I Think I Might Just Suck At This Game - Advice Please

Hi All,

Kind of a bleak day today for internet poker already I know.. so sorry for the downer post, but I could really use some advice.

I can't seem to win at this game and I'm pretty down about it right now and not sure where to go from here. I guess I'll start with some history..

I started playing online about 2 years ago and micro sng's grew on me quickly. That's really all I played for over a year and I had mixed results. At one point I built up $50 to close to $300.. but later I would move up stakes slightly and lost about all of it. Long story short.. I would grow bored of sng's and decided to try the cash tables.

Over time I have read numerous articles on micro cash games and watched countless videos. Lots of them seemed to contain good ideas. I mention this just so nobody mistakenly thinks I'm afraid of homework.. quite the opposite.. back to my story...

A few weeks ago, after playing a few thousand hands of 5 & 10nl (mostly Rush) I bought hold'em manager and made $1000 deposit to allow myself some breathing room to make mistakes and learn. Well it's been a disaster.

I'm down -$350 over 20,000 hands. About half of that is losses from 25nl and the other half from 10nl as I dropped limits a couple weeks back.

Thanks to Rakeback and a 1rst place 90 man sng finish (I still play occasional sng's - but rarely) I found myself with $800 remaining a few days ago and decided to seek out some coaching. I found a coach that I like and bought a $200 5 session package from him. Leaving about $600 bankroll for me.

Well my first session with the coach went real well.. I felt like some leaks of mine were identified and lots of the things we talked about made sense to me. I came away from it excited to play more and excited for our next session, which was supposed to take place this afternoon.

Well in the 3 days since that session I'm down another $60 at 10nl over 5000 hands.

My second session with my coach this afternoon was canceled for the time being due to all the problems in the US today regarding online poker.. (he makes his living playing poker and coaching.)

So as I stated earlier I'm down in the dumps about this and I'm not sure what to do next. I'm literally afraid at this point to sit down and play and destroy my bankroll further. Yet I still have a love for the game. It seems I've tried everything from less tables to more tables to Rush & back to standard tables. The results are consistently downhill regardless.

I can't say that I've noticed any improvement whatsoever since I've taken the limited coaching advice I've received and put it to practice. I realize there is still a lot more to do with the coach so I'm not giving up but it's still dis-heartening.

Anyway, thanks to anyone that reads this that has any advice to offer. Believe me, I'm all ears.

Eh, I sympathize but now is really not the time to be worrying about one's game. Seems more important to know whether or not we will be able to play online poker at all, right now.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

Eh, I sympathize but now is really not the time to be worrying about one's game. Seems more important to know whether or not we will be able to play online poker at all, right now.

I'm not worried about that at all. It's normal human nature for people to panic when things like this happen. Online poker is a billion dollar industry.. it's not going to pack it in and walk away with it's tail between it's legs.

I admit it is super frustrating though. Lots of people out there that just don't need the stress and worry.

i think starting at 10s or 25s with coaching may offer you the fastest results in terms of improvement if you put in the effort, but with that you should realize that the money you put into it needs to mean a lot less to you because you're probably going to be losing/breakeven and losing after coaching cost for some time

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

i think starting at 10s or 25s with coaching may offer you the fastest results in terms of improvement if you put in the effort, but with that you should realize that the money you put into it needs to mean a lot less to you because you're probably going to be losing/breakeven and losing after coaching cost for some time

Hey thanks for taking the time to read and comment. I really appreciate it and I know your right.

I didn't mean to come off as whining about the money.. that's really not it at all.. it's the perpetual sense of failure that gets to me. Breakeven would be fantastic right about now!

Thanks again.

I only started playing a couple of weeks ago and I know what you mean about loving it but wishing to do better!

You're really well rolled (I started with $40 at 2NL), so you've got plenty to work with. Maybe the thing to do is move down in stakes so you feel more comfortable with downswings and practice on making your game more solid on more fishy tables.

Receiving coaching is also a really good idea. I've found that after each session my game has improved dramatically...until I start thinking I'm the queen and start doing some silly fancy stuff that loses me a massive pot anyway!

Just keep at it and hopefully you'll be raking in the monies soon!

Originally Posted by Petulie

I only started playing a couple of weeks ago and I know what you mean about loving it but wishing to do better!

You're really well rolled (I started with $40 at 2NL), so you've got plenty to work with. Maybe the thing to do is move down in stakes so you feel more comfortable with downswings and practice on making your game more solid on more fishy tables.

Receiving coaching is also a really good idea. I've found that after each session my game has improved dramatically...until I start thinking I'm the queen and start doing some silly fancy stuff that loses me a massive pot anyway!

Just keep at it and hopefully you'll be raking in the monies soon!

Thanks for that!

I've been thinking about deposing $40 or $50 on a new site for while now.. just to see if I could grind out the bonus and build a roll that way. Could be a fun challenge.

Most of my accounts I've had for a while now and broke them in playing sng's so I have never really done the whole grind for bonus bit.

hey dude. forgive the lack of responses. i think we're all pretty transfixed on the developments which are taking place in the FTR community thread.

Originally Posted by rpm

hey dude. forgive the lack of responses. i think we're all pretty transfixed on the developments which are taking place in the FTR community thread.

Oh for sure. I totally understand that. Thanks for taking the time to notice me tho

I noticed you too

But I'm too depressed. I think I'm going to start dressing in all black with really cool long hair and eyeliner. GG poker.

Originally Posted by kmind

I noticed you too

But I'm too depressed. I think I'm going to start dressing in all black with really cool long hair and eyeliner. GG poker.

Hey, there's no excuse for eye liner!!

I know it seems real bleak right now for US players... but these developments are new and I just don't believe that this won't work itself out.. probably for the better.

There is too many players and WAY too much money in it. And bottom line... nobody.. not even the US government can stop it. Prohibition didn't work either.

They might have Tilt & Stars by the short and curly's for a few days... maybe even for good.. who knows.. but if that's the case then there will be new players before long.

In my opinion this isn't the time to get depressed.. it's the time to get pro-active! E-mail your local representatives, get a Pokerstars tattoo, set shit on fire and punch anybody that disagrees with us in the face.

At the very least, refuse to stop playing and support the sites still taking the risk and accepting Americans.. cause they are out there.. and stand by stars and Tilt for the time being.

Try to focus less on results for now and more on noting improvments in your game, writing down and applying new things you've leanred etc. It can take a while sometimes for everything you've been learning to click into place so just keep grinding and really making sure you're thinking about every decision, doing lots of HH reviews and documenting the lessons learned from these. The results will follow eventually but learning should be your primary focus.

How about you start an OP here where you can document everything you learn both from your own review and from your coach.

Variance can be a bitch and remember that even if you're playing better your results wont necessarily show this right away. Avoid playing tilted and see it as one massive long haul learning curve.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Try to focus less on results for now and more on noting improvments in your game, writing down and applying new things you've leanred etc. It can take a while sometimes for everything you've been learning to click into place so just keep grinding and really making sure you're thinking about every decision, doing lots of HH reviews and documenting the lessons learned from these. The results will follow eventually but learning should be your primary focus.

How about you start an OP here where you can document everything you learn both from your own review and from your coach.

Variance can be a bitch and remember that even if you're playing better your results wont necessarily show this right away. Avoid playing tilted and see it as one massive long haul learning curve.

Good luck.

That is great advice.. I agree that it takes time for everything to click and make sense. I'm definitely learning that! I may be starting such a blog type thread here.

I have to agree completely that results aren't the best way to measure improvement short term.

Nice to hear from you.. I am planning to contact you in a couple weeks.. I hear you may be able to help a guy with his 6-max game? My current coach focuses on full ring. So that's where I'm at right now.. but I like both.

Cool man. Hit me up when you're ready!

20k hands huh. And paid for some coaching. Ok, post your stats in a thread here and get some feedback. If you don't already have a tracking program (holdem manager or poker tracker 3) then don't waste your time with the next 4hrs of coaching until you've got your hands in and your stats posted. The feedback from your stats post may be harsh, may not be - but it will be valuable (e.g. see chatzilla's various 'help me with my game stats' posts the last month or so)

Then:
1) read all the stickies in the beginners circle - but partiularly spoonitnow's bankroll management post/thread. The more of this you read and understand the less of your coaching time will be wasted on things like 'should i fold 79s from ep at a full ring table', 'why should i 3b AK? isn't it a drawing hand?', 'what are the pros and cons of various approaches to playing 44 from utg at a fullring table?, etc - and you will get more value from your coaching money.
2) Decide on one game (Full Ring or 6-max, cash or tourneys, etc) and stick to it.
3) Move down in stakes.
4) play 5nl for a few hands - until you've made 8 bi profit at the tables.
5) then 10nl. Don't move up until you've made 15bi profit at the tables.
etc.

Originally Posted by daven

20k hands huh. And paid for some coaching. Ok, post your stats in a thread here and get some feedback. If you don't already have a tracking program (holdem manager or poker tracker 3) then don't waste your time with the next 4hrs of coaching until you've got your hands in and your stats posted. The feedback from your stats post may be harsh, may not be - but it will be valuable (e.g. see chatzilla's various 'help me with my game stats' posts the last month or so)

Then:
1) read all the stickies in the beginners circle - but partiularly spoonitnow's bankroll management post/thread. The more of this you read and understand the less of your coaching time will be wasted on things like 'should i fold 79s from ep at a full ring table', 'why should i 3b AK? isn't it a drawing hand?', 'what are the pros and cons of various approaches to playing 44 from utg at a fullring table?, etc - and you will get more value from your coaching money.
2) Decide on one game (Full Ring or 6-max, cash or tourneys, etc) and stick to it.
3) Move down in stakes.
4) play 5nl for a few hands - until you've made 8 bi profit at the tables.
5) then 10nl. Don't move up until you've made 15bi profit at the tables.
etc.

The thread regarding my stats is a good idea.. I think I will do that.. probably first thing in the morning. I'm at work now or I would do it now.

I do have Hold'em Manager... I say as much in my original post. I did make an error in the original post though that I see now.. it wasn't 20,000 hands.. it's 30, 000. So maybe that makes the losses seem a little more probable?

I have read through many of the stickies you mention.. I would say I watch poker vids or read poker articles for 2-3 hours every night for over a year now.. I have a lot of spare time at work and that's exactly what I do with it. I mention in the first post that I'm not afraid of homework..

As far as deciding a game goes.. I'm not sure yet. The coach I have now is for full ring.. then I may try a 6-max coach and make a decision after that time. I have already gone down in stakes.. I'm thinking 10nl should still be ok for now, but I will certainly be heeding your advice about the 15bi before I move up again.

Thanks for the detailed answer, I think something like this is what I was hoping I would get.

i think the best thing to do (the best thing besides paying for coaching) is to start posting hands on this forum that you were unsure about your play in - detailing things like: what you think your opponent's range is on every street, how your opponent's range will change if you raise/bet/etc, why you chose to take certain actions (ie your thought process which lead to you taking the actions). also, ask a shitload of questions. granted, some people on these forums do seem to get some sort of personal enjoyment in belittling worse or newer players, but all of them are willing to give you advice if you're able to swallow your pride and continue working on your game despite setbacks etc.

good luck!

i seem to be getting into a habit of not reading posts properly...
cool that you have HEM, go get this report Position (Full Ring) - Holdem Manager Forums and include the position stats in your post

Originally Posted by daven

i seem to be getting into a habit of not reading posts properly...
cool that you have HEM, go get this report Position (Full Ring) - Holdem Manager Forums and include the position stats in your post

Thanks for the report. I am getting to work on this right now.

Originally Posted by rpm

i think the best thing to do (the best thing besides paying for coaching) is to start posting hands on this forum that you were unsure about your play in - detailing things like: what you think your opponent's range is on every street, how your opponent's range will change if you raise/bet/etc, why you chose to take certain actions (ie your thought process which lead to you taking the actions). also, ask a shitload of questions. granted, some people on these forums do seem to get some sort of personal enjoyment in belittling worse or newer players, but all of them are willing to give you advice if you're able to swallow your pride and continue working on your game despite setbacks etc.

good luck!

I plan to do exactly this in the future.. especially now that I feel I'm starting to know some people here a little bit.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by derekeverett

A few weeks ago, after playing a few thousand hands of 5 & 10nl (mostly Rush) I bought hold'em manager and made $1000 deposit to allow myself some breathing room to make mistakes and learn. Well it's been a disaster.

I'm down -$350 over 20,000 hands. About half of that is losses from 25nl and the other half from 10nl as I dropped limits a couple weeks back.

Those 25NL and 10NL losses, are they also from Rush Poker?

If it is, first thing you gotta know is, you wont learn to play poker if you play Rush. Rush is basically evil bingo machine that pays you off when you play it wrong just so it can kick you deep down in the minus later on spiced up with a extra amount of tilt on top of it.

Play some real poker first, then go screw around with rush later if you wanto.

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

Those 25NL and 10NL losses, are they also from Rush Poker?

If it is, first thing you gotta know is, you wont learn to play poker if you play Rush. Rush is basically evil bingo machine that pays you off when you play it wrong just so it can kick you deep down in the minus later on spiced up with a extra amount of tilt on top of it.

Play some real poker first, then go screw around with rush later if you wanto.

Yes the losses are ALMOST all from Rush poker. My coach asked me to get off Rush for a while as well so I have.

Thanks.