Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,291,000 Posts!
Poker ForumBeginners Circle

NLHE Foundations Course #03: Finding a Calling Range

Results 1 to 36 of 36
  1. #1
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina

    Video NLHE Foundations Course #03: Finding a Calling Range

    This is the thread for NLHE Foundations #03: Calling to Close the Action in No-Limit Hold’em. There's an exercise at the bottom of that posting, and your answers should be listed in this thread.

    Also feel free to ask any questions and post any comments or feedback here.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 06-26-2015 at 01:06 PM.
  2. #2
    We think our opponent is folding with any ace, any pocket pair and any two cards nine and up.
    Assuming you meant shove.

    For some reason, I am getting slightly different pokerstove results for the first example.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.029% 44.22% 03.81% 1129739964 97283156.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 51.971% 48.16% 03.81% 1230451292 97283156.00 { A8s }

    Getting 52% instead of 52.8%. Not sure if I am missing a hand or something. 2nd hand excercise numbers are exact.

    In hand 1 exercise, we can profitably call with following hands: { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 52.426% 50.22% 02.21% 175972728856 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 47.574% 45.37% 02.21% 158970796248 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }



    In hand 2 exercise, we are supposed to list all hands we can profitably call with. Since the cards have already been dealt, we can list some strange hands that realistically will never be our in range but for the hand exercise would be a hand that you can call with profitably. For example, 94o. I was not sure if you wanted us to list ALL hands that we can call profitably with or list realistic PF to river ranges on this board that we can call profitably with.
  3. #3
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Sup3rM4N View Post
    Assuming you meant shove.
    Sorry about that. I wrote this lesson in a hurry. I've fixed the typo.

    For some reason, I am getting slightly different pokerstove results for the first example.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.029% 44.22% 03.81% 1129739964 97283156.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 51.971% 48.16% 03.81% 1230451292 97283156.00 { A8s }

    Getting 52% instead of 52.8%. Not sure if I am missing a hand or something. 2nd hand excercise numbers are exact.

    In hand 1 exercise, we can profitably call with following hands: { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 52.426% 50.22% 02.21% 175972728856 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 47.574% 45.37% 02.21% 158970796248 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
    Looks good. I might have missed a hand when clicking around in PokerStove.

    In hand 2 exercise, we are supposed to list all hands we can profitably call with. Since the cards have already been dealt, we can list some strange hands that realistically will never be our in range but for the hand exercise would be a hand that you can call with profitably. For example, 94o. I was not sure if you wanted us to list ALL hands that we can call profitably with or list realistic PF to river ranges on this board that we can call profitably with.
    Just to clarify, listing all hands you could call with on the river (even if they wouldn't be in your range) is what I was looking for here.
  4. #4
    In the facing a river bet example, i think that the pot will be $28 after our call.
    River pot is $10 + $6 first villain bet + $6 second villain call + $6 of our call = $28

    6/28= 0.2142

    Please let me know if this is right before i make the exercises.
    Last edited by MarinaD; 06-29-2015 at 04:37 PM.
  5. #5
    In the first example we need 47.5% equity to have a profitable call.
    This is a range with +47.5% equity: 33+,A5s+,KTs+,A8o+,KQo

    It looks like this:

    Attachment 840


    In the facing a River bet example, assuming we need 21.42% equity vs both villain ranges combined, this range will make it profitable:

    Attachment 841
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sup3rM4N View Post
    Assuming you meant shove.

    For some reason, I am getting slightly different pokerstove results for the first example.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.029% 44.22% 03.81% 1129739964 97283156.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 51.971% 48.16% 03.81% 1230451292 97283156.00 { A8s }

    Getting 52% instead of 52.8%. Not sure if I am missing a hand or something. 2nd hand excercise numbers are exact.

    In hand 1 exercise, we can profitably call with following hands: { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 52.426% 50.22% 02.21% 175972728856 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
    Hand 1: 47.574% 45.37% 02.21% 158970796248 7729470424.00 { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A2o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }



    In hand 2 exercise, we are supposed to list all hands we can profitably call with. Since the cards have already been dealt, we can list some strange hands that realistically will never be our in range but for the hand exercise would be a hand that you can call with profitably. For example, 94o. I was not sure if you wanted us to list ALL hands that we can call profitably with or list realistic PF to river ranges on this board that we can call profitably with.

    I'm also getting 52% instead of 52.8%.
    This is villain range, right?

    spoonrange.jpg

    If so...i think that are some mistakes in your profitable calling range.
    With hands like 22 or A2s we have less than 47.5% equity.

    Correct me if i'm wrong and sorry for my english.
  7. #7
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    I want to point out that the range you can profitably call with will be all of the hands that are a profitable call, not just a range where the total range is profitable as a whole.
  8. #8
    Yeah, i think i'm doing that. All combos worth calling.
    That's why i think sup3rm4n's calling range has a few mistakes.
  9. #9
    Is there a way to calculate equity without the program?
  10. #10
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Kashkar View Post
    Is there a way to calculate equity without the program?
    There is, and it's not worth the time and effort. You're looking at 45-60 minutes for analyzing two small ranges going all-in on the flop, for example.
  11. #11
    hand 1 calling range: 33+, A5s+,KTs+, A8o+, KQo
    hand 2 calling range: 4x, 88, QQ+, KQ, K8
  12. #12
    Example 1:
    Villains range - 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9 o
    If Hero needs 47.5% equity, he can call with any combination that falls within:
    • 33+
    • A5s+
    • KTs+
    • A8o+
    • KQo


    Example 2:
    Villain one's range - QQ+,44,AKs,KJs+,AKo,KJo+
    Villain two's range - AKs,KJs+,AKo,KJo+
    If Hero needs 27.3% equity, he can call with any combination that falls within:
    • 88
    • QQ+
    • 4x
    • K8
    • KQ



    I also wondered (like MarinaD) about the equity required for example 2... If the pot is $10 at the river before any action, and it's $6 for us to call, with three of us, wouldn't the pot be $28?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    In the facing a river bet example, i think that the pot will be $28 after our call.
    River pot is $10 + $6 first villain bet + $6 second villain call + $6 of our call = $28

    6/28= 0.2142

    Please let me know if this is right before i make the exercises.
    Last edited by bhaley66; 07-05-2015 at 04:02 PM.
  13. #13
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    10,322
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    I think you're both right about the $28 pot and the 21.4%

    Extra Credit:
    What is your calling range against the 21.4%

    Spoiler:
    I got the same range in both cases.
    { QQ+, 88, KQ, K8, 4x }
  14. #14
    It's the same... you would need the requirement to be less than 17.5% to make AK profitable.
  15. #15
    PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

    Button ($3.96)
    SB ($4.51)
    Hero (BB) ($3.22)
    UTG ($6.87)
    UTG+1 ($8.40)
    MP1 ($5.20)
    MP2 ($4.52)
    MP3 ($6.61)
    CO ($5.72)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
    1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, MP1 raises to $0.20, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.15, UTG+1 calls $0.15

    Flop: ($0.62) 7, Q, A (3 players)
    Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold

    Turn: ($1.32) 2 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

    River: ($2.82) 3 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 bets $2.70, Hero calls $1.92 (All-In)

    Total pot: $6.66 | Rake: $0.28

    Given the hand, I'm putting my opponent on AJ, AQ, AK, AA, QQ 77 when I have to close the action on the river. I can not think of any other hand given the action.

    I had to call 1,92$ into a 6,66$ total pot (already substracting rake). This means the equity I should have to be profitbale is 1,92/6,66=28,8%.
    I used the program EV++ Slice to run the equity simlulation and gave me a 40,7% equity, so the call is profitable in the long run. I was actually thinking this same thing while I played the hand, but of course, I didn't knew my exact equity against the range I gave him, but I knew my minimum equity I needed should be at least somewhere between 25-30% while I was thinking to call or not, based on quick calculations I made.

    By the way, is there anything anybody would have done differently? I was playing zoom full ring NL5. I think villian was not a regular but I can't be 100% sure, He was playing only in 1 table for what I searched.
  16. #16
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    10,322
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    By the way, is there anything anybody would have done differently? I was playing zoom full ring NL5. I think villian was not a regular but I can't be 100% sure, He was playing only in 1 table for what I searched.
    I'd be 3-betting AK from the BB in most cases.

    The fact that UTG limped makes me want to keep up with this plan. The fact that MP opened makes me a little bit wary of turning AK into a bluff.

    Probably, I'd settle on a 4-bet to 11 BB, intending to get value from MPs calling range, but folding to a 5-bet. (I'm expecting UTG to fold, and if he raises, I'm probably folding.) I'm planning to C-bet on 100% of A-high or K-high flops if that happens. In my experience, folding to a re-raise OTF is prudent.

    I'm torn over whether this is really getting max value from AKo, but Hero is in the BB, and this is not a plan for all positions and boards.
  17. #17
    As for the excersice, I will choose the 2nd hand to analyse.
    We have to put 6$ into a (10+6+6+6)pot which means we should have at least a 21,43% equity.
    Using pokerstove I found that this is the profitable calling range:
    44
    KK
    QQ
    88
    42-A4
    AA
    KQ
    K8
  18. #18
  19. #19
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    I corrected the post to reflect the pot being $28 instead of $22 in that multi-way example.
  20. #20
    I couldn't find the current version of pokerstove so is there a website which can help me to solve this task?

    And btw, I don't really understand why we don't have to cound the combinations if we want to decide if we are going to call or not.
    You wrote this:
    Note: Notice that we aren’t really having to count hand combinations for this calculation. That type of counting mostly only applies to bluffing scenarios so that we know how often our opponent is folding and other types of range analysis where we need to know more than just the total equity of his range.

    So without a programm we would count the combinations which would make villain bet and figure out how many of them we can beat. And then divide those combination we can beat through all combinations which would make him bet in order to get our equity?
  21. #21
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Pursu7it View Post
    I couldn't find the current version of pokerstove so is there a website which can help me to solve this task?

    And btw, I don't really understand why we don't have to cound the combinations if we want to decide if we are going to call or not.
    You wrote this:
    Note: Notice that we aren’t really having to count hand combinations for this calculation. That type of counting mostly only applies to bluffing scenarios so that we know how often our opponent is folding and other types of range analysis where we need to know more than just the total equity of his range.

    So without a programm we would count the combinations which would make villain bet and figure out how many of them we can beat. And then divide those combination we can beat through all combinations which would make him bet in order to get our equity?
    You can get PokerStove at this link. Click the download button near the top for v1.24: http://www.thepokerbank.com/tools/software/pokerstove/

    To answer your question, yes. The reason we aren't going to count combinations here is because we aren't always going to be looking at our equity on the river. For example, if we're pre-flop and looking to call a shove, we can't just use hand combinations to decide what our equity is going to be.
  22. #22
    So recently I played a hand that fits to the topic here.
    Boomlink: http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...649_48C7204155

    Spoonitnow already told me that my turn bet was to small, which is of course true. I should protect my hand from backdoor FDs but also for example the KQ straightdraw. In addition he told me that I should have bet on the river.
    However, I thought at this point, he either has already his straight or he didn't make his draw. And if I bet on the river, I would only get called by better hands and worse would fold. And the potential KQ and backdoor diamond flushdraw missed, so I wanted to give them a chance to bluff.

    On the river I had to pay 1.31 USD into a 3.59 USD pot. So I need about 27% Equity (1.31/4.9) to call.
    At that point I assumed that in is range were hands like: 77/JJ/89 and JT (which is unlikely, because he had to have the case ten, but still possible).
    I added JJ because I raised UTG and therefore he maybe decided to flat call to setmine.
    I exclude AA and KK because he would have 3Bet me to be in a heads-up pot with me.
    I also don't think that he has something like AJ/KJ/QJ because we were in a threeway-pot - and a river shove doesn't seem to fit AJ.
    So against this range 77/JJ/89 and JT, I would have an equity of about 24.00% (< 26%). But given that I maybe encouraged him to bluff (even in a three-way pot) with missed draws (e.g. KQ) it could be a + EV call.

    Please let me know where you disagree!
    Last edited by Pursu7it; 08-05-2015 at 10:50 AM.
  23. #23
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by Pursu7it View Post
    So recently I played a hand that fits to the topic here.
    Boomlink: http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...649_48C7204155

    Spoonitnow already told me that my turn bet was to small, which is of course true. I should protect my hand from backdoor FDs but also for example the KQ straightdraw. In addition he told me that I should have bet on the river.
    However, I thought at this point, he either has already his straight or he didn't make his draw. And if I bet on the river, I would only get called by better hands and worse would fold. And the potential KQ and backdoor diamond flushdraw missed, so I wanted to give them a chance to bluff.
    Your thought process here isn't necessarily bad, but it's maybe a little misguided. His range is going to consist of a fair number of one-pair type hands as well (edit: you actually reference this below). Your check/call line would be much better with a somewhat weaker hand that couldn't profitably shove but could profitably check/call. This idea of arranging your range is a little outside of the scope of what we're talking about in this thread (and it's something I'm going to cover later in the NLHE Foundations Course), but the basic idea is that your shoving range for value should consist of stronger hands than your check/call range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pursu7it View Post
    On the river I had to pay 1.31 USD into a 3.59 USD pot. So I need about 27% Equity (1.31/4.9) to call.
    At that point I assumed that in is range were hands like: 77/JJ/89 and JT (which is unlikely, because he had to have the case ten, but still possible).
    I added JJ because I raised UTG and therefore he maybe decided to flat call to setmine.
    I exclude AA and KK because he would have 3Bet me to be in a heads-up pot with me.
    I also don't think that he has something like AJ/KJ/QJ because we were in a threeway-pot - and a river shove doesn't seem to fit AJ.
    So against this range 77/JJ/89 and JT, I would have an equity of about 24.00% (< 26%). But given that I maybe encouraged him to bluff (even in a three-way pot) with missed draws (e.g. KQ) it could be a + EV call.

    Please let me know where you disagree!
    The bold here is where you would have gotten more value from shoving since he calls with these hands, but he probably doesn't shove them.

    Your calculation looks good, and I hope you learned something from going through this. As we work through the rest of the foundations series, you'll learn a lot of different ways to figure out if your own plays were good so that you can have self-directed and forum-directed study that you lead for yourself so that you can control the pace of your poker work.

    Having reads or stats of any kind on this guy would also help tremendously.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 08-05-2015 at 12:01 PM.
  24. #24
    His range is going to consist of a fair number of one-pair type hands as well (edit: you actually reference this below). Your check/call line would be much better with a somewhat weaker hand that couldn't profitably shove but could profitably check/call.

    I didn't planned to check/call, I wanted to check/shove. Because I wanted to give him the opportunity to bluff or "value bet" his TPTK.


    The bold here is where you would have gotten more value from shoving since he calls with these hands, but he probably doesn't shove them.


    Against a fish I would shove but he was new on the table so I had just a few hands. But I don't think anyone (expect a fish/fun player/new player) would call a shove in this spot with TPTK without any reads/tells.
    I opened UTG, bet twice in an multipot and the board was dangerous.

    Thanks for the reply!
  25. #25
    Alright, first example; jammed on pre-flop.

    Hero can profitably call with; 33+, A5s+, KTs+, A8o+ and KQo.

    Facing a river bet;

    QQ+, 88, 44, KQs, K8s, A4s, K4s, Q4s, J4s, T4s, 94s, 84s, 74s, 64s, 54s, 42s+, A4o, K4o, Q4o, J4o, T4o, 94o, 84o, 74o, 64o, 54o, 42o+.

    Pretty much anything above two pair (top and bottom two pair) is a profitable call.
    Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
  26. #26
    i choose Ex 1: i run equilab and see 33 is good but 22 not enough eq to call
    A5s is enough eq and A4s not
    A8o is enough eq and A7o is not
    KJo is enough eq and QJo is not
    T9s,QJs,K9s is not enough eq to call, KTs is enough
    then my answer:33+, A5s+, KTs+, A8o+, KJo+ is hand hero cann call profitable on this situtation

    PS: Try run again an see KJo is 47,21% eq is seem close but KQo and not KJo is more correct answers
    Last edited by othd13; 08-31-2015 at 10:33 PM. Reason: count wrong
  27. #27
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by othd13 View Post
    i choose Ex 1: i run equilab and see 33 is good but 22 not enough eq to call
    A5s is enough eq and A4s not
    A8o is enough eq and A7o is not
    KJo is enough eq and QJo is not
    T9s,QJs,K9s is not enough eq to call, KTs is enough
    then my answer:33+, A5s+, KTs+, A8o+, KJo+ is hand hero cann call profitable on this situtation

    PS: Try run again an see KJo is 47,21% eq is seem close but KQo and not KJo is more correct answers
    Compare the equities for A6s, A5s and A4s. Post those here if you would. I want to show you something fun.
  28. #28
    A4s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9 } = 47,35%
    A5s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9o}= 48,24%
    A6s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9o}=48,42%
  29. #29
    spoonitnow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    14,219
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by othd13 View Post
    A4s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9 } = 47,35%
    A5s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9o}= 48,24%
    A6s vs {22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T 9o}=48,42%
    I wanted to point out how close A5 and A4 were to A6 because of the increased chances of making straights lol. /random
  30. #30
    Ok, i see this. Thank you
  31. #31
    so i did the second example and the range i came up with is:

    QQ+,88,44,A4s,KQs,K4s,Q4s,J4s,T4s,94s,84s,74s,64s, 54s,42s+,A4o,KQo,K4o,Q4o,J4o,T4o,94o,84o,74o,64o,5 4o,42o+
  32. #32
    HAND 1:

    Folds to the SB who jams for 20bb with any ace, any pocket pair and any two cards nine and up:

    Profitable calling range is A8o+, A7s+, KQo, KJs+, 44+

    HAND 2:

    We hold AsKs on a board of KhQs8d4h4s. The river pot was $10 before any betting. The first Villain bets $6, the second Villain calls, and the action is to us. The first Villain would bet with {44, AA, KK, QQ, KQ, AK, KJ}, and the second Villain would call with {KQ, AK, KJ}.

    Profitable calling hands are:

    QQ+, 44, KQ, K8s, K4s, 54s, A4s

    Of course depending on the action that got us to the river some of this range might not make it there. There are also lots of hands that are profitable calls that just don't get to the river because we don't even play them preflop in this scenario.
    Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 09-23-2015 at 07:05 AM.
  33. #33
    Problem 1: A5s+, A8o+, 33+, KQo, KTs
  34. #34
    problem two, the multiway pot on the river hands that are profitable to call on river are
    AA
    KK
    KQ
    QQ
    88
    44
    K8
    K4
    Q4
    A4
    42
    43
    45
    46
    47
    48
    49
    T4
    J4
  35. #35
    Problem 2

    Quads: 44
    Sets: KK, QQ, 88
    Trips: 4x
    2 Pair: KQ, K8 (but not Q8)
    Overpair: AA
  36. #36
    Hand 1:

    Step 1

    Equity needed: 47,5%

    Step 2

    Hands with more than 47,5% Equity:

    33+, A8o+, A5s+, KQo+, KTs+,

    Hand 2:

    Step 1

    Equity needed:

    21,4%

    Step 2

    Hands with enough equity:

    44, 88, QQ, KK, AA
    4x
    K8

    Considering flop and turn action I would only keep A4, K4 and Q4 in the x4 Range and even A4 might not be the best idea.
    Last edited by ErnieohneBert; 09-28-2015 at 08:46 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •