Continuation Betting

Continuation betting.

Discuss.

Continuation betting QJhh on 8h42 > Continuation betting QJhh on 742(no heart)
Why?

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Continuation betting QJhh on 8h42 > Continuation betting QJhh on 742(no heart)
Why?

I'll take a stab. With the 8h42, if you get called your hand has a better chance of improving -- in addition to the overs, another heart could fall and improve your equity with a flush draw.

i'll take the fact that you deleted my post as an indication that you're intimidated by me

Cbetting is cool. Idk what to talk about further...

Um, how much better we talkin yaawn? The 8h gives us backdoor flush and straight draws so we dont need as much fold equity and id guess ppl have less 7s than 8s in their range but this only amounts to making it slightly better.

Um, we should cbet for value, or cbet as a bluff. Doing anything else is silly until our opponents are able to read ranges a little.

it is good to c-bet with a plan

Originally Posted by JKDS

Um, we should cbet for value, or cbet as a bluff. Doing anything else is silly until our opponents are able to read ranges a little.

I have three reasons for Cbetting and none of them are to find out where I am at.

One thing I've been working on lately is trying to analyze each opportunity to cbet as its own unique situation and to pick better spots rather than just auto betting. This means I'm trying to look at the board texture and at the type of opponent I'm up against and determine how much of his range connected with a flop and how hard it connected.

For example, if a fish balls your BU open from the big blind and the flop comes 98Tss I expect him to connect with this fairly well and therefore won't cbet too often as a bluff.

If a TAG calls my BU open from the big blind I expect much of his range to be pp's. If the flop is 822 rainbow I probably wouldn't cbet air because i expect him to call at least one bet with many of his pp's and he wouldn't expect me to connect that well with this flop.


I don't claim that any of this is correct reasoning, just things I've been thinking about.

Having someone who check/calls cbets with mid and small pocket pairs is money in the bank. Don't fire the flop unless you plan on firing the turn. This can change depending on the turn card obviously, but I don't ever just think of cbetting and shutting down. Either I shut down because of the flop or I am planing on two streets at least.

jyms I don't really understand what you're saying? Was your post just related to people who c/c with a pp?

Nobody has still given a good reason to c-bet the 8h42 flop in my example as opposed to the 742 flop.

Obviously you have a little more equity with backdoor draws but that isn't why it's "a tonne" better.

Hint: Sometimes we want to bet more then 1street when we c-bet

Actually everyone who said something about the hand was "right" but not didn't give enough reasons as to why they are right. You all were kind of close though.

Don't underestimate Backdoor draws, they are equivelent to another out, about 4% so 8% is huge when comparing one board to another. Having what could equate to two overs (6outs) and two backdoor draws (2 outs) is the almost the same as an OESD as far as equity depending on villains range.

kfaess, you said "If a TAG calls my BU open from the big blind I expect much of his range to be pp's. If the flop is 822 rainbow I probably wouldn't cbet air because i expect him to call at least one bet with many of his pp's and he wouldn't expect me to connect that well with this flop." Firing two small bets here is money in the bank vs floaters that call cbets to see what you do on the turn. It's also what makes that QJhh hand talked about such a great hand to 2 barrel. So many people fire one vs a tagg, and that's why they call cbets with obvious weak pairs.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Continuation betting QJhh on 8h42 > Continuation betting QJhh on 742(no heart)
Why?

Ok I thought the guys that answered this before me got it right but I guess not. On the 8h42 flop a T or 9 gives us a gutshot and any heart gives us a FD. If we put our opponent on a weak range then when we hit one of these cards we can double barrel because of the added equity we picked up??

Reason 1. More equity from bd draws.
Reason 2. 742 Hits multiple straight draws harder.
Reason 3. Given the first two we can cbet the turn more often as there are more cards that improve our hand than his hand on the 8h42 board and as such we also provide blockers for any hands that might be picking up draws as well

shrug. That's my thought

Originally Posted by kfaess

Ok I thought the guys that answered this before me got it right but I guess not. On the 8h42 flop a T or 9 gives us a gutshot and any heart gives us a FD. If we put our opponent on a weak range then when we hit one of these cards we can double barrel because of the added equity we picked up??

Almost, you can also double barrel a J/Q/K/A, J/Q obviously gives us top pair and very likely the best hand, K/A are good/scary barrel cards.

So in on the 8h42 board you're barreling 9/T/J/Q/K/A/hearts which is 4+4+3+3+4+4+7 = 29 cards

In the second example our only good barrel cards are A/K/Q/J/T which is 4+4+3+3+4 = 18 barrel cards

Although in the second example this is still a lot of barrel cards this barrel has to work a TONNE more then the first barrel since we're any of the cards we barrel in the first cards gives us 10 outs a lot of the time and in the 2nd example we're going to be drawing to a pair at best on A/K/T turns.

Originally Posted by jyms

Either I shut down because of the flop or I am planing on two streets at least.

Oh boy, let the spew begin for those who don't get this.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Almost, you can also double barrel a J/Q/K/A, J/Q obviously gives us top pair and very likely the best hand, K/A are good/scary barrel cards.

So in on the 8h42 board you're barreling 9/T/J/Q/K/A/hearts which is 4+4+3+3+4+4+7 = 29 cards

In the second example our only good barrel cards are A/K/Q/J/T which is 4+4+3+3+4 = 18 barrel cards

Although in the second example this is still a lot of barrel cards this barrel has to work a TONNE more then the first barrel since we're any of the cards we barrel in the first cards gives us 10 outs a lot of the time and in the 2nd example we're going to be drawing to a pair at best on A/K/T turns.

niiice. That is really helpful, thanks for throwing up the example. Question: how important is player type vs. board texture considerations like this? What I mean is that it seems to me that your opponent is more important than the board/your barreling options.

Now that I can analyze which boards give me more chances to barrel, I don't want to go play with this new knowledge only to spew on good barreling cards vs someone who is never ever folding.

Also in my example the flop obviously is slightly less connected so it is a little drier. I should have mentioned this in the last post.

Originally Posted by kfaess

niiice. That is really helpful, thanks for throwing up the example. Question: how important is player type vs. board texture considerations like this? What I mean is that it seems to me that your opponent is more important than the board/your barreling options.

Now that I can analyze which boards give me more chances to barrel, I don't want to go play with this new knowledge only to spew on good barreling cards vs someone who is never ever folding.

obviously player type is very important...people who will never fold are not good people to bluff cbet/2barrel but are probably great to cbet pp's and middle pairs for value against.

There are a lot of boards that do not even need to improve, like in your example with the tag in the blinds calling your btn raise, on a Q or J xx board they will probably call 1 street with their pp's but will fold if oyu throw out a 2/3-3/4 psb on the turn probably regardless of the card (assuming it doesnt help them )

Originally Posted by kfaess

niiice. That is really helpful, thanks for throwing up the example. Question: how important is player type vs. board texture considerations like this? What I mean is that it seems to me that your opponent is more important than the board/your barreling options.

Now that I can analyze which boards give me more chances to barrel, I don't want to go play with this new knowledge only to spew on good barreling cards vs someone who is never ever folding.

Well I think in the first example you should be continuation betting versus almost any opponent unless they are completely batshit insane and are raising all your continuation bets or are NEVER folding to continuation bets/2barrels or even 3barrels for that matter. People who never fold the flop but fold the turn quite a bit are good players to c-bet versus in this example.


In the second example you should probably be only c-betting versus very weak players who aren't ever floating with overs since it's going to be hard to find a good card for us to 2barrel and we'll be check/folding the turn quite a bit versus this type of player.





When analyzing boards to c-bet you should look at immediate FE versus your opponent(decide what his folding range is)/Board texture(helps define his folding/calling/raising range)/Potential 2barrel cards depending on how our hand/the board interacts/Our current equity versus his calling range. You should also be betting if you can make your opponent A) Fold better(As a bluff) or B) Call with worst(For value) or C) If it causes them to make a mistake (folding versus us when they have 10outs even though they have the correct odds to call but we're ahead at the moment)<-- This last one confuses me sometimes too but isn't nearly as important as the other 2.

I lost my train of thought like 10 times while writing this post so I'm sorry if it doesn't make complete sense.

CBetting principle #1: Just do it.

Name that quote.

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

CBetting principle #1: Just do it.

Name that quote.

ssnlhe

When I C bets .

In no particular order and it depends on

: villians tendancies and awareness
: table dynamics
: texture of flops
: other stuff.


times when I c bets

1) When an A or K flops ,I want to rep the A or K .

2) When say, the flop is 882 and I want to rep a high pocket pair



At a passive table usually Ill c bet like a manic ,on the button until i get played back at.
when I get played back at , ill c bets against that villian a little more cautiously.

Heres one almost good example-

Villian is 83/50 over 20 ish , he doesnt fold to c bets, did not seem positionally aware and is on medication due to flop addiction .

weaktight | Hand Poll | J2o - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem

In that example , Villian calling the C bet was a little worrying but thats another story.


Oh ive though of another tendancy I have.

If my C betting is on 100% and I have an aware villain who is playing back ,Ill sometimes neglect to c bets when I hit the flop to get my % down and try to induce a bluff , varyimg my c betting so its not predictable ,that is.

Originally Posted by celtic123

Villian is 83/50 over 20 ish , he doesnt fold to c bets, did not seem positionally aware and is on medication due to flop addiction .

weaktight | Hand Poll | J2o - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem

I dont get it.

Why are you opening J2o against a blind who is never folding preflop ever, and whom you have a read that he doesnt give up to cbets? Against someone who doesnt like to fold, you shouldnt be trying to bluff, and a hand like J2o is really only ever going to be for bluffing.

With this flop, cbetting seems kinda bad too especially if you thought him calling was worrying. If you dont think hes calling wide enough to be cbetting a pair of jacks with no kicker on a AJ6m flop then you realy shouldnt be doing it.

Originally Posted by kfaess

niiice. That is really helpful, thanks for throwing up the example. Question: how important is player type vs. board texture considerations like this? What I mean is that it seems to me that your opponent is more important than the board/your barreling options.

Now that I can analyze which boards give me more chances to barrel, I don't want to go play with this new knowledge only to spew on good barreling cards vs someone who is never ever folding.

btw, the whole "let's start a thread about cbetting thing" started with me saying i'm prolly gonna make a long one at some point, so i still might do that.

anyway, reads and player type obviously have a huge effect on ranges and how they're going to play their range, so that changes how we play our range. however, the whole "don't bluff fish" thing is a little overrated. it's great advice for players just starting out, but eventually you should learn to cash in on all those times that fish let pots get way bloated with their GSSD or their bottom pair or their overcards that just might hit, only to fold to a final barrel.

yaawn's 8h42 board is a great example, as you should pretty much cbet this board against anyone who doesn't raise cbets like a maniac or anything. against players who are super fit or fold, obv cbetting just about anything is printing money, and against players who don't often fold to cbets, you can bet the flop to keep the initiative and get him off his hand with our bajillion bluffing outs.

EDIT: had to step out so i posted that before i listed one more example

however, on a board like QhJh2c holding 76ss, you can fire one small barrel at a nit/predictable tagg because they're gonna have so many whiffed set mines in their range, but this is a terrible board to cbet against fish because there range has so much GSSD and pairs in it and you don't wanna get into a barrelling war without equity in this spot.

Originally Posted by JKDS

Why are you opening J2o against a blind who is never folding preflop ever, and whom you have a read that he doesnt give up to cbets?

Against someone who doesnt like to fold, you shouldnt be trying to bluff, and a hand like J2o is really only ever going to be for bluffing.

I didnt realise I was so far off the mark , for the record , here was my reasoning.

1) when the hand was folded to me I raised knowing the SB was a calling station and would call with practically anything , he looks at all flops .

2) I knew he would call my C bet , whatever he has. he wants to see more cards .


3) In line with the C betting discussion , I saw his tendency as a leak and I thought I was exploiting it and my example would illustrate a Continuation betting oppourtunity.

Originally Posted by JKDS

With this flop, cbetting seems kinda bad too especially if you thought him calling was worrying.

Perhaps I should have left out him calling worried me , but it did get my heart racing , natural instinct. I love the poker vibes.

Normally, I would table select and have a habitual folder to my left. but im trying to deal with different types of players whilst the stakes are still small.

I appreciate greatly your response and am re-thinking my reasoning.

Edit
Points well taken are.

Dont bluff a calling station.
I didnt mention " he calls wide enough" in my reads

Originally Posted by celtic123

1) when the hand was folded to me I raised knowing the SB was a calling station and would call with practically anything , he looks at all flops .

Pick your spots better. Against a calling station, you want fat value. J2o vs. top 80% of hands (according to poker stove) only has 40% equity preflop. Where is the value?

Originally Posted by NightGizmo

Pick your spots better. Against a calling station, you want fat value. J2o vs. top 80% of hands (according to poker stove) only has 40% equity preflop. Where is the value?

Yes. small value indeed. I can only apologize for such a bad example of C betting . Ill try and come across another and bring the thread back on track.

Definition from FTR: After raising and taking control of the pot pre-flop, Most players use a continuation bet on the flop regardless of their cards because their opponent only has a chance of about 1/3 of hitting a pair on the flop if they have unpaired cards.

Example: The continuation bet was made after the preflop raiser was checked to on the flop. Usually the c-bet has a decent success rate.

Originally Posted by NightGizmo

Pick your spots better. Against a calling station, you want fat value. J2o vs. top 80% of hands (according to poker stove) only has 40% equity preflop. Where is the value?

The value is in the fact that our opponent sucks and we have position and preflop equity isn't going to be as important since we have initiative + position. That said, opening J2o is probably a bit too loose until you developed some reads or at least have realized he's calling and playing fit or fold postflop. Also don't just start opening any trash hand versus bad opponents because we have position and initiative!

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

The value is in the fact that our opponent sucks and we have position and preflop equity isn't going to be as important since we have initiative + position. That said, opening J2o is probably a bit too loose until you developed some reads or at least have realized he's calling and playing fit or fold postflop. Also don't just start opening any trash hand versus bad opponents because we have position and initiative!

You have no fold equity against a calling station, so cbetting as a bluff is pointless. Since you can't bluff to win the pot, you have to win through value. How often are you planning on betting J2o for value on the flop? What % of flops are actually good for your hand, where your bet expects to be called by more worse hands than better? Your preflop equity is a good indicator of how your hand will play against someone that can't find the fold button.

Bringing us back to the original topic, this shows that we can consider two extremes for cbetting:
1) Your opponent is a calling station. Never cbet bluff, because you have no fold equity. But cbetting for value can be highly profitable when you have a good hand.
2) Your opponent plays fit-or-fold. You should cbet the vast majority of the time because fold equity alone make this +EV. And the times you actually have a hand and they call, you have a better chance of stacking them.

Did you even read my entire post?

Anyone else think yAAwn is just trying to be the 1mirrionth post?

Obviously that's my ploy :P Just a coincidence imo

Yaawn, yalp.

I did read your post but i still cant see why we'd want to raise J2o here. Is it just because we cant believe that villain never folds post and even so, if he did we would be fine anyway?

Like

If villain never folds then
-) we have implied odds to hit an awesome flop and will stack him every time
-) we can value bet Jx even without a kicker when we hit

and

If villain doesnt always not fold then
-) we can own him using our initiative position powers to double/triple barrel him or choose bet sizes and board textures where hes less likely to continue to own his soul

Cuz if thats true, then really it doesnt matter who the fuck is in the blinds because stealing from nits is easy and stealing from super calling stations is easy and maniacs and everything regardless of our range?

Idk, that seems unclear.

No I said in my post J2o is probably a bit too loose but I would definately open J2s(obviously) and almost certainly open J6o+. If he's a TOTAL station post you want to play as many pots in position as you possibly can since he's probably passive and will give us lots of free cards and whenever we make a pair/2pair/trips we can value town the shit out of him. Trying to play lots of pots with bad players is something you should always be aiming for, there's no reason not to.

But enough about that the thread is completely derailed but if you want to start a new thread on "Why we want to play lots of pots with bad players" go ahead.

In what instances do we not C-bet in order to maximize value when our hand is strong? Give examples if necessary.

Originally Posted by Outlaw

In what instances do we not C-bet in order to maximize value when our hand is strong? Give examples if necessary.

When villain has a high fold to cbet% and we have a good hand on a dry board. So a 18/8 villain limp/calls from MP with his range being mostly sm-mid PPs. We isolate with AJ from the BU and flop is A72.

If we bet, villain folds almost 100% of the time unless he holds 77 or 22. We check behind, turn is a 2. Not very often does he have 77 and almost never does he have 22. Villain then leads into us for 3/4 pot trying to take it down with his smaller pair - assuming we have missed broadways. By checking behind on the flop, we get value from villain that he wouldn't have given us had we cbet the flop.

Amirite?

Originally Posted by donkfish

When villain has a high fold to cbet% and we have a good hand on a dry board. So a 18/8 villain limp/calls from MP with his range being mostly sm-mid PPs. We isolate with AJ from the BU and flop is A72.

If we bet, villain folds almost 100% of the time unless he holds 77 or 22. We check behind, turn is a 2. Not very often does he have 77 and almost never does he have 22. Villain then leads into us for 3/4 pot trying to take it down with his smaller pair - assuming we have missed broadways. By checking behind on the flop, we get value from villain that he wouldn't have given us had we cbet the flop.

Amirite?

Are you raising the turn bet or calling?
Are you going to bet for value on a blank river?

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

Are you raising the turn bet or calling?
Are you going to bet for value on a blank river?

If he'll call a raise, then raise. If he snap folds almost always but will bet again on the river if we just call, then calling the turn/raising the river is an option. I'm guessing this is super read and villain dependent though.

Good ideas Donkfish. Underepping our hand to get value on later streets from hands that can't stand flop action is a good example.

Another time is if villain is super agro and spewy when he senses weakness. C/C C/C C/Shove has its merits on the right boards.

Of course for balancing and meta game reasons we might check a strong hand to maximize.. but below 100NL this probably is a bad idea.

cause damn near everyone in my db has a fold to c-bet percentage of 70%+. Pretty much the only ones who don't are the short stackers.

Originally Posted by littleogre

cause damn near everyone in my db has a fold to c-bet percentage of 70%+. Pretty much the only ones who don't are the short stackers.