Concept: Implied threat

For melinda27 and Ash256: This thread is almost 8 months old.

You should read the rest of the thread - it won't let you down.

The original post is a theoretical hand, which is used to illustrate an important concept of applying pressure on your opponent, etc. Like I said, read the entire thread, and also the doubleas blog link, to get the full experience.

Originally Posted by melinda27

and his fondness for playing for stacks

Originally Posted by fnord

TAggy is playing for stacks, Fnord is not. Discuss.

It isn't that the villian is fond of, or tends to play for stacks, it is the fact that he is facing a difficult decision. If he decides to continue in the hand, it is implied that he will have to risk his entire stack to showdown. Fnord only had to risk 1/3 of his stack, to effectively put the villian all-in.


This leads me to my next question:
Is the threat of this play lost if hero is out of position? Is villian more likely to call since he can see how we act on the turn?

Originally Posted by fnord

So far we've gone forward with the assumption our TAgg feels he's playing for stacks if he continues with his hand. However, many weaker and some not so weak players will often just call the raise, check/fold the turn, but attack any weakness. Or just check/call it all the way. Really weak players will often call the flop bet (in for a penny, in for a pound) then get second thoughts once the turn hits.

Against a call, how often should be follow through on the turn?

This is where I get into huge trouble. The tendency is for my opponents to check/calldown with weak hands (i guess they think they are committed). Does anyone have any suggestions here? Give up more often than not?

I put Fnord on 88 or 99.

Thats how I'd play those cards from the button.

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I put Fnord on 88 or 99.

Thats how I'd play those cards from the button.

you're missing the entire point of the thread.

Great thread!

Heroes around the world should be fairly certain that the villain isn't a calling station when utilizing this concept though (when holding non-showdown hands, of course).

Originally Posted by melinda27

Originally Posted by Fnord

NLHE $0.5/$1 blinds, $70 effective stacks.

Kinda TAggy player who tries to play well opens from MP for $4.
Fnord calls from the button.
Blinds fold.

$8ish in the pot

Flop is:


TAggy bets $6, Fnord raises to $18.

TAggy is playing for stacks, Fnord is not. Discuss.

Preflop: OOP TAG i put him on AJs+, PP maybe 55+ AQ and AK on the offsuit side. Call from the button is almost anything, suited connectors, pocket pairs, 2 big suited cards QJ+

Flop, 3/4 pot, a bit too big for me to be a compete C-Bet, so I'm thinking he has something. 77 and 44 are possibilities with my preflop assumptions, AA i think he'd make a smaller bet maybe 1/2 pot to make it look like a C-Bet, i like to know his read on you a little first but i'm assuming he's seen you show good aggression. If he comes over the top here I make him for a 77/44 set pushing all in, a smooth call leans me more towards AA. I think his big aces might have led to a bigger bet on the flop to take it down right there with this draw heavy board. I'm sure he knows that 56 is definetly in your range as well as a lot of hands holding spades. I dont know how you'd play this with complete air, i see the raise at least being a semi-bluff. Air i'd probably take a call/Pop a scare card on the turn, and see how he plays the turn with the ace out there. I dont see you having a set here because with his 6 dollar bet and his fondness for playing for stacks a mini raise puts you in a good position to get him all in by the river with a big hand. AKo/AQo with the K or Q of spades feels good here so does KQ of spades as well as 56 of spades or any other suit. Mostly likely i'd have to put you on
10% air, 25% 88-JJ, 20%A big spade, 20%2 big spades, 10% 56, 15% Set
I'd like to see his option to make a better estimate of what he has here.

the cards each player holds are totally insignificant. Look beyond the cards at how position affects action and what that action determines.
Fnord is not playing for stacks is the key to this.

On another note, the thinking behind this post provides a lot of the reasons why i dont auto c-bet after a preflop raise in medium stakes games whether i hit the fop or not. The flop is not a big money street, the turn is and playing that card in a certain way allows me to take down a larger number of pots uncontested and also gives players the oppertunity to put money in with a lot of second best hands.
But that isnt to say i dont c-bet, my % c-betting is just much lower now.

This is where I get into huge trouble. The tendency is for my opponents to check/calldown with weak hands (i guess they think they are committed). Does anyone have any suggestions here? Give up more often than not?

Put your opponents on cards. Give free cards when the card that might fall makes no difference to their hand in relation to yours (i.e set on a draw heavy board versus a taggy player). Stop raising the wrong players who cant fold AJ but will pay off a better kicker when you do raise.

Originally Posted by Fnord

NLHE $0.5/$1 blinds, $70 effective stacks.

Kinda TAggy player who tries to play well opens from MP for $4.
Fnord calls from the button.
Blinds fold.

$8ish in the pot

Flop is:


TAggy bets $6, Fnord raises to $18.

TAggy is playing for stacks, Fnord is not. Discuss.

With how the games generally play, Fnord could profitably raise so many hands here against your average 'taggy'. This includes big aces, sets, and any draw including gutshots, bottom/mid pairs, flush draws, 8 out straight draws, etc etc etc.

Calling your average low/mid-stakes tagg raises in position and raising their auto-flop bet = free money. You're welcome.

I have no idea what I had written previously in this thread nor do I really care. I think it was back when I was a full ring nit where I'd raise 44, 77, and 5s 6s here but not much else.

You forgot 2 Waffles.

I like that hand, I don't stack off with it very often.

Fnord raises to $18, TAGgy smoothcalls.

Turn is a blank

Fnord still isnt playing for stacks and ... check/folds?

Originally Posted by Fnord

You forgot 2 Waffles.

I like that hand, I don't stack off with it very often.

Last night I was kinda bored and finally opened sklansky's new no limit book. He recommends often checking the flop (both with made and unmade hands) out of position after raising preflop. It actually makes a good deal of sense. I certainly don't want to give up the true agression in my game, but it would make sense to slow down in these spots a lot, both in an out of position on the flop. Players that call too much here are easy to throw around on 4th street with a large second barrell, but ones that often raise the flop are really a bitch to play against. They irritate me to no end.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Fnord

You forgot 2 Waffles.

I like that hand, I don't stack off with it very often.

Last night I was kinda bored and finally opened sklansky's new no limit book. He recommends often checking the flop (both with made and unmade hands) out of position after raising preflop. It actually makes a good deal of sense. I certainly don't want to give up the true agression in my game, but it would make sense to slow down in these spots a lot, both in an out of position on the flop. Players that call too much here are easy to throw around on 4th street with a large second barrell, but ones that often raise the flop are really a bitch to play against. They irritate me to no end.

I've been doing this, and it's definitely good. I'm never checking middle or bottom set though. Mostly TPGK for made hands because I want to control pot size and induce bluffs since their value is so marginal. If you do it once in a while, and pick off a double or triple barrel bluff, your opponents will definitely respect you a lot more and you can get free cards with missed overs when you don't decide to cbet.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Fnord

You forgot 2 Waffles.

I like that hand, I don't stack off with it very often.

Last night I was kinda bored and finally opened sklansky's new no limit book. He recommends often checking the flop (both with made and unmade hands) out of position after raising preflop. It actually makes a good deal of sense. I certainly don't want to give up the true agression in my game, but it would make sense to slow down in these spots a lot, both in an out of position on the flop. Players that call too much here are easy to throw around on 4th street with a large second barrell, but ones that often raise the flop are really a bitch to play against. They irritate me to no end.

Possibly ironic, i havent read sklansky's new book, but one of the things i got from a lot of your HH posts when i sucked at 100nl, which you mention here as being in sklansky's book (the latest one with 44 all in on the river versus bdawg56k(?) is a greatexample) is that as a really tAGGy player like yourself doesnt check enough but rather bet-bet-bets all streets (almost always for value) which leaves you open to being commited to a lot of river cards no matter what you have. This leaves you exploitable (IMO mind you) to players super slow playing big hands, particularly preflop because youre going to do all the betting for them. Hence, playing ultra tight and not giving away hand strength preflop will trap you an awful lot.
Thats why i loved the AQ hand you posted because if you push that every so often but also c/c or check behind a few times whether you hit or not and than play a big turn for your stack you'll become so much more dangerous as a good TAGG imo who is really tough to put on cards. fwiw, id have been happy playing your game watching that guy call with 77(?) because its a f**king awful call playing against you.
Maybe im talking crap, but when i see your HH's i just wish sometimes you'd check every so often and induce so much more action from bad players who havent a clue how you play or just underestimate the way you play.

Fucking gold. Where have posts like this gone?

I suggest reading this entire thread. It really isn't that long. It is quite possibly one of the best threads I've read on FTR. It encompasses so much that is poker...position, cbets, ranges, position, stack sizes, Shania, and so much more.