Drawing hands

I have realized something very interesting and a possible leak in my game that I wanted to share with you folks and get your opinions on.

I think that one of my biggest leaks is when I limp in with drawing hands, particularly small pairs. And one the questions I have been asking myself as of late is:

What am I expecting to develop with this hand?

When I enter a pot, limping in with a few other limpers, what am I hoping to happen? Most likely everyone else is on a drawing hand to just like me and are betting on throwing their hands away in 9 out of 10 flops (including that one lucky one that I hit my set on).

So I am never going to get paid off with these sets! The only way I will get action after the flop when/if I hit a set will be at the same time someone else hits the flush and I am an underdog to win.

So, as an experiment in my NL50 games I am going to change the way I play small pairs and suited connectors preflop. I am ONLY going to play them to a raise (meaning I am going to raise with them if no one has yet to raise, or I am going to call a raise (obviously the more favorable situation)).

In other words when it comes to small pairs I am going to throw all caution to the wind when it comes to pot odds and play them based solely on implied odds.

BTW this may be the popular strategy and I just missed the boat completely. Let me know if you play like this and how its working out for you.

I usually always raise pockets pairs and suited connectors to build up a nice pot. You'd be surprised how many times you'll destack someone limping in with a PP turned set when the flop two pair with the crap the limped. I think you have a good idea but maybe not based on exactly the right reasons. Yes, limping drawing hands can be costly if someone else hits a draw but it's not necessarily a bad play in general especially in early position.

Originally Posted by Renton

I am going to change the way I play small pairs and suited connectors preflop. I am ONLY going to play them to a raise (meaning I am going to raise with them if no one has yet to raise, or I am going to call a raise (obviously the more favorable situation).

This is just incorrect. You're creating a leak, not fixing one. Catching a set or weird straight when someone has top pair is not all that rare (especially multi-way), so the implied odds are there.

Hand #11107890-6515 at Santa Fe (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 29/Jan/06 22:32:45

Mizz Kitty is at seat 0 with $4.55.
freechus is at seat 1 with $9.85.
DStyle4 is at seat 2 with $21.74.
fridgeman is at seat 3 with $4.15.
graydog is at seat 4 with $15.40.
DiamondDon1 is at seat 5 with $5.
ChuckBaker is at seat 6 with $8.10.
j0ber is at seat 7 with $5.65.
degeneratedan is at seat 8 with $4.85 (sitting out).
jander1012 is at seat 9 with $1.80.
The button is at seat 1.

DStyle4 posts the small blind of $.05.
fridgeman posts the big blind of $.10.

Mizz Kitty: -- --
freechus: 3c 3h
DStyle4: -- --
fridgeman: -- --
graydog: -- --
DiamondDon1: -- --
ChuckBaker: -- --
j0ber: -- --
jander1012: -- --

Pre-flop:

graydog folds. DiamondDon1 folds. ChuckBaker calls.
j0ber folds. jander1012 calls. Mizz Kitty calls.
freechus calls. DStyle4 calls. fridgeman checks.


Flop (board: 8c 3d Jh):

DStyle4 checks. fridgeman checks. ChuckBaker bets
$.60. jander1012 folds. Mizz Kitty folds.
freechus calls. DStyle4 folds. fridgeman folds.

Turn (board: 8c 3d Jh 9d):

ChuckBaker bets $1.80. freechus calls.

River (board: 8c 3d Jh 9d Kh):

ChuckBaker bets $5.40. freechus goes all-in for
$7.35. ChuckBaker goes all-in for $5.60. freechus
is returned $1.75 (uncalled).



Showdown:

freechus shows 3c 3h.
freechus has 3c 3h 3d Jh Kh: three threes.
ChuckBaker shows Kd Js.
ChuckBaker has Kd Js Jh 9d Kh: two pair, kings and jacks.


Hand #11107890-6515 Summary:

$.80 is raked from a pot of $16.60.
freechus wins $15.80 with three threes.
----------------------------------------------------

Hand #11535027-7836 at Cornelius (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 07/Feb/06 14:15:35

TeachGal is at seat 0 with $8.45.
king33 is at seat 1 with $6.60.
HakanG is at seat 2 with $6.97.
freechus is at seat 3 with $8.25.
DerRichter is at seat 4 with $16.65.
J P is at seat 5 with $33.90.
trishelle00 is at seat 6 with $4.80.
bmpolak is at seat 7 with $9.05.
ONE2WINN is at seat 8 with $3.01.
0001King is at seat 9 with $23.03.
The button is at seat 0.

king33 posts the small blind of $.05.
HakanG posts the big blind of $.10.

TeachGal: -- --
king33: -- --
HakanG: -- --
freechus: 2d 2s
DerRichter: -- --
J P: -- --
trishelle00: -- --
bmpolak: -- --
ONE2WINN: -- --
0001King: -- --

Pre-flop:

freechus calls. DerRichter folds. J P calls.
trishelle00 calls. bmpolak folds. ONE2WINN calls.
0001King folds. TeachGal folds. king33 calls.
HakanG checks.

Flop (board: 2c 9d 3c):

king33 checks. HakanG checks. freechus bets $.35.
J P calls. trishelle00 calls. ONE2WINN folds.
king33 folds. HakanG folds.

Turn (board: 2c 9d 3c 6h):

freechus bets $1. J P calls. trishelle00 folds.

River (board: 2c 9d 3c 6h 7d):

freechus bets $1.25. J P calls.



Showdown:

freechus shows 2d 2s.
freechus has 2d 2s 2c 9d 7d: three deuces.
J P mucks cards.
(J P has 9c 5c.)


Hand #11535027-7836 Summary:

$.30 is raked from a pot of $6.15.
freechus wins $5.85 with three deuces.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #11009562-12841 at Oppencott (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 30/Jan/06 22:11:30

metamorpho is at seat 0 with $5.
paviarocker is at seat 1 with $3.90.
bh11716 is at seat 2 with $22.31.
Mad Ukraine is at seat 3 with $3.55.
kimifan is at seat 4 with $10.20.
Alodi is at seat 5 with $12.13.
freechus is at seat 6 with $10.
DENWHAT is at seat 7 with $26.02.
Rick Celt is at seat 8 with $15.50.
wvcamel2002 is at seat 9 with $6.35.
The button is at seat 8.

wvcamel2002 posts the small blind of $.05.
metamorpho posts the big blind of $.10.

metamorpho: -- --
paviarocker: -- --
bh11716: -- --
Mad Ukraine: -- --
kimifan: -- --
Alodi: -- --
freechus: 8c 8d
DENWHAT: -- --
Rick Celt: -- --
wvcamel2002: -- --

Pre-flop:

paviarocker folds. bh11716 folds. Mad Ukraine
raises to $.20. kimifan folds. Alodi folds.
freechus calls. DENWHAT calls. Rick Celt folds.
wvcamel2002 calls. metamorpho calls.

Flop (board: Kc Ad 8s):

wvcamel2002 checks. metamorpho bets $.10. Mad
Ukraine calls. freechus raises to $1. DENWHAT
calls. wvcamel2002 calls. metamorpho calls. Mad
Ukraine folds.

Turn (board: Kc Ad 8s 5c):

wvcamel2002 checks. metamorpho checks. freechus
bets $3. DENWHAT raises to $14.10. wvcamel2002
folds. metamorpho goes all-in for $3.80. freechus
goes all-in for $8.80. DENWHAT is returned $5.30
(uncalled).

River (board: Kc Ad 8s 5c Ts):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

DENWHAT shows 7s As.
DENWHAT has As Kc Ad 8s Ts: a pair of aces.
metamorpho shows Ac 9s.
metamorpho has Ac 9s Kc Ad Ts: a pair of aces, king/ten kickers.
freechus shows 8c 8d.
freechus has 8c 8d Kc Ad 8s: three eights.


Hand #11009562-12841 Summary:

$1.30 is raked from a total pot of $26.50.
$.80 is raked from the main pot of $16.50.
$.50 is raked from side pot #1 of $10.
freechus wins the main pot $15.70 with three eights.
freechus wins the side pot $9.50 with three eights.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #11009382-14806 at Abdouramane (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 26/Jan/06 16:00:31

Barstool is at seat 0 with $.98.
jeepin guy is at seat 1 with $1.59.
freechus is at seat 2 with $3.58.
RuudBoy11 is at seat 3 with $4.70.
charity 42 is at seat 4 with $2.76.
marnie21 is at seat 5 with $.07.
JSF is at seat 6 with $.94.
jsticky03 is at seat 7 with $.13.
Omaha Lace is at seat 8 with $2.06.
amkaos is at seat 9 with $1.
The button is at seat 6.

jsticky03 posts the small blind of $.01.
Omaha Lace posts the big blind of $.02.

Barstool: -- --
jeepin guy: -- --
freechus: 5h 5s
RuudBoy11: -- --
charity 42: -- --
marnie21: -- --
JSF: -- --
jsticky03: -- --
Omaha Lace: -- --

Pre-flop:

Barstool folds. jeepin guy calls. freechus calls.
RuudBoy11 folds. charity 42 folds. marnie21 folds.
JSF folds. jsticky03 folds. Omaha Lace checks.

Flop (board: 5c Qs 2c):

Omaha Lace checks. jeepin guy bets $.25. freechus
raises to $.50. Omaha Lace folds. jeepin guy calls.


Turn (board: 5c Qs 2c 7d):

jeepin guy goes all-in for $1.07. freechus calls.

River (board: 5c Qs 2c 7d Jh):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

jeepin guy shows Th Qh.
jeepin guy has Th Qh Qs 7d Jh: a pair of queens.
freechus shows 5h 5s.
freechus has 5h 5s 5c Qs Jh: three fives.

Hand #11009486-12175 at Vizcaya (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 26/Jan/06 19:04:05

BadLee is at seat 0 with $.95.
freechus is at seat 1 with $1.98.
Sliverz is at seat 2 with $3.81.
TenthFret is at seat 3 with $2.25.
TKE-1127- is at seat 4 with $1.04.
BYZFAN2 is at seat 5 with $12.15.
stopit99 is at seat 6 with $1.91.
PBUZZ is at seat 7 with $1.89.
Sennekat is at seat 8 with $3.14.
feagles is at seat 9 with $2.07.
The button is at seat 7.

Sennekat posts the small blind of $.01.
feagles posts the big blind of $.02.

BadLee: -- --
freechus: 5c 5d
Sliverz: -- --
TenthFret: -- --
TKE-1127-: -- --
BYZFAN2: -- --
stopit99: -- --
PBUZZ: -- --
Sennekat: -- --
feagles: -- --

Pre-flop:

BadLee calls. freechus calls. Sliverz folds.
TenthFret folds. TKE-1127- folds. BYZFAN2 folds.
stopit99 folds. PBUZZ calls. Sennekat calls.
feagles checks.

Flop (board: 8c 5s Kc):

Sennekat bets $.02. feagles calls. BadLee raises to
$.18. freechus re-raises to $.34. PBUZZ folds.
Sennekat folds. feagles folds. BadLee calls.

Turn (board: 8c 5s Kc Qh):

BadLee goes all-in for $.59. freechus calls.

River (board: 8c 5s Kc Qh 7c):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

BadLee shows Kd Js.
BadLee has Kd Js 8c Kc Qh: a pair of kings.
freechus shows 5c 5d.
freechus has 5c 5d 5s Kc Qh: three fives.


Hand #11009486-12175 Summary:

$.10 is raked from a pot of $2.
freechus wins $1.90 with three fives.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #11534710-8380 at Boardman (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 06/Feb/06 23:50:06

george9972 is at seat 0 with $9.85.
osider is at seat 1 with $19.25.
grn6 is at seat 3 with $4.48.
Foxx_Good is at seat 4 with $2.88.
rik11phish is at seat 5 with $.79.
willie pep is at seat 6 with $9.20.
ldb85269 is at seat 7 with $12.45.
captainmill is at seat 8 with $9.75.
freechus is at seat 9 with $9.35.
The button is at seat 7.

captainmill posts the small blind of $.05.
freechus posts the big blind of $.10.
Foxx_Good posts out of turn for $.10.

george9972: -- --
osider: -- --
grn6: -- --
Foxx_Good: -- --
rik11phish: -- --
willie pep: -- --
ldb85269: -- --
captainmill: -- --
freechus: 5d 5s

Pre-flop:

george9972 folds. osider folds. grn6 folds.
Foxx_Good checks. rik11phish calls. willie pep
folds. ldb85269 calls. captainmill calls.
freechus checks.

Flop (board: 8h 4s 5c):

captainmill checks. freechus bets $.30. Foxx_Good
calls. rik11phish folds. ldb85269 folds.
captainmill folds.

Turn (board: 8h 4s 5c 4c):

freechus checks. Foxx_Good bets $.50. freechus
raises to $2.60. Foxx_Good goes all-in for $2.48.
freechus is returned $.12 (uncalled).

River (board: 8h 4s 5c 4c Ks):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

freechus shows 5d 5s.
freechus has 5d 5s 4s 5c 4c: full house, fives full of fours.
Foxx_Good shows 7d 6c.
Foxx_Good has 7d 6c 8h 4s 5c: straight, eight high.


Hand #11534710-8380 Summary:

$.30 is raked from a pot of $6.06.
freechus wins $5.76 with full house, fives full of fours.
----------------------------------------------------------------

The preceding post illustrates a very good argument, but I just don't know how much of this can be applied to 50nl stakes. People just aren't dumb enough to call off their whole stack to TPBK at this level. The only way I am getting paid off with set is if they have TPTK or two pair.

50 NL has different colored chips. That is all. Stop exercising bad poker labeling and play the player.

Originally Posted by Renton

The preceding post illustrates a very good argument, but I just don't know how much of this can be applied to 50nl stakes. People just aren't dumb enough to call off their whole stack to TPBK at this level. The only way I am getting paid off with set is if they have TPTK or two pair.

It's to my understanding that 2NL - 100NL is the same.

"I am going to have to go ahead and sort of... disagree with you there" -Bill Lumburgh

I have never played 2 or 5nl

but 10nl is radically different from 25nl and there are a few important differences between 25 and 50nl.

raising pps oop. leak
raising suited connectors, Axs oop. leak

good post flop play with sets flush draws and potential to bluff a missed draw. +ev

Originally Posted by freechus9

It's to my understanding that 2NL - 100NL is the same.

2NL is radically different to 10NL

The 10NL players are bad but you dont get anywhere near as many maniacs.

10NL players are more typical loose passive calling station fish whereas 2NL players are far more likely to reraise you with TPGK.

...in general

I was over generalizing when I said that. But I meant that in those limits, solid, tight play will win the money. Yea I agree that 100 NL is going to be much different than 2NL, but you can still play a tight game and win money if you know what you're doing. I'm saying you don't need to bluff and make moves all the time in order to win money..you just need to wait for good cards and c/r the shit out of fish..that's what I was saying. Sorry for the confusion.

If you raise PP since you're representing a monster anyways you're gonna get even less action than if you had limped.

By not raising you allow junk hands to stay in and hit their two pair which is definitely good against your set.

Sets play best multiway, not in small pots. Save those for your Group 1 hands.

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

By not raising you allow junk hands to stay in and hit their two pair...

or their straight....

or their flush....

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Iconoclastic

By not raising you allow junk hands to stay in and hit their two pair...

or their straight....

or their flush....

Those hands are much more obvious than a set, and relatively easier to get away from. Sets also have decent redraws, while two pair much less so.

Did he ever catch on?

haha i was reading this, and was wondering what the hell was going on, why is renton asking about PP's at 50 NL. nice bump.