Poker Systems & Poker Player Qualities/Strengths

Looking for some advice, and sorry about the length to begin with. I've broken this post into three sections: my background, the qualities of a strong player, and my personal development plans.

My Background

I've been playing poker for almost 10 years now. Mostly online though a few times a year live. My level of play is lacking in quite a few areas (namely self control), though my instincts have made some pretty good improvements. It's safe to say I'm addicted.

Over the past 10 years, I haven't played winning poker, and on a personal level exercised extremely poor self & emotional control. I've lost a lot of money. I'm ridiculously competitive, and refuse to give up mastering the game. I've started reading every book under the sun on poker, and have started to recognize some of my glaring mistakes. I believe that winning over the long run is a combination of a multitude of factors, and so I've been working on a system of guidelines and rules to govern my behavior.

I'm 31 years old. My goal isn't money. It is mastering myself and mastering the game. It is becoming self aware of my weaknesses and capitalizing on my strengths. It's becoming a successful poker player. Not necessarily a pro, but a competent, disciplined, knowledgeable player.

What makes up a strong poker player?

I'd like to ask you guys to rank these in terms of their overall importance to becoming a well rounded player. Here's a list of the factors the complete poker player should have ranked in their order of importance:

• #1) Experience
• #2) Self Control
• #3) Emotional Stability
• #4) Good Instincts
• #5) Patience
• #6) Reading Abilities
• #7) Situational Awareness
• #8) Focus
• #9) Mathematical Abilities
• #10) Maturity

My Plans For My System & Personal Development

As I mentioned earlier, I've been doing a lot of reading, and my biggest flaw is money management. I've got my wife to agree to allow me to stake a last ditch effort to beat this game, master myself, and become a winning player.

We've agreed to a bankroll of $5000. There will be certain rules that govern play.

#1) On any given day, the maximum amount that can be risked is 10% of the full bankroll.
#2) If the 10% is lost, no more can be withdrawn on that day.

I need to be schooled on money management, because that's all I've come up with so far? I play NL cash games, so what should be the max big blind I should go for if I sit down with $500?

One of my real weaknesses is tilt. I am a master of killing myself (which plays off my lack of self control). In almost every instance of live play, I'll build a sizeable chip stack. Then one, maybe two, or even 3 bad beats or errors in play on my part come through. I immediately begin playing way more hands than I should, and end up losing my entire stack. What are some strategies you guys use to avoid going on tilt? My worst episode was after the best run of my life. I won over $5k after starting with only $1k. They picked me apart like hyennas picking over a gazelle.

I'm looking at my play through a new prism. I'm looking to master my play and exercise proper self control and restraints as well as emotional control. I think this is my greatest flaw. It's probably the biggest reason I go on tilt so often. I'm in good control for the first 2-3 hours at the table, and then lose it. I think another reason I go on tilt is because of greed. I'll say, "Ok, when I'm up $1000, I'm out", and I'll make it to $850-900, and play stupid cards because I get over anxious in getting to my goal.

As you guys win, do you set chips aside and say, if I lose everything else, I'm walking away, but I'm not touching these chips.

What books would you recommend for mathematical analysis and bankroll management? I've heard the good players just know the odds based on memorization. So I'd like to do that too.

Thanks again for any advice!

If you're thinking about anything other than making +EV plays, and letting those thoughts govern your play, you're tilting. Learn to recognize tilt and find something that works for you to get back in a proper mental space. Take a short break, get some fresh air, crank one out, whatever works for you.

Keep practicing this, and playing A game will come easier.

1) Set clear, obvious, achievable, non-monetary goals. Set out to make more disciplined folds. Set out to play shorter/longer sessions. Set out to be aware of your outs and odds on every street. Set out to fold 66- from EP and MP. Set out to put all Villains on a range, whether or not you're involved in the hand. Set out to exercise table and seat selection when you first sit down to play.
All of these are things you can directly control. The amount you win/lose is NOT something you can directly control, so you should NOT make it a goal. Learn to focus on things that will lead to monies, and not the monies.

2) You should not be risking 10% of your BR at any time. Knock that down to 5% at the most. Maybe even less (like 2%), since you've said that you're not a winning player, yet. Read every article you can find on bankroll management.

3) Play the smallest stakes you can take seriously. If you can not sit down at a $0.05/$0.10 table with $10.00 and feel like you care if you lose, then that's too low. You will make bad plays, because you don't feel "the hurt" if you lose $10. However, the lower you go is better. You will play against less skilled opponents and risk less of your BR. This is perfect until you can show a consistent winrate over ~10k hands at a given stakes. Once you do that, you'll know that even if you lose when you move up the stakes, you can always fall back down and win it back.

Originally Posted by WhatsaDonk

I'd like to ask you guys to rank these in terms of their overall importance to becoming a well rounded player. Here's a list of the factors the complete poker player should have ranked in their order of importance:

• #1) Emotional Stability
• #2) Maturity
• #3) Self Control
• #4) Experience
• #5) Patience
• #6) Situational Awareness
• #7) Reading Abilities
• #8) Focus
• #9) Mathematical Abilities
• #10) Good Instincts

1 - 3) Knowing your frame of mind, being mature enough to admit your own flaws, and having the self-control to be a person of intentional growth come first.
4 - 5) Experience in the game and the patience to see the big picture come next.
6 - 8) Being aware of position and history as well as putting Villains on a range are specific elements of #4. Having the focus to be vigilantly aware of things can make or break you if you aren't sold at #1 - 3.
9) There is no complicated math in poker, just some basic Algebra.
10) Instincts have no place in gambling. Instincts are actions that are based on NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE. It's a cop-out word that scientist-types use when they mean "I don't know."
Intuition is more appropriate, but it's just the sub-conscious culmination of all the above things in this list, so I don't place any importance on it. Intuition leading to a thought process motivated by reason, though... now you're acting like a pro.

If you can't get a hold of #2 and #3, the rest don't mean shit.

A ton of great advice there Mojo. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

If you can't get a hold of #2 and #3, the rest don't mean shit.

thank god i have none of the 2nd and very little of the 3rd

I was referring to these #2 and #3

#2) Self Control
#3) Emotional Stability

I will never have this #2

#2) Maturity

Are you in the U.S.? What site do you plan on playing at? You need to start at the lowest limit available. Get holdem manager or poker tracker, and post tons of hands here. You need to learn to multi-table to some degree. Sorry if you've already done these things, but it sounded like you were trying to approach online the same way that you approach live.

Losing over 10% of your bankroll in a day is completely standard. It will happen if you put in enough volume and don't have ridiculously nitty bankroll management.
Just make sure that you take a break as soon as you stop playing your A game, and move down if your bankroll management requires you to do so.

I don't really understand the rankings because it seems like many of them are related. If you aren't emotionally stable, you won't have as much self control. if you aren't focused, you won't have as much situational awareness

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

Losing over 10% of your bankroll in a day is completely standard. It will happen if you put in enough volume and don't have ridiculously nitty bankroll management.

This is, of course, completely true. What I meant was that you should never have 10% of your bankroll at risk on a single bet... In this case, a single table.
E.g. I've recently gotten my BR up over $200 and I am taking an extended shot at 10NL this week (not moving back down unless my end-of-day total BR is below $150). I'm playing 4 tables @ $10 each. That's 20% of my BR in play, but not in one place. I can't lose more than 5% on any single bet.

You're a consistant losing player over a 10 year sample, and it looks like your plan is to play 100nl'ish while you learn.

Thats retarded.

Having a $5k roll is nice, but play something like 25nl until you can beat it over a good sized sample and then move up to 50nl and do the same. If you don't have the self-control to do that, you probably don't have it for everything else required and you should just withdraw the $5k and spend it.

i swear to god you guys are single handedly ruining the poker economy with each new poster that comes here

Originally Posted by WhatsaDonk

I've got my wife to agree to allow me to stake a last ditch effort to beat this game, master myself, and become a winning player.

We've agreed to a bankroll of $5000. There will be certain rules that govern play.

#1) On

start with $50 and play 2nl
if you're any good then you'll be playing 50nl with $2500 pretty quickly, and you'll be playing using nothing that has cost you more than that original $50. Use the $4950 you didn't deposit to go on a nice holiday with your wife.

you asked for opinions on the keys to being a strong player. Discipline is near the top of the list. If you aren't disciplined enough or mentally strong enough to work your way up through the stakes by beating the games then you are screwed.

required reading:
The Newbie Circle of Death
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ls-153390.html

Originally Posted by bikes

i swear to god you guys are single handedly ruining the poker economy with each new poster that comes here

coaching players to convert them from losing players to winning players isn't great for the poker economy either
forums such as this, coaching sites, coaching vids, etc are all ruining the poker economy = we aren't doing it single handedly

@ op, if you decide to just dive in and play 100nl + then please at least be so kind to tell us your sn so we can sit at your tables

Get a better wife.

If emotion enters your game at any point you're not doing well. There is only rational thought that can help you win at this game, and I think it's a reasonable goal to aim to not really feel any emotions at all regardless of whether you're up or down - you should have no time to really be happy or sad when your brain is busy analyzing your play, from your line to your bet sizing or whatever.

Also I think the idea that you should play the smallest stakes that you can take "seriously" to be flawed - if you have the right mindset I think you should be able to play good poker at any level. Just because a multi billionaire donk is wanting to get a bit better at the game doesn't mean he should train at high stakes games just because losing $1000 buyins is too insignificant for him. If you have the right mindset, the buyins and the chips have no more bearing to the real world - do you think about how many cheeseburgers you can buy if you win this pot you're in right now? If you do, you simply need adjustment in mentality imo.

Originally Posted by daven

start with $50 and play 2nl
if you're any good then you'll be playing 50nl with $2500 pretty quickly, and you'll be playing using nothing that has cost you more than that original $50. Use the $4950 you didn't deposit to go on a nice holiday with your wife.

you asked for opinions on the keys to being a strong player. Discipline is near the top of the list.

This a thousand times and what everybody else said too. I'd also recommend reading Jared Tendler's book on the mental game if that's your main problem.

Leave the tables after 2 hours if that's when you start to play badly. Set an alarm clock and look to incrementally add 5 minutes here and there in due course but be aware when it's that 5 minutes and do something different - sit up, talk through your thought process out loud or whatever.

And thank your wife for being supportive.

I don't play online for money...just for fun, and to work on skills like calculating pot odds and # of outs etc. Based on my BR calc's...I would sit down with $500 at a table...which is the max I would lose for that day. I've heard that you need 100x the big blind for NL tables...so I'm assuming the biggest table I should play at would be a 2/5NL game. Does that sound about right?

You're not really listening - rather you came here with a fixed idea in your head, and are just looking for somebody to nod in agreement to make you feel more secure.

Here's the news for you: the biggest table most of us will recommend you to sit at is the smallest stakes available at the site of your choice - often 0.01/0.02 blinds, $2 buy-in. If you can't do that well please go ahead and try to beat 2/5 games. We won't be there to help you though, so you might as well find another forum to post your stories in.

Originally Posted by eugmac

We won't be there to help you though, so you might as well find another forum to post your stories in.

and people accuse me of being an asshole

Read BC digest several times
Deposit $1k
Buy HEM or PT
Play 10NL- When BR is at $1100 post overall stats and move up to 25NL
If BR drops to $750, post stats and drop back down to 10NL.

Post hands often

That should keep you busy for the next several months.

Originally Posted by bikes

and people accuse me of being an asshole

hey it's just tough love. will anybody be taking this guy seriously if he comes in posting 500nl hands?

Originally Posted by WhatsaDonk

I'm assuming the biggest table I should play at would be a 2/5NL game. Does that sound about right?

No, this would be insane and your final shot will go the same way as your $5k - down the toilet in no more than one month. The multiple sharks at 500nl would eat you alive, you'll learn nothing and some sessions could be over in one hand.

Come on dude, you're a long-term losing player: be realistic and take account of the advice above. If you're really playing for fun and personal challenge, you should start at the micros and beat every level on the way up whilst greatly improving your ability. Stepping into a game with some of the world's best professionals is asking to get hammered and you'll ask yourself why there's a queue of 25 people waiting to get on your table as you donate your final $5k to the poker economy.

If he only plays smaller stakes he's never gonna learn to beat the higher games though.

OP, I think there's a lot of jealousy about your bankroll because you've posted in a beginners' forum where most people are playing for pennies. You don't learn to be pirate captain by rowing around in a canoe.

But his pirate ship is full of leaks (har har har har har).

Blew threw my $500 in about 3 hours on my first day.
















That was for the haters....the truth is played 40NL, and moved to 200NL, and turned the $500 into $1550 over 3 days (or about 14 hours of play). I give myself a "B" overall. Was consistently profitable all three days bringing in $300+ day 1, $600+ day 2, and close to $200 on day 3. I still made a lot of very glaring mistakes, but was able to make a lot of great reads and manage my stack fairly well - catching a hand or two didn't hurt either. If I had been at the top of my game, I'm guessing at I could have AT LEAST another $750-$1k that I gave away due to a few moments of weakness and lack of focus.

keep it up donker! to 1knl or busto!

Personally, I think this guy is a high stakes shark trying to encourage microdonks to blow their bankroll in a crazy stab at stakes they're not rolled for.

Either that or he's that slevin guy. Or dwarfman.

My bet on the river has been called.

haters itt. good job op. keep it up

Hey, sorry about berating you above - I didn't realise you were playing live, where the ability of at least 6 players at a FR table seems to border on retarded. Just remember that 10BI downswings aren't uncommon, even for good players. Good luck!