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NLHE Foundations Course #04: Pre-Flop Ranges (Part 1)

1. NLHE Foundations Course #04: Pre-Flop Ranges (Part 1)

This is the thread for part 4 of the NLHE Foundations Course.

In this lesson, we start to get into what everyone has been asking about: Putting opponents on ranges.

I've given you some homework that requires you to have a database/HUD program, and I've given you links to free 30-day trials for the two most popular database/HUD programs out there. Let's see your answers to my question here, and we can get some discussion going that will provide the foundation for your hand-reading skills.
Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-08-2015 at 08:03 AM.
2.  07-08-2015 01:18 PM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Here's some bonus content that I didn't include in the main article because it goes off on a little bit of a tangent, but I thought you guys would find it interesting. Bonus Content When people do statistical analysis on player stats while trying to find bot-controlled accounts, they rarely look at individual stats. It's really hard to just look for everyone who played something like 15/13 in full-ring games or 21/17 in six-max or whatever. Instead, they compare sets of stats (like the comparisons I showed between VPIP/PFR, PFR/ATS, etc.) They're able to find a tremendous amount of information from comparing sets of stats compared to looking at individual numbers. To give a cliff notes version of what's been done to find a lot of major NLHE botting rings, hundreds of accounts with thousands of hands each were analyzed based on certain ratios of specific stats. One particular ratio was always in the range of (for example) 5 to 30 for human players. However, four or five accounts stood out as having ratios in the range of 90 to 95. A closer look at these four or five accounts showed that all of their stats were otherwise virtually identical, and they all were found to be using the same computer program to play poker. This shows that the pairing of certain stats and their respective ratios can be used as very effective indicators when analyzing data to find bot-like behavior.
3.  07-08-2015 03:22 PM MadMojoMonkey AINT SHOVELING SHIT Join Date Apr 2012 Posts 9,147 Location St Louis, MO Originally Posted by spoonitnow You cannot and should not expect to be able to put people on super-specific, detailed ranges while you’re in the middle of playing. Instead, you should put people on super-detailed ranges during your study so that you build up a feel for what these ranges are like, and that feel will guide you during your play. This is one of the most important things to understand when you're learning about ranges. It's far too easy to set the bar too high for yourself when you're getting started. *** When you're done with your poker study, come over to the FTR commune and post your curiosities about nature and the world around you in my physics monkey thread.
4.  07-12-2015 02:15 PM bhaley66 Join Date Sep 2009 Posts 179 Location CA Opponent 1 VPIP: 18.2PFR: 13.0ATS: 36.3Fold Blind to Steal: 903-Bet Pre-flop: 3.91ATS Range: 22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,A 5o+,K8o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o Opponent 2 VPIP: 18.9PFR: 8.45ATS: 16.7Fold Blind to Steal: 1003-Bet Pre-flop: 3.7ATS Range: 22+,A6s+,KTs+,QJs,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo I didn't have a great sample size for opponent 2. I will take another stab at it after a while. Originally Posted by spoonitnow You cannot and should not expect to be able to put people on super-specific, detailed ranges while you’re in the middle of playing. Instead, you should put people on super-detailed ranges during your study so that you build up a feel for what these ranges are like, and that feel will guide you during your play. Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey This is one of the most important things to understand when you're learning about ranges. It's far too easy to set the bar too high for yourself when you're getting started. Great bit! I totally agree! When I first joined FTR, and started studying poker 5-6 years ago, I got sucked into this, and seriously struggled with ranges, lost ambition, and never went anywhere. Thank you for all the work/instruction spoon! It's really appreciated!
5.  07-13-2015 11:15 AM MarinaD Join Date Jun 2015 Posts 35 Villain 1 (10k hands) Vpip: 10 Pfr: 6 ATS: 13 Fold to steal: 87 3bet: 3.1 I think is steal range looks something like this: http://i.gyazo.com/cc739acbfc263f21d2f157add7ef148b.png When i ran the steal filter, i saw 98s, so that's why i ended up putting some SCs intead of some broadways or AXs type of hands. Villain 2 (9.1k hands) Vpip: 15 PFR: 12 ATS: 32 Fold to Steal: 75 3bet: 6 He is stealing most of the time with this range: http://i.gyazo.com/d1ebe6ca1a7562926e097e885170711b.png I don't use the ATS stat because positional aware players tend to steal a lot more from SB than to CO for example. So i use individual CO BU and SB stealing stats. At least when i have lots of hands. Edit: Very interesting Bonus content!!!!!
6.  07-13-2015 11:53 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by MarinaD I don't use the ATS stat because positional aware players tend to steal a lot more from SB than to CO for example. So i use individual CO BU and SB stealing stats. At least when i have lots of hands. Yeah this is something we might get around to later on either in this series or in a new series after this.
7.  07-16-2015 09:08 PM matiusaa Join Date Dec 2013 Posts 113 I just downloaded the free version of holdem manager. I need to collect a good amount of hands before I make the excersice
8.  07-17-2015 08:46 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by matiusaa I just downloaded the free version of holdem manager. I need to collect a good amount of hands before I make the excersice You can import hands that you've already played btw.
9.  07-17-2015 11:20 AM matiusaa Join Date Dec 2013 Posts 113 Originally Posted by spoonitnow You can import hands that you've already played btw. Thanks for info, how can I look for the hands in the hud?
10.  07-17-2015 05:57 PM matiusaa Join Date Dec 2013 Posts 113 I don't use ATS, I rather use it by postion: sb, btn and CO, so I will make the excersice for each position. And also, I didn't find villians with lots of hands, so I chose this one, I know there's lots of variance and even if you compare some stats they don't make too much sense with each other, for the purpose of the excersice I will take them as reliable. opponent 1: hands: 230 vpip: 6 pfr: 6 SBSteal: 25 BTNSteal: 33 COSteal: 5 3Bet: 3,5 BBfts: 92 SBfts: 89 His value range comes from the 6% vpip and pfr which looks something like this: 88+ KQs AQo+ AJs+ Stealing range from CO: 5%, so I assume the villian isn't stealing from the CO, but only plays his value hands. Stealing range from BTN: 33% which looks like this: 22+,A2o+,A2s+,K9o+,K8s+,QTo+,Q9s+,JTo,J9s+,T8s+,45 s-89s. So his real stealing range would be the stealing range substracting his value range, So I expect his real stealing range from the button to be the following: 22-77,A2o-AJo,A2s-ATs,K9o+,K8s-KJs, QTo+,Q9s+,JTo,J9s+,T8s+,45s-89s Stealing range from SB: 25% which looks like this: 22+, A6o+, A2s+, K9o+,K8s+, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+, 56s-9Ts So again, I substract the range he plays for value and I get: 22-77, A6o-AJo, A2s-ATs, K9o+, K8s-KJs, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+, 56s-9Ts. Last edited by matiusaa; 07-17-2015 at 06:00 PM.
11.  07-18-2015 10:18 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina I'm not really sure about the specifics of how to import hands, etc., in today's generation of database programs, but there are a ton of tutorials online.
12.  07-19-2015 09:15 PM Kashkar Join Date Jun 2015 Posts 9 For some reason Poker Tracker 4 isn't recognizing Pokerstars or Fulltilt. Anyone else having this issue?
13.  07-20-2015 10:37 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by Kashkar For some reason Poker Tracker 4 isn't recognizing Pokerstars or Fulltilt. Anyone else having this issue? What version do you have? There might be an update available. The latest is apparently 4.13.5.
14.  07-21-2015 01:15 AM Kashkar Join Date Jun 2015 Posts 9 Originally Posted by spoonitnow What version do you have? There might be an update available. The latest is apparently 4.13.5. I got the issue resolved, others were having the same issue and posted on the PokerTracker forum. I had to change the directory. Thanks!
15.  07-27-2015 09:13 AM Pursu7it Join Date Jul 2015 Posts 23 Opponent 1 (281 Hands): VPIP: 8 PFR: 7 3BET: 5 ATS: 12 So this opponent isn't stealing often and if then only from the sb (25) or BTN (18). I don't have a single hand in which he stole and it went to showdown. (55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T9s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo) Opponent 2 (599 Hands): VPIP: 12 PFR: 10 3BET: 4 ATS: 31 This opponent is stealing alot, especially from the sb (50) and BTN (32). With every Ace, nearly ever King, some queens, many suit connectors, one/two gap connectors and of course every pocketpair. (22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+)
16.  07-28-2015 04:19 PM MarinaD Join Date Jun 2015 Posts 35 Originally Posted by Pursu7it Opponent 1 (281 Hands): VPIP: 8 PFR: 7 3BET: 5 ATS: 12 So this opponent isn't stealing often and if then only from the sb (25) or BTN (18). I don't have a single hand in which he stole and it went to showdown. (55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T9s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo) Opponent 2 (599 Hands): VPIP: 12 PFR: 10 3BET: 4 ATS: 31 This opponent is stealing alot, especially from the sb (50) and BTN (32). With every Ace, nearly ever King, some queens, many suit connectors, one/two gap connectors and of course every pocketpair. (22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+) With opponent 1 i would re shape that 25%. I'm pretty sure that someone who is stealing 25% is opening all pocket pairs instead of only 55+ for example. I think that you put 25 in pokerstove or equilab and came up with that results. I would suggest something like this: http://i.gyazo.com/970579804bc9e2d1653fe4d417e47918.png
17.  07-28-2015 05:30 PM Pursu7it Join Date Jul 2015 Posts 23 Yes I took the standard 25% because I didn't see a hand from any steal attempt. But I think he is more likely to steal with A8o than like T8s oder 97s. So with the pocket pairs I agree, with the two gap connectors I disagree.
18.  08-11-2015 03:36 PM Cobra_1878 Join Date Jul 2012 Posts 1,384 Location Liverpool Villain #1 VPIP: 30% PFR: 26% ATS: 39% Fold blind to steal: 66% 3BPF: 16% Villain is stealing super wide here. I think his range looks something like; 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,A2o+ ,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o. Villain #2 VPIP: 17% PFR: 13% ATS: 24% Fold blind to steal: 85% 3BPF: 5% Second villain is much tighter. Range might look something like; 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo. Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
19.  08-11-2015 03:49 PM MarinaD Join Date Jun 2015 Posts 35 Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 Villain #1 VPIP: 30% PFR: 26% ATS: 39% Fold blind to steal: 66% 3BPF: 16% Villain is stealing super wide here. I think his range looks something like; 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,A2o+ ,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o. Villain #2 VPIP: 17% PFR: 13% ATS: 24% Fold blind to steal: 85% 3BPF: 5% Second villain is much tighter. Range might look something like; 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo. I like the range you gave villain #1. With villain #2 i would include some suited connectors instead of so many Ax offsuit.
20.  08-11-2015 05:00 PM Cobra_1878 Join Date Jul 2012 Posts 1,384 Location Liverpool Originally Posted by MarinaD I like the range you gave villain #1. With villain #2 i would include some suited connectors instead of so many Ax offsuit. Thanks, I find it much more difficult to put loose villains on ranges. I agree about SCs. Usually, most villains will raise with any Ax on BU but I think you're right in that he raises hands like T9s and 98s as well. Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
21.  08-13-2015 01:29 PM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 Thanks, I find it much more difficult to put loose villains on ranges. I agree about SCs. Usually, most villains will raise with any Ax on BU but I think you're right in that he raises hands like T9s and 98s as well. Putting loose Villains on ranges is more difficult because of the size of the ranges and the flexibility of what could be in those ranges. However, the larger the range, the more of a reasonable margin of error you can have as well since every individual hand you miss (or put in his range when it's not really there) is a smaller percentage of the whole range.
22.  09-02-2015 04:08 AM Cobra_1878 Join Date Jul 2012 Posts 1,384 Location Liverpool Villain 26/22, ATS 60%. FT3B after stealing - 42%. 60% Range: 22+(78), A2s+(48), K2s+(44), Q2s+(40), J2s+(36), T7s+(12), 97s+(8), 86s+(8), 75s+(8), 64s+(8), 53s+(8), 43s(4), A2o+(192), K3o+(160), Q3o+(144), J7o+(64), T7o+(48), 97o+(32), 87o(16). Combos = 958 FT3B% 42% - J2-J7s(24), Q2s-Q7s(24), K2s-K7s(24), T7s(4), 86s(4), 75s(4), 64s(4), 53s+(8), 43s(4), K3o-K9o(112), Q3o-Q8o(96), J7o-J8o(32), T7o-T8o(32) 97o(16), 87o(16). 404/958 = 42%. Continuing with; 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o. What sort of range do we think we should be a) calling with, b) 3betting for value and c) 3betting as a bluff? Actually, is *c* even an option? I mean, we probably just want to 3bet for value against this guy, right? Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
23.  09-02-2015 07:50 AM othd13 Join Date Aug 2015 Posts 11 Opponent 1: VIPIP/PFR: 25/21 ATS: 37, Fold to Steal :81 3bet : 7,9%( 1k8 hand) I think he is steal most of the time on BU and Sb around 40% (he steal on Co 28%)and his range steal like this: 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o Opponent 2:26/12 ATS:22 (CO: 16. BTN:33 SB:16 3bet:6,7%) over 2k7 hand seem he steal tight range CO like SB with range like this:22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,ATo+,KQo his range steal on BU like this :22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o Last edited by othd13; 09-02-2015 at 07:52 AM. Reason: miss
24.  09-02-2015 11:55 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 Villain 26/22, ATS 60%. FT3B after stealing - 42%. 60% Range: 22+(78), A2s+(48), K2s+(44), Q2s+(40), J2s+(36), T7s+(12), 97s+(8), 86s+(8), 75s+(8), 64s+(8), 53s+(8), 43s(4), A2o+(192), K3o+(160), Q3o+(144), J7o+(64), T7o+(48), 97o+(32), 87o(16). Combos = 958 FT3B% 42% - J2-J7s(24), Q2s-Q7s(24), K2s-K7s(24), T7s(4), 86s(4), 75s(4), 64s(4), 53s+(8), 43s(4), K3o-K9o(112), Q3o-Q8o(96), J7o-J8o(32), T7o-T8o(32) 97o(16), 87o(16). 404/958 = 42%. Continuing with; 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o. What sort of range do we think we should be a) calling with, b) 3betting for value and c) 3betting as a bluff? Actually, is *c* even an option? I mean, we probably just want to 3bet for value against this guy, right? With him folding to 3-bets such a small portion of the time, you need to figure out what he's 4-betting and calling with as well.
25.  09-02-2015 11:56 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by othd13 Opponent 1: VIPIP/PFR: 25/21 ATS: 37, Fold to Steal :81 3bet : 7,9%( 1k8 hand) I think he is steal most of the time on BU and Sb around 40% (he steal on Co 28%)and his range steal like this: 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o Opponent 2:26/12 ATS:22 (CO: 16. BTN:33 SB:16 3bet:6,7%) over 2k7 hand seem he steal tight range CO like SB with range like this:22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,ATo+,KQo his range steal on BU like this :22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A5o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o Not necessarily related to this lesson, but notice that the first player here is much more aggressive while the second player is more passive based just on the stats that you've told me.
26.  09-02-2015 12:08 PM Cobra_1878 Join Date Jul 2012 Posts 1,384 Location Liverpool Originally Posted by spoonitnow With him folding to 3-bets such a small portion of the time, you need to figure out what he's 4-betting and calling with as well. Hmm, OK. I don't think I have enough hands to estimate those ranges so what would you do from here? Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
27.  09-02-2015 12:39 PM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 Hmm, OK. I don't think I have enough hands to estimate those ranges so what would you do from here? Do the best you can between the hands you do have and the guy's stats.
28.  09-06-2015 01:39 AM siriusisness Join Date Nov 2014 Posts 13 so my first villian i perceive to be very tight VPIP: 17 PFR: 11 3-bet: 3.7 ATS: 28 Fold to Steal: 96 equilab tells me they are raising with 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, ATo+, KQo and stealing with 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ my second villain is loose passive VPIP: 38 PFR: 2 3-bet: 0.7 ATS: 4 Fold to Steal: 64 they are raising with TT+! stealing with 99+AQs+ AKo so hes not actually stealing at all, ever 3rd guy i perceive to be just a regular TAG kinda guy i guess VPIP: 25 PFR: 23 3-bet: 7.6 ATS: 42 Fold to Steal: 80 so hes raising 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo ans stealing with 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ cant find anybody who i would consider a LAG in my database - can someone help me out? also for my first villain (28% steal) equilab says they're stealing with more suited aces, presumably because of blockers. is it more likely though that a tight player would have more pairs than aces?
29.  09-06-2015 06:59 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina When you're looking at how much you think they're raising with, you need to realize that they are not raising with the same hands from all positions (which is part of the point of this exercise). This means you can't put them on a "raising range" based on how often they raise pre-flop. The stealing range estimate is a little different because it's talking about open raises from specific positions.
30.  09-07-2015 10:51 AM siriusisness Join Date Nov 2014 Posts 13 fair enough. so for the numbers that i was using as a "raising range" - this should be used as basically the widest they go? like assume its their button range and then shorten it by position?
31.  09-08-2015 08:34 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by siriusisness fair enough. so for the numbers that i was using as a "raising range" - this should be used as basically the widest they go? like assume its their button range and then shorten it by position? Okay let me break this down for you real quick in a way that will hopefully make sense. Your attempt to steal stat (ATS) is the percentage of the time a player will open raise from the cutoff, button and small blind combined. Your pre-flop raise stat (PFR) is the percentage of the time a player will raise when given the opportunity to pre-flop regardless of position, previous action, etc. This includes open-raising, raising after limpers, 3-betting, 4-betting, 5-betting, etc. What you'll normally see is a player who has an ATS that's a bit higher than their PFR. For example, in a six-max game you might see a player who has a VPIP of 22, a PFR of 18 and an ATS of 35. The reason for this is that they are raising before the flop more often when there are fewer players left in the hand.
32.  09-18-2015 10:36 AM Rambam77 Join Date Mar 2010 Posts 8 Location Pataskala, Ohio Hey Spoon, I play on a site not compatible with either hud. So I am not able to data mine for this exercise. What options might I have until I build a decent amount of hands on another site?
33.  09-19-2015 10:15 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by Rambam77 Hey Spoon, I play on a site not compatible with either hud. So I am not able to data mine for this exercise. What options might I have until I build a decent amount of hands on another site? My suggestion is to start with the raw data (hands and stats) that someone else posted on this thread and do your own analysis. I hope that helps!
34.  09-24-2015 08:08 PM Robb Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 3,275 Villain is 19/14 over 1915 hands with ATS = 27%. We've seen him steal with A8s, A6, 66, AK, JTo and T9o. I find this range problematic. He seems to open any two 9+. If that's the case (and only steals with 66+, he can't be stealing with any Ace. A range that is approximately 27% would be: A2s+, A6+, 66+ and any two 9+. He apparently thinks that high card power is important (it is), but then why not steal with all his Aces? Also, he doesn't seem to be stealing with low pp's. Assuming he steals with all of his Aces, we could tweak the above range: Any Ace, any two suited 9+, KT+, and T9+. He folds steal attempts to 3bets 56%. So his continuing range after a 3bet (given his preference for high cards over suited-ness) might be: 99+, A8s+, AT+, T9s+, KJ+, KTs. Last edited by Robb; 09-24-2015 at 08:10 PM.
35.  09-25-2015 12:32 PM doddly10 Join Date Aug 2015 Posts 17 one thing that came to me while doing this is the word "stealing", if he has AA on the button and raises unopened is that still termed stealing the blinds or a value raise and for this exercise does that even matter. Villain 1 VPIP 19 PFR 13 ATS 27 FTS 75 3BET 2.5 Having played with this player alot he is generally tight but can mix it up with loose hands at times, raising from the button from known hands as wide as J4s Range from known hands at showdown: 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, J4s, T8s+, T4s, 97s+ 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A5o+, KTo+, QJo, T8o, Seems to like suited hands with one high card and cards with some connectivity suited connectors and gaped connectors. Villain 2 VPIP 15 PFR 11 ATS 40 FST 79 3BET 4.2 Villain from known hands at showdown showed a lot of Ax hands, one high card suited hands and hands with connectivity suited connectors and suited gaped conectors. Range of : 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J8s+, J3s, T9s, 98s, A2o+, KTo+, QJo, with a high ATS of 40 i feel i have left out alot of this players range here but i struggled to think as there was not more known hands at showdown,
36.  09-26-2015 07:40 AM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina Originally Posted by doddly10 one thing that came to me while doing this is the word "stealing", if he has AA on the button and raises unopened is that still termed stealing the blinds or a value raise and for this exercise does that even matter. I understand what you're getting at, but for our purposes, stealing just means that someone has open raised from the cutoff, button or small blind. This means that everyone folded to them in one of these three positions, and they decided to open raise. That's where you'll get the steal percentage in stats for database programs like PokerTracker and Hold'em Manager.
37.  09-26-2015 09:51 AM doddly10 Join Date Aug 2015 Posts 17 cool thanks
38.  09-27-2015 10:08 AM BorisTheSpider Join Date Mar 2012 Posts 861 Location UK I play only 6max cash, so all stats are for 6max players. First villain I have about 2800 hands on. His basic stats are 17/14/7 with a 24% BTN steal. The relatively low btn steal suggests a somewhat nitty player who is not particularly positionally aware, and looking at his stats by position backs that up (he's opening about 15% from all positions with little variation). I've seen him take 85 hands to showdown, of which he W\$SD 57% of the time. Immediately obvious tendencies seen in hands I've seen him showdown are that he plays big hands fast. When I've seen him show down after opening the BTN, it's been with TT, J9o, T7s and AQo. J9o is somewhat out of place with only a 25% BTN steal, but the rest of those hands seem to fit - He's likely to be opening the button with premiums, suited aces, medium to small pairs and suited broadways plus some stronger SCs. Overall he seems to play tight and straightforward. Second villain I have around 1300 hands on. His basic stats are 20/16/7. He has attempted to steal 49% from the BTN. I've seen him show down 37 times, with a W\$SD of 59%. Notable hands I've seen a showdown from him are one where he flatted IP with KJs, stabbed at T77r when it was checked to him, then bet around 2/3 pot on a K turn and called a big overbet jam. I also saw him get all-in over 3 streets when opening AJs in the HJ, on an ace high board, suggesting he might overplay TPGK. I've seen him call a 3bet OOP after opening 33 in the CO, then C/R a flopped set. I've seen him call a 3bet OOP with QJs also. I've seen him C/R a paired two-tone flop with bare overcards no draw. I've seen him play two flushdraws passively and seen a river stab when one bricked. I've only seen one hand shown down after he opened the BTN (A7o). His BTN stealing range is probably something around any ace, any pair, any suited K/Q, the better suited Jacks, most suited connectors and one gappers plus unsuited broadways and some higher unsuited connectors. Overall I'd say he is aggressive but overplays medium value hands and has a tendency to bluff in bad spots. He also seems to call too many 3bets. Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 09-27-2015 at 10:29 AM.
39.  09-28-2015 09:27 AM ErnieohneBert Join Date Sep 2015 Posts 23 Location Munich Player 1 with 21000 Hands VPIP / PFR / ATS / FBtS / 3bet PF 15 / 10 / 18 / 82 / 1,6 Stealing Range: 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,5 4s,43s,ATo+,KJo+,QJo = 22% Fits perfectly to ATS from Button = 22% Player 2 with 20000 Hands 23 / 17 / 26 / 70 / 6,6 Stealing Range: 22+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,54s, A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo = 28% Fits perfectly to ATS from Button = 28 %
40.  09-28-2015 02:00 PM spoonitnow Resident Asshole Join Date Sep 2005 Posts 14,499 Location North Carolina I want to reiterate something I've posted in other threads (and possibly this one) for this series: The point of doing this analysis (which you should do over and over for other opponents in your own time) is to start seeing patterns with how different types of players play. This will put you in a position to understand what some basic stats say about a player's likely tendencies and likely ranges in fairly complicated situations.

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