session, it will make people conclude instead that you're a shark. And it's pretty given that he won't be shutting up.

Originally Posted by Erpel

3) Long term? Now you have 'history' with this guy. Will he seek you out to give you more of his money? Will he avoid you? Will he bad mouth you to other players (and will that affect their image of you in a way that is good or bad for your EV should you play against them)? Having someone else call you a poor player is much more effective at establishing an image than anything you can say or do. But if he says it in a way that shows he's a jerk (and with poor judgement) and also mentions that you stacked him 5 times in one session, it will make people conclude instead that you're a shark. And it's pretty given that he won't be shutting up.

This is $10nl....

shh... i'm trying to count your chips.

Originally Posted by WillburForce

This is $10nl....

Just discussing the principle of the thing really. And it being $10nl is why I put history in quotes - to indicate that you could call it history, but in the present case that's not really such a significant thing.

Ok... here are my thoughts on it, at the micros I see a lot of players who talk WAY too much.

I love the ones that fold then tell you their cards... especially when you were losing but they folded to the 3-bet.

Anyway, if you think it will tilt them a little, a little jab here and there can not hurt... but remember, if they tilt you chatting, you're getting the worst of it.

I love to say stuff like 'great hand' when they shove over with air or crap... especially if they luck out and hit a pair on the river... things like the other night I am in with QQ pre-flop, I raise to 6xBB, button re-raises to 3xmy raise, I call, flop is nothing spectacular, no overcards... I bet pot size, he calls... so I'm a little worried about a bigger pocket pair but not really... I check the turn which is a 4, he shoves his stack, which is pot sized... i call and he is sitting with 3-4 suited, total of 3 suited cards (so no flush possible)... and he hits a 3 on the river... so I immediately say "great hand" and he thinks it is a compliment. Sometimes it tilts them, sometimes they get the smart-assed comment, sometimes they don't...

But a minor tilt prompted by a comment to another player... as long as they don't re-tilt you... I love it.

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Ok... here are my thoughts on it, at the micros I see a lot of players who talk WAY too much.

I love the ones that fold then tell you their cards... especially when you were losing but they folded to the 3-bet.

Anyway, if you think it will tilt them a little, a little jab here and there can not hurt... but remember, if they tilt you chatting, you're getting the worst of it.

I love to say stuff like 'great hand' when they shove over with air or crap... especially if they luck out and hit a pair on the river... things like the other night I am in with QQ pre-flop, I raise to 6xBB, button re-raises to 3xmy raise, I call, flop is nothing spectacular, no overcards... I bet pot size, he calls... so I'm a little worried about a bigger pocket pair but not really... I check the turn which is a 4, he shoves his stack, which is pot sized... i call and he is sitting with 3-4 suited, total of 3 suited cards (so no flush possible)... and he hits a 3 on the river... so I immediately say "great hand" and he thinks it is a compliment. Sometimes it tilts them, sometimes they get the smart-assed comment, sometimes they don't...

But a minor tilt prompted by a comment to another player... as long as they don't re-tilt you... I love it.

Let me clarify a little... sometime chat can tilt me... so I leave it off most of the time.

Also... one thing that helps... send them a smartassed comment and then put them on mute... will tilt them even more. And they can't re-tilt you.

Gambling is a sin and immoral, this can't be much worse.

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

I realize this is a small brag... but I can't help but feel like taunting was a mistake, or may come back to bite me.

Good? Bad? Indifferent? I lifted 5 buy ins off this guy.

I feel this is similar to arguing whether a PSB or 3/4's is the right bet on the flop. If he'll fold to the PSB, he'll almost always fold to the 3/4's, too. It's not a huge difference.

If he'll tilt because of chat, he'll almost always tilt without it. Remember, they don't pay attention down here unless they're in the hand, and sometimes not even then. The difference is, when you chat-to-tilt, you're alerting the whole table to how severe the tilt is, a fact that otherwise half or more of them may not have picked up on until the 3rd or 4th rebuy.

By the way, there is nothing WRONG about chat-to-tilt. But you might ask yourself if there's another way to accomplish the same result.

I thought tilt was purely measured by the cards you play. If you're talking shit, but still always getting your money in good, are you really on tilt?

That would mean that Hellmuth, and Matasow are always tilting.

Originally Posted by jyms

If you have time to type and argue in chat, OPEN MORE FUCKEN TABLES.

this

Originally Posted by bigred

Gambling is a sin and immoral, this can't be much worse.

and this.

I don't see why this thread was even made.

The few times I've ever slipped and made a comment the bad player has left the table and I'm left there feeling like I just chased away the golden goose. Maybe I'm not taunting well enough to get them enraged enough to stay.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I don't see why this thread was even made.

Because we are all bored at work and need something to waste time messaging about.

And we're trying to avoid the tables you are on so we don't lose a bunch of money.

Originally Posted by bigred

Gambling is a sin and immoral, this can't be much worse.

please Never leave FTR.

LMAO

just get your chat banned

Originally Posted by Triptanes

just get your chat banned

-EV
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to davenigma [Ac Ad]
whaleny has returned
MONEYMAGNET420 folds
kourva85 has 15 seconds left to act
kourva85 raises to $10
TNN4731 has 15 seconds left to act
davenigma: qq good?
TNN4731 folds
bernie82 folds
giimoney folds
davenigma has 15 seconds left to act
davenigma: that's a crazy bet
davenigma raises to $165.75, and is all in
GT-R 2010 folds
jimyoh folds
kourva85 calls $115.10, and is all in
davenigma shows [Ac Ad]
kourva85 shows [Ks Kd]



Cash_Money_Dan has 15 seconds left to act
Cash_Money_Dan has requested TIME
davenigma: zzzzzzzzzzz
Cash_Money_Dan: u really got AKh?
davenigma: i got you owned
Cash_Money_Dan calls $117.25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
davenigma shows [Ah Kh] a flush, Ace high
Cash_Money_Dan mucks [4h 5h]
davenigma wins the pot ($273.50) with a flush, Ace high

If tilting people is wrong I don't want to be right.

daven,

Do you really think your clever chat helped you win those two pots?

Originally Posted by Triptanes

daven,

Do you really think your clever chat helped you win those two pots?

the AA vs KK - no
the flush over flush - yes

I haven't used chat for that sort of stuff for almost a year - those were both in the last couple of days and now I'll probably stop doing it for another year

this is POKER

WHAT THE FAWK IS THIS THREAD!!!!


I definitely use chat to my advantage, all the time

you sound cut out for cricket gambling. lots of gentleman and tea!

Originally Posted by kingnat

shh... i'm trying to count your chips.

lol

I'll steal this one if you don't mind.
Live I don't do it because I play it for fun. Online I think it's hilarious. I put the needle on every time I suck out big. I know how much money I made from people I sucked out on who then reloaded and went after me. Plus I push with straight/flush flush/overcard draws all day long, so it does happen quite a lot.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Triptanes

daven,

Do you really think your clever chat helped you win those two pots?

the AA vs KK - no
the flush over flush - yes

I haven't used chat for that sort of stuff for almost a year - those were both in the last couple of days and now I'll probably stop doing it for another year

I don't know.
I don't think I ever saw someone do that who didn't have a really strong hand. Players usually are more talkative if they have a big hand than if they have nothing. Many people are so tensed when pulling off a bluff, especially live that they don't dare to say anything.

use chat to build your image, not to attempt to tilt others.

Didn't read thread cuz I don't gotta.

I don't show chat 'cause I have ADD...

but I still talk sh!t in the chat box...

don't know if anybody can see it because I don't show chat

Originally Posted by oskar

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Triptanes

daven,

Do you really think your clever chat helped you win those two pots?

the AA vs KK - no
the flush over flush - yes

I haven't used chat for that sort of stuff for almost a year - those were both in the last couple of days and now I'll probably stop doing it for another year

I don't know.
I don't think I ever saw someone do that who didn't have a really strong hand. Players usually are more talkative if they have a big hand than if they have nothing. Many people are so tensed when pulling off a bluff, especially live that they don't dare to say anything.

There was a recent article in Card Player magazine about this. The author called it an infallible tell when someone started throwing out "educated guesses" as to what strong hand his opponent might have. It means the talker has the nuts and wants a call.

Bottom line, don't do that.

ChezJ

Here it is
http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/17590

It's not something that comes up too often, but it's quite reliable. If your opponent is waiting on you to react to a large bet, and starts mentioning hands that you could have, he likely can beat every hand he mentions. Obviously, there may be exceptions, but I've found this tell to be one of the more reliable ones that I use.

Ok he said "quite reliable" not "infallible" but you get the point.

ChezJ

use whatever means necessary. Beat them, if chat will help you make them tilt, then good.

I play 10NL and have found chatting to tilt to be just plain detrimental to my game. I'll poke at someone with insults, then use their 'tilt' as a read and be blown away when they show me the nuts. Or, I'll fake my own tilt, expecting calls when I have a hand, and the timing (or something) just ain't right; in this case, I have lost quality chances at slowplaying or otherwise utilizing better strategy.

So, I don't believe that tilting a player in chat "will come back to get me", but I have also stopped putting faith in the chatbox.

Maybe it is different at higher stakes. Or, maybe that is just my style...

I'm at $10NL these days, have played higher, and I still have the chat on "dealer summary only".

I just think I need to be a lot better at poker before I start getting into minds games.

As for trying to "psyche-out" someone, then I suppose if he's stupid enough to get into the chat thing with you he only has himself to blame.

Although it's $10NL... so...

it is very simple for me.. If they are talking trash it is obv that they are A) Trying to tilt a player
B) On tilt themselves
C) Rude and Immature
at any rate i find it quite easy to stay out of it, and then capitalize on those who get involved in "chat battles". one of the most common results I see is that the player being talked too or about usually tightens up as a result of the comments (if they get involved in the chat)
and the player doing the trash talking is usually focused on the player they are berrating... and both of them usually are not focused on the table as a whole, which is how i like it, often I end up getting into pots with the arguers, and snapping them BOTH off, becuase they bet at the pot as if i am not even in the hand, and since I am a NIT it suits me just fine, since i usually have a better hand than both of the tools involved in the arguement.
So i have no problem with talking trash at the table , it serves a purpose for me most of the time, and I have been know to needle a player a few times myself.