JJ bb mono flop

villain is 13/8 over 24 ATS 20%
default to 3 bet?


$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.25)
UTG+1 ($4)
MP1 ($4.67)
MP2 ($8.70)
MP3 ($9.75)
CO ($4.30)
BTN ($10.57)
SB ($5.05)
kickass (BB) ($10)

Pre-Flop: ($0.25, 9 players) kickass is BB
[CO posts $0.10]
4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.50, 3 folds, kickass calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15, 2 players)
kickass checks, MP3 bets $0.77, kickass calls $0.77

Turn: ($2.69, 2 players)
kickass checks, MP3 bets $1.79, $1.79 to kickass ($8.73)?

I'd have raised the flop to find out where I was mate.

The way played tho I'd be calling this down and hoping for a blank on the river.

Originally Posted by DonkWannabe

I'd have raised the flop to find out where I was mate.

The way played tho I'd be calling this down and hoping for a blank on the river.

Please don't do this. Raising 'for information' especially OOP is so gay, because when he floats your ass w/ Ah2h just to see if you're fo rillz (obv exaggerating a bit here) and then bets 1/3 pot and you rage and fold and he shows the bluff, you look and feel like a twat.

Yes, default to 3betting pre here, imo. He's not folding 77-JJ, and likely 4bets QQ+. Isn't folding AJs+ (at the very least not AQs) probly doesnt fold SCs >89s, maybe doesnt fold KQs, KJs?

Point is, you get a lot of value pre, take it down some of the time, and find out EXACTLY where you're at some of the time. He probably 4bets AK but I'm still not continuing when he does, which sucks but thats ok because he's calling some % of the time w/ it (especially offsuit combos) but he's continuing w/ a lot of stuff we do v v well against.

agreed. 3 bet is best. as played?

c/f flop.

as played, c/f turn

although, donking like .75-1.05 on flop would be pretty sexy. If raised, fold. If called, shut down.

Since you flatted pre, donking would be best. Most people will play fit or fold on this type of board.

I think both 3-betting and flatting pre are fine. I actually like flatting a little more because I don't want to play JJ OOP in a 3-bet pot when my reads (though slightly unreliable as they are because of sample size) say his raising range is fairly tight. I'm gonna hate flops with any AKQ, but will feel the need to cbet them because those flops hit my range bigger than his. I don't want to be 4-bet off JJ by QQ+ because the implied odds on J-high flops are delicious.

Flatting gives me nice relative position on the flop, with a strong hand that I am comfortable getting away from on A,K high flops, and can play in such a way that I make money on undercard flops and when I set up. The reason I make money on unders flops is that by flatting I've kept his range wide enough to have lots of equity against it.

OK so we've hit an unders flop (good) and the board is monotone and we don't have a club (good and bad). We're ahead of his range, which is mainly unpaired overcards, and the board is good to cbet as many villains won't continue without a club.

So he'll likely c-bet his whole range if checked to. I think leading out is therefore bad as it costs us that c-bet with the hands we crushed that wouldn't call a bet.

I think folding is bad. We think we are ahead of his range and this is a nice flop to cbet for him with all of it, I'm not folding.

I think raising > calling. I want to charge all the draws (inc overcards) for a turn card and if I just call, I'm going to find life difficult on the turn being OOP and will either end up folding to a bet or letting him have 2 chances to draw out and get to a cheap river. Plus there are lots of hands we beat that may call a flop raise (lots of them representing big mistakes such as nutty club draws).

I agree that "raising to find out where you are in the hand" is bad, but I don't see what's bad about raising when ahead of villains range for value and to charge draws.

I don't think 3b'ing pre is good against this tight of a range.

Don't donk the flop. You fold out hands you beat that likely would've cbet and good draws are often gonna raise you out of the hand.

The turn is interesting. I actually want to just nit fold. Draws are going to take the free card a lot of the time, and this nit is going to pot control with any value hand worse than our hand, so I don't really know what we beat. Even if he does barrel this off-suited 4 IP, a club+overs hand has a ton of equity against us anyway.

At first I thought roid's suggestion of c/f flop was horrible but it might not be so bad. Based on his sizing pre, I'm giving him TT-QQ AQs+ AK, stove gives us <44%, so it's tight. I think we can c/c this to showdown, but that depends on how accurate my range is and if we expect him to be barrelling AK. If villain can bet pre to this size with KK/AA but not 88/99, then it's a clear c/f on flop. I kinda want to see a showdown so I can make notes about his open sizing.

Pre flop we're a little ahead of the range I gave him, and villain folds very rarely to a 3bet, so we're good to squeeze value out pre, imo. Fold to 4bet since he now has QQ AKs only, which fucks us, 2:1 dog. I don't hate calling the open though, since we know little about this villain and we're oop, plus he might be wider at the top of his range than I expect given sizing.

^^ His sizing is because there's a poster to whom he's OOP.

ong did you notice the CO posted, I think his sizing pre is pretty standard.

I have him a lot wider than that pf after 24. ATo and KQo should definitely be in his range if not KJ, A9

call and 3b pre both fine.
check-fold flop isn't terrible, check-call seems gross, checkraise over-reps but will induce a fold often (i don't like it though), donking is kinda cool

Originally Posted by daven

check-call seems gross cool

this is what i thought, i didnt consider donk, i think it wouldve been kinda cool. i really wanted to know if i could chk fold the flop.

Ofc you can c/f flop.

Ginger is right saying we're ahead against a decent part of his range, but any FD has good equity against us, overs w/ a FD have really good equity against us, and just straight overs are going to hit sometimes as well.

Idk, im a nit on monotone boards w/o the draw OOP. I prefer a donk here since he's fairly nitty and will fold anything that doesn't fit this flop well.

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Ofc you can c/f flop.

Ginger is right saying we're ahead against a decent part of his range, but any FD has good equity against us, overs w/ a FD have really good equity against us, and just straight overs are going to hit sometimes as well.

Idk, im a nit on monotone boards w/o the draw OOP. I prefer a donk here since he's fairly nitty and will fold anything that doesn't fit this flop well.

Just because they have good equity doesn't mean we are not ahead of the range, have more equity than them, and hence can value raise having got his auto cbet in.

Our hand is super easy to get away from if we're beaten or out-drawn we're offering zero implied odds.

I really don't see why donking is cool. If the goal is to get a massive chunk of his range that we were already ahead of anyway and that would have bet 6-8 BBs, to fold before that bet goes in, then it's cool. If we are happy being raised off of the best hand by draws, it's cool.

Could we at least define a range and explain why donking is cool vs that range?

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Idk, im a nit on monotone boards w/o the draw OOP. I prefer a donk here since he's fairly nitty and will fold anything that doesn't fit this flop well.

This might sound crazy, but I don't see being OOP against a nit as being that bad. He has to take advantage of that position for us to get exploited, and since I don't really see him making a ton of multi-street bluffs, A) we're not going to often get folded off the best hand because he's not going to bluff after we call the flop and B) we're not going to often be putting more money in with the worst of it because we won't be bluff catching given that villain doesn't bluff.

Obviously all of this is based on the premise that he's not going to be barreling turns light, which I might be wrong about being a safe assumption.

Originally Posted by surviva316

This might sound crazy, but I don't see being OOP against a nit as being that bad. He has to take advantage of that position for us to get exploited, and since I don't really see him making a ton of multi-street bluffs, A) we're not going to often get folded off the best hand because he's not going to bluff after we call the flop and B) we're not going to often be putting more money in with the worst of it because we won't be bluff catching given that villain doesn't bluff.

Obviously all of this is based on the premise that he's not going to be barreling turns light, which I might be wrong about being a safe assumption.

13/8 after 24. I don't think we have enough data to say he's that tight or nitty.

So you want to c/r and fold to a raise?

Whats the plan if he calls? B/f? \

What if he calls then? C/f, b/f? c/c? Obviously dependent on the cards that roll off but say they're blanks.

I'm not saying donking is the ABSO best way to go about this hand, this is a spot where I would struggle with while playing so I'm trying to get my thoughts out there so they can get either picked about or agreed with.

Yeah I missed CO posting, sorry I suck etc.

Ok my range is bollocks. But now I hate folding to his pretty standard cbet, he's firing like his whole range when we check over to him. We're lying down and rolling over with an overpair, seems crazy when his range has barely changed since pre flop. I know I suck compared to most of you guys, so help me out here... after we check over to him, are there any hands in his range we expect him to check behind? If not, check folding seems absurd to me.

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

13/8 after 24. I don't think we have enough data to say he's that tight or nitty.

In the context of the BC, I should probably be less liberal in using this word. Also, since I've been away from the game for almost a year, I probably should be less liberal in making assumptions about how these stakes play.

BUT, as confirmed by my short time back at 4nl 6m (LOL!), it does still seem to be the case that micro regs are the botty, not-too-balanced type of players. They don't seem to 3b light or go for multi-street bluffs or float or abuse the button or any of that. As such, I would assume that the vast majority of players running 13/8 with a 20% ATS over their first 24 hands aren't going to be barreling light a "scary" board.

It's kind of a semantics things because everyone's so botty at micros that the word nit almost means something different in this context.

I like calling pre better than 3betting, I would assume we'd be crushed by his 4bet range and we'd have a tough time playing OOP in a 3bet pot against his 3bet calling range (half the time the flop will have at least one AKQ).

Flop and turn also seem fine to me. I think it's tough to show aggression on any street, because we'll end up against a range of hands that crush us plus hands that have decent equity against us. With such a small sample on the villain, I think it's safe to assume that his double-barrel range is too strong (again: better hands or strong draws), I'd just check/fold.

Roid's suggestion of a flop ch/f isn't horrible either, since there are so many cards that will suck for us and pretty much nothing that will improve our hand, unless we hit a runner-runner boat.

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

So you want to c/r and fold to a raise?

Whats the plan if he calls? B/f? \ yup

What if he calls then? C/f, b/f? c/c? Obviously dependent on the cards that roll off but say they're blanks.

He probably only calls both flop and turn with bigger overpairs, made flushes and sets and the nuttiest of the draws. He'd have raised some of the flushes already so there are less of those. I don't like b/f at these stakes unless I have reads that they can fold big overpairs. So it would be c/c or c/f.

That would depend on sizing, but if he bets his range is surely missed draws, some slowplayed flushes and maybe some sets but he might also check these/have got the money in earlier. Not sure what I'd do without knowing the pot odds.

Thank you for taking the time to anwser my questions.

Am I the only person who thinks villain is firing his entire range on this flop? It's a great flop to bluff, any idiot can figure that out, there's tons of hands in hero's range that he folds. Surviva is right that most people at micros are playing robotic poker, I was guilty of this until I had my session with bikes. Cbetting flop with initiative is a pretty robotic action though, no thought is required until hero calls or raises. All it takes is the most basic understanding of fold equity.

When roid says he can c/f this flop with jacks, it tells me that I have more fold equity in these spots than I first thought.

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Thank you for taking the time to anwser my questions.

Dude, what's happened to you over the last 8 months? Did you get diagnosed with something fatal and now your perspective on everything has changed or something?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Am I the only person who thinks villain is firing his entire range on this flop? It's a great flop to bluff, any idiot can figure that out, there's tons of hands in hero's range that he folds. Surviva is right that most people at micros are playing robotic poker, I was guilty of this until I had my session with bikes. Cbetting flop with initiative is a pretty robotic action though, no thought is required until hero calls or raises. All it takes is the most basic understanding of fold equity.

When roid says he can c/f this flop with jacks, it tells me that I have more fold equity in these spots than I first thought.

No if you read my first post I say folding flop is terrible because he cbets his whole range and we are ahead of it.

That is also why I think donking costs us those cbets, and why out of calling vs raising, I actually like raising (but don't mind calling).

Originally Posted by surviva316

Dude, what's happened to you over the last 8 months? Did you get diagnosed with something fatal and now your perspective on everything has changed or something?

I've noticed him do this the last couple of days everytime someone who "seemingly" knows more about him than poker.

"Well done sir"

"Thank you for your critique"

lol

I don't get why you are lol'ing at someone who is appreciative of advice offered by those that ARE better than that person. I haven't played regular poker in almost a year, my skills are extremely rusty and I think its only right to ask for and thank anyone for their advice.

Also, the BC is a ghost town compared to what it used to be. This is because all the higher stakes players (won't name names, not my place) think you are all a fucking joke and have zero chance of doing anything. Mostly its because when they post advice, its either ignored or no appreciation is shown when its obvious that the person could have taken the time to do something more profitable. (Their time is a lot more valuable than yours.)

So fuck off Huey. Maybe you could take a page out of my book and thank a regular poster for taking the time to offer advice in a thread you have made that changes your perspective on that particular situation. Similar to how gingerwizard (and others) changed my perspective in this hand. His arguments were solid, his advise and reasoning logical. This took time for him to think and type out, so whats so 'lol' about me thanking him for doing it?

Gtfo.

Originally Posted by surviva316

Dude, what's happened to you over the last 8 months? Did you get diagnosed with something fatal and now your perspective on everything has changed or something?

I like to think I've matured a wee bit, but unlikely.

Probably cause I haven't smoked weed in almost a month.

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

I don't get why you are lol'ing at someone who is appreciative of advice offered by those that ARE better than that person. I haven't played regular poker in almost a year, my skills are extremely rusty and I think its only right to ask for and thank anyone for their advice.

Also, the BC is a ghost town compared to what it used to be. This is because all the higher stakes players (won't name names, not my place) think you are all a fucking joke and have zero chance of doing anything. Mostly its because when they post advice, its either ignored or no appreciation is shown when its obvious that the person could have taken the time to do something more profitable. (Their time is a lot more valuable than yours.)

So fuck off Huey. Maybe you could take a page out of my book and thank a regular poster for taking the time to offer advice in a thread you have made that changes your perspective on that particular situation. Similar to how gingerwizard (and others) changed my perspective in this hand. His arguments were solid, his advise and reasoning logical. This took time for him to think and type out, so whats so 'lol' about me thanking him for doing it?

Gtfo.

chill out man

No because its people like you that drive all the good thought provoking regs out of the BC. Maybe don't be such a fucking cunt and I wouldn't be chewing your ass.

I appreciate all the advice given here, it has made me think which is all I can really ask for. Muchos thanks for taking the time.

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

I don't get why you are lol'ing at someone who is appreciative of advice offered by those that ARE better than that person. I haven't played regular poker in almost a year, my skills are extremely rusty and I think its only right to ask for and thank anyone for their advice.

Also, the BC is a ghost town compared to what it used to be. This is because all the higher stakes players (won't name names, not my place) think you are all a fucking joke and have zero chance of doing anything. Mostly its because when they post advice, its either ignored or no appreciation is shown when its obvious that the person could have taken the time to do something more profitable. (Their time is a lot more valuable than yours.)

So fuck off Huey. Maybe you could take a page out of my book and thank a regular poster for taking the time to offer advice in a thread you have made that changes your perspective on that particular situation. Similar to how gingerwizard (and others) changed my perspective in this hand. His arguments were solid, his advise and reasoning logical. This took time for him to think and type out, so whats so 'lol' about me thanking him for doing it?

Gtfo.

There's the dranger I've been missing :P

Kickin' it up a notch! BAM.

I love the use of "you're" as if anyone in here plays higher than 25 or 50nl. I.d wager a decent amount that these "high stakes players" don't think much of you either.

HS players probably don't post because of strat strat reasons (you prob don't even know what that is), not because they don't think people are worthy.

What stakes do you play?

I would probably just c/f here a lot to be honest. Not really looking to call here OOP with so many ugly cards coming on the turn. Donking might be ok.

personally myself and a lot of higher players i talk to think very highly of roid_rage. he was at 50nl and probably would have went a lot higher if not for black friday.

Originally Posted by Huey_Freeman

I love the use of "you're" as if anyone in here plays higher than 25 or 50nl. I.d wager a decent amount that these "high stakes players" don't think much of you either.

HS players probably don't post because of strat strat reasons (you prob don't even know what that is), not because they don't think people are worthy.

What stakes do you play?

You are correct. I do not know what 'strat strat' is. I'm not that concerned about not knowing either, so mmmmmkayyy....

As for them not think much of me either. I'd say that's fairly accurate. However there is a smaller group of them that I talk w/ on an almost daily basis on Skype. I won't name names, because again, its not my place. I'll go far enough to say that one of them has made more than 200k over the last 2 years playing poker and has grinded up from the micros.

I play 10nl on Merge. I don't understand why you would want to know this though? I haven't acted like I'm all knowing about poker strat, and in fact have thanked players for offering logically (as far as I can tell) advice, which you lol'd at.

I'm not really interested in a cock-waving war with you on a poker forum. The only I problem I have with you started when you lol'd at me for thanking posters for offering good advice. It takes all of 30 seconds, doesn't hurt anybody, and lets that person know that his contribution is appreciated. So I don't see what the lol is for?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the first bolded part either. Are you suggesting no one on this site plays higher than 50nl? Micro2Macro consistently plays at 2/4-5/10 and has played at 25/50 games? Plenty of people around here have played at higher stakes than 25 or 50nl. Look up the twins if you want another example.

LOL you don't even know what "strat strat" is? What a nub!!!!

Stax!

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

I'm not really interested in a cock-waving war with you on a poker forum.

now that i've had the last word i'm locking this thread of pointless banter. i hope you are all proud of this edrama and to all of you i say...