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  1. #1
    bigred's Avatar
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    Default Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

    {Comments on http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4971}

    Good post `rilla. I'd just like to emphasize the fact that you should be comfortable having losses within the realm of your game. The number of BB's and buyin ratios can be a general guideline. However, I think that the real importance is that if you get cleaned out 3 games in a row (bad playing, beats, whatever) you're not going to lose sleep over it. That's the importance of BR management and you will not find a more important skill.
    LOL OPERATIONS
  2. #2
    Sed's Avatar
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    Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
    I understand the 10-20 buyin for nl ring games and the 10-15 buyin for SnG and the MTT 30x+ idea. But what if you want to play all of these?

    If I want to play 25$ NL, 20$ SnG and 10$ MTTs do I need a $750-1100 BR or Is it just the idea that you limit your buyin for any game to the appropriate percentage of your stack. IE to play a NL table don't join unless 5-10% of your stack is greater than the max buyin. So really one could comfortably play all these with a 400$ BR?

    no eating my banana -rilla!

    - sed
  3. #3
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    You can have 300 BB for limit and have that be the same exact bankroll for NL and for your MTT experience. Like you said, just don't risk more than 10% of your bankroll on any given day.

    -'rilla
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  4. #4
    |~|ypermegachi's Avatar
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    just to be conservative, it wouldn't hurt to recommend 5% risk for the beginner.
  5. #5
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Done!

    -'rilla
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  6. #6
    lolzzz_321's Avatar
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  7. #7
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I would also like to note. Toastee and some other short handed limit players were discussing the horribly fun swings of 6max limit. Toastee considered boosting the BR to 500BB noting that 100BB swings might not be too uncommon. I was merely an observer.

    -'rilla
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  8. #8
    Cocco_Bill's Avatar
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    Is a 340BB swing uncommon? After making 1300$ in the last week of play winning 7 consecutive days i now lost 340$ in 4 hours of play.

    I got 3xAA, KK, QQ all cracked in big pots among other very unfortunate hands. Its like as today the only thing i can get is trap hands.
  9. #9
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    *spits water on computer screen*

    *sips and rereads*

    *spits water on computer screen*

    I sincerly hope not.

    -'rilla
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  10. #10
    Waggho's Avatar
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    You can find the accurate numbers for a proper bankroll all over this great forum of ours. But I like 12-15 buyins for No Limit (Maybe even 20 for 6max), 300BB for limit and 20-30 buyins for tournies.
    Buy-in = max buy-in?
    That would mean that on the 0-05-0.10 tables I play, I would be comfortable with a bankroll of $120-$150.
    My bankroll is now ~$75. For how long do you think I should play these tables before I can move up? 15 x $20 for the 0.10-0.20 tables would mean a BR of $300. So, should I win $225 more before I can feel comfortable moving up to those tables? Feels like it´s gonna take a while...
  11. #11
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    You'll thank me after you experience your first big downswing. You can easily drop your entire bankroll in one week of bad play, tilt and bad cards. Also when 1 buyin is 1/7th your whole bankroll, it may be a mental block between you and making the right move. NL is a game about putting your opponent to tough decisions, you're not making it any easier on yourself by raising the stakes and having it represent a larger portion of your bankroll.

    -'rilla
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  12. #12
    Cocco_Bill's Avatar
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    Well, I just managed to lose 550$ or 11 buy ins in one day! I don't feel I made many mistakes either.
  13. #13
    Cocco_Bill's Avatar
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    CARDSON

    Last hand of the day against a 'maniac' player pretty much sums it up.

    ***** Hand History for Game 1332574897 *****
    djlew1969 has left the table.
    0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Wed Dec 22 02:06:48 EST 2004
    Table Cool Club (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
    Total number of players : 9
    Seat 1: TheGuavaJuic ( $19.9)
    Seat 2: Anthony71 ( $54.47)
    Seat 4: Hfeldstein ( $218.93)
    Seat 5: sean204 ( $49)
    Seat 6: Boonaru ( $49.5)
    Seat 7: bellacosta ( $48.45)
    Seat 8: twoskinneejs ( $56.05)
    Seat 9: momomoshi ( $61.2)
    Seat 10: DirtyLo ( $124.91)
    sean204 posts small blind (0.5)
    Boonaru posts big blind (1)
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to Boonaru [ Ac, 8c ]
    bellacosta folds.
    twoskinneejs folds.
    momomoshi folds.
    Anthony71 calls (1)
    Hfeldstein raises (4) to 4
    sean204 folds.
    Boonaru calls (3)
    Anthony71 calls (3)
    ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3c, 8s, 6c ]
    Boonaru bets (6)
    Anthony71 folds.
    Hfeldstein raises (12) to 12
    Boonaru calls (6)
    ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2s ]
    Boonaru checks.
    Hfeldstein bets (15)
    Boonaru calls (15)
    ** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
    Boonaru checks.
    Hfeldstein bets (18.5)
    Boonaru calls (18.5)
    Boonaru is all-In.
    Creating Main Pot with $100.5 with Boonaru
    ** Summary **
    Main Pot: $100.5 | | Rake: $3
    Board: [ 3c 8s 6c 2s 6s ]
    TheGuavaJuic balance $19.9, sits out
    Anthony71 balance $50.47, lost $4 (folded)
    Hfeldstein balance $269.93, bet $49.5, collected $100.5, net +$51 [ 6h 4h ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- 8s,6h,6c,6s,4h ]
    sean204 balance $48.5, lost $0.5 (folded)
    Boonaru balance $0, lost $49.5 [ Ac 8c ] [ two pairs, eights and sixes -- Ac,8c,8s,6c,6s ]
    bellacosta balance $48.45, didn't bet (folded)
    twoskinneejs balance $56.05, didn't bet (folded)
    momomoshi balance $61.2, didn't bet (folded)
    DirtyLo balance $124.91, sits out
  14. #14
    Cocco_Bill's Avatar
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    I kinda feel that it does not matter what hand I have or how I play it. The end result is always the same, I lose the hand if the pot is big.

    I lost 3 all ins with AA and won 0. I flopped a set 4 times, won 2 small pots, lost an all in to a flopped straight from the blinds and one with set of kings to a river flush.

    I had QQ twice against KK on a board with no overcards.

    I won a grand total of one big pot!
  15. #15
    Rilla but lets take me as an example for SNG's, my BR is 130 and I play 3+.30 SNG's, if i fail to place 3 times then im already using over 8% of my BR, so wouldnt tha be breaking the rules?, I just think that loosing 3 SNG's in one day is nothing IMO, so couldnt I risk lets say 11% in a day? or would that just be way over the top?...


    -anto
    <dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.
  16. #16
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    The idea of the 5% was to make sure that people knew how little they should be gambling with each day. The idea was keep it low and safe, the number might not be accurate (seeing how I completely pulled it out of this here ass of mine) but the lesson is there. Just don't go too far. I may go back an edit it up to 10%.

    -'rilla
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  17. #17
    Waggho's Avatar
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    You can find the accurate numbers for a proper bankroll all over this great forum of ours. But I like 12-15 buyins for No Limit (Maybe even 20 for 6max),
    Was thinking of this again. I usually take a quarter of the max buy-in to the table. That is $2.5 at the $10 max tables, and I do this to keep the variance low. My bankroll is now a little less than $100, so, even if I lose my whole buy-in 20 times in a row, thats just half my roll.

    My question is this: What numbers should I count with in my case? Should I still try to have a bankroll at 12-15 max buy-ins or can I count lower?

    Thankful for answers,
    W.
  18. #18
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I don't advise buying in with a quarter of the max. You become a push-over to anyone willing to push. You don't have enough money to make camping worthwhile and you definitly don't have enough cash to make any sort of bluff work.

    -'rilla
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  19. #19
    AvatarKava's Avatar
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    If you're buying it at less than the max, the primary thing you're doing is limiting your winnings on hands - the protection against losing a lot of money in one hand doesn't justify coming in shorthanded if you think you're a winning player. Also, because you're limiting your winnings, you're really not doing anything to variance (cutting away from both sides).

    As rilla says above, you also take away any advantage you might have whatsoever in terms of stack leverage (your ability to make people fold because you have a lot left in your stack that they don't want to risk playing against).

    If you're finding that you lose your entire stack often on big hands, you might be wise to move down a level or seriously analyze your game and work on getting out of hands (even the big ones) when you're likely beat.
  20. #20
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    First: The reason I do this is because I am already at the lowest limits and my bankroll is not yet 12-15 buy-ins. And since I´m winning, I don´t see a reason to move down in levels by changing poker room or something like that.

    the primary thing you're doing is limiting your winnings on hands - the protection against losing a lot of money in one hand doesn't justify coming in shorthanded if you think you're a winning player.
    Why would I cut down just the winnings and not the losses? This is what happens:
    a) If I have the best hand and I know it: I win less, because I don´t have anough money to put in.
    b) If I have the best hand and think I have the best hand: There is no problem for me going all-in, because I only have put 1/40 of my stack to the table. At max buy-in, I would have put in 1/10 of the stack and I would probably be scared to push all-in with a hand I´m not sure of.
    c) If I don´t have the best hand but think I have: If I´m forced to go all-in, I lose less than I would do with the max-buyin.

    a): -
    b): +
    c): +


    Also, because you're limiting your winnings, you're really not doing anything to variance (cutting away from both sides).
    If I´m not totally disinformed (does that word exist? ), variance means the curve of ups and downs.

    up up up up up down down down down down down up up up up up up up up down down down


    If I could change that curve to something like this:

    up up down up up down down up up down up up down down



    then I´m doing something about my variance. My $100 bankroll is slowly moving upwards and the swings are smaller.


    As rilla says above, you also take away any advantage you might have whatsoever in terms of stack leverage (your ability to make people fold because you have a lot left in your stack that they don't want to risk playing against).
    Correct, but instead I can make a call when a big stack bets hard and I think I have the best hand. I am less scared of big bets than I would be if I had a larger stack. If someone with a big stack thinks he can make me fold because I don´t want to risk my small amount of money, then I have the advantage.

    You become a push-over to anyone willing to push.
    If there is a lot of pushers, I just change table. I think that is a minor problem. If someone pushes and I have AA, then they are welcome! But if I would buy in with 1/10 of my BR, I would be more likely to fold in that situation.

    I believe that max buy-in is the best choice in general. But given the fact that my bankroll is little I think my way is smarter.
  21. #21
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    If you're doing it from a soley BR building persepctive, that's fine. You might wanna look into bonus whoring for a little help. I just think sitting down with a quarter stack won't help your game at all. The only way I learn is through experience and difficult decisions. You're taking the difficult right out of the decision (apparently). It sounds a lot like limit from a theoretical standpoint.

    As for your original BR question. 10 max buyin should be more than enough if you want to continue to make your decisions very small with respect to your BR.

    -'rilla
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  22. #22
    |~|ypermegachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waggho
    a) If I have the best hand and I know it: I win less, because I don´t have anough money to put in.
    b) If I have the best hand and think I have the best hand: There is no problem for me going all-in, because I only have put 1/40 of my stack to the table. At max buy-in, I would have put in 1/10 of the stack and I would probably be scared to push all-in with a hand I´m not sure of.
    c) If I don´t have the best hand but think I have: If I´m forced to go all-in, I lose less than I would do with the max-buyin.
    a) why would you wanna win less when you know you have the best of it?

    b) if you're scared to push you should be playing at a lower max buyin.

    c) play at a lower buyin then.
  23. #23
    Waggho's Avatar
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    If you're doing it from a soley BR building persepctive, that's fine. You might wanna look into bonus whoring for a little help. I just think sitting down with a quarter stack won't help your game at all. The only way I learn is through experience and difficult decisions. You're taking the difficult right out of the decision (apparently). It sounds a lot like limit from a theoretical standpoint.


    -'rilla
    "The only way I learn is through experience and difficult decisions."

    This was a very good advice, 'rilla. I had not thought about it that way. I am now playing max buy-in as I have >10 buyins and growing.
  24. #24
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    Poker is not a lot different from trading futures or options and there are plenty of excellent books giving good money management rules that would be pertinent to poker as well.

    Poker is gambling but it should be in the context of taking risks with skill or becomming highly skilled risk takers. You will not be around very long if you are under capitalized. 90+% of all new small businesses fails in the first two years for this reason alone.

    Another very important aspect is dollar cost averaging your bank roll. IE how much of a SET AMOUNT am I putting into the fund from outside sources on a PRESET DAY EACH MONTH ? After all, you should be looking at this like an investment. It IS going to cost you to learn and you WILL experience recessions. Sometimes you will be making a deposit on hot streaks; sometimes on cold ones; sometimes on dead even. But overall you should be meeting your previously defined expectation of return or finding out why not.

    In futures trading if you EVER are down more than 50% of your bank roll, you STOP playing altogether until you can define the problem, make the necessary adjustments, THEN AND ONLY THEN continue to play; if need be wait until your outside infusions of money catch you back up.

    First and foremost is to have a WELL DEFINED set of rules BEFORE you begin play and NEVER, EVER, FOR ANY REASON break them. History is repleat with the carcasses of many a risk taker that chose to either not have rules or break their rules and to their ultimate, inevitable and certain demise.
    Education is what is left when you have forgotten everything you learned in school
  25. #25
    AvatarKava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waggho
    Why would I cut down just the winnings and not the losses? This is what happens:
    a) If I have the best hand and I know it: I win less, because I don´t have anough money to put in.
    b) If I have the best hand and think I have the best hand: There is no problem for me going all-in, because I only have put 1/40 of my stack to the table. At max buy-in, I would have put in 1/10 of the stack and I would probably be scared to push all-in with a hand I´m not sure of.
    c) If I don´t have the best hand but think I have: If I´m forced to go all-in, I lose less than I would do with the max-buyin.
    You may limit losses if you're playing weak poker. The way you put this is as if a/b/c are all equally balanced. In fact, if you consider yourself a strong poker player, b & c should be far less frequent.


    If I´m not totally disinformed (does that word exist? ), variance means the curve of ups and downs.

    up up up up up down down down down down down up up up up up up up up down down down


    If I could change that curve to something like this:

    up up down up up down down up up down up up down down



    then I´m doing something about my variance. My $100 bankroll is slowly moving upwards and the swings are smaller.
    I'd debate that the swings aren't smaller, though - with your short stack, does it make you more inclined to call with a mediocre hand or more likely to (incorrectly) shove all your chips in? If it changes the style of play to something that is too passive or too aggressive, you're actually increasing your variance.

    Correct, but instead I can make a call when a big stack bets hard and I think I have the best hand. I am less scared of big bets than I would be if I had a larger stack. If someone with a big stack thinks he can make me fold because I don´t want to risk my small amount of money, then I have the advantage.
    Shouldn't you be calling regardless of stack size when you think you have the best hand? Does being less scared cause you to lose more pots because you're not afraid to lose $7? I'm not saying this is the case, but it's something to consider.
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
    CARDSON

    Last hand of the day against a 'maniac' player pretty much sums it up.

    ***** Hand History for Game 1332574897 *****
    djlew1969 has left the table.
    0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Wed Dec 22 02:06:48 EST 2004
    Table Cool Club (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
    Total number of players : 9
    Seat 1: TheGuavaJuic ( $19.9)
    Seat 2: Anthony71 ( $54.47)
    Seat 4: Hfeldstein ( $218.93)
    Seat 5: sean204 ( $49)
    Seat 6: Boonaru ( $49.5)
    Seat 7: bellacosta ( $48.45)
    Seat 8: twoskinneejs ( $56.05)
    Seat 9: momomoshi ( $61.2)
    Seat 10: DirtyLo ( $124.91)
    sean204 posts small blind (0.5)
    Boonaru posts big blind (1)
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to Boonaru [ Ac, 8c ]
    bellacosta folds.
    twoskinneejs folds.
    momomoshi folds.
    Anthony71 calls (1)
    Hfeldstein raises (4) to 4
    sean204 folds.
    Boonaru calls (3)
    Anthony71 calls (3)
    ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3c, 8s, 6c ]
    Boonaru bets (6)
    Anthony71 folds.
    Hfeldstein raises (12) to 12
    Boonaru calls (6)
    ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2s ]
    Boonaru checks.
    Hfeldstein bets (15)
    Boonaru calls (15)
    ** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
    Boonaru checks.
    Hfeldstein bets (18.5)
    Boonaru calls (18.5)
    Boonaru is all-In.
    Creating Main Pot with $100.5 with Boonaru
    ** Summary **
    Main Pot: $100.5 | | Rake: $3
    Board: [ 3c 8s 6c 2s 6s ]
    TheGuavaJuic balance $19.9, sits out
    Anthony71 balance $50.47, lost $4 (folded)
    Hfeldstein balance $269.93, bet $49.5, collected $100.5, net +$51 [ 6h 4h ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- 8s,6h,6c,6s,4h ]
    sean204 balance $48.5, lost $0.5 (folded)
    Boonaru balance $0, lost $49.5 [ Ac 8c ] [ two pairs, eights and sixes -- Ac,8c,8s,6c,6s ]
    bellacosta balance $48.45, didn't bet (folded)
    twoskinneejs balance $56.05, didn't bet (folded)
    momomoshi balance $61.2, didn't bet (folded)
    DirtyLo balance $124.91, sits out
    That flop reraise from him seems like he thinks you might be trying to buy a raggy flop, I would seriously considering reraising him or maybe putting all your chips in the middle, because honestly his min raise just seems weak as hell. If someone flops 2 pair or a set with that flop you will probably end up paying them off anyway. If they have an 8 they have a worse kicker so you'll want all your money in and let the cards fall. And if they have mid/bottom pair it prevents them from sucking you out.
  27. #27

    Default yet another example....

    Recently had a great rush on nickel tables, five dollars to 200 in 2 days. Moved up to .25/.50 NL tables, another week I was at six hun.
    Moved up to .50/1.00.....
    I like to buy in with half the max buy in at my site, max being 100, so 50 is my buy in.
    Played tight as Hell.
    Hit AA, all in, busted by flush, down to 550
    The very next all in, hit ace high flush on flop, all in, opponent hit straight flush., down to 500.
    Buy in, play like a rock...(feeling a bit tilty, tighten way up). Hit aa, bet big before flop, like ten bucks or something. flop comes a44, i flop full house, all in. Opponent calls with four of a kind fours. Down to 450.
    Buy in, play rockier than Rocky, hit ace high flush on flop, no pairs, no straight flush, all in, opponent calls, catches the full.
    Down to 400.
    Similar occurences on the next 3 all ins. I had the best possible hand each time, lost 7 consecutive all ins in the space of a day, for a total loss of 350 despite playing the best possible game. I am back to .10/.20 NL, and I won't be moving up to .25/.50 until I am well over 500. I nearly quit poker.
  28. #28
    johnnyawe's Avatar
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    toons, thats horrible.
  29. #29
    Great post 'Rilla. Bankroll is the one area of my game that I just don't pay enough attention to.
    -It seemed like a good idea at the time-
  30. #30
    Just felt compelled to address a couple points here.

    Quote Originally Posted by astrodon
    Another very important aspect is dollar cost averaging your bank roll.
    Dollar cost averaging is a concept that applies to the accumulation and distribution of "variable priced assets" (prime examples are stocks and mutual funds) Your bankroll is not a variable priced asset. We play poker for money, and a dollar is the same today, tomorrow, next week, next year ... you get the point.

    This is only a "very important aspect" of poker if are converting your bankroll to and from another currency. In other words, play for euros from the US or vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by astrodon
    In futures trading if you EVER are down more than 50% of your bank roll, you STOP playing altogether
    This also is not an accurate statement. Most successful traders utilize the concept of fixed fractional trading and optimize this utilizing some sort of optimal f evaluation. For the truly successful risk takers, a swing of 50% is not unheard of ... they simply call it draw down.

    In poker, you can implement this type of fixed fractional strategy by having rules for moving up and down in stakes.

    The other items mentioned are fairly accurate similarities between speculators and poker players.
  31. #31
    Jason Moffatt's Avatar
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    Was thinking of this again. I usually take a quarter of the max buy-in to the table
    .

    I have a chapter about this is my "Poker Nutz" book. Bro you are killing yourself going into a game at 25%. What happens if you land the nuts, and your sitting on a couple bucks? Your gonna wish to god you put more money in. Here's the deal, if you got a bank roll of only $100, you sit down with as much of it as the table will allow. Now, you are not freely gamble this away, continue to play the game as if you deposited $10, but always have that extra stack there in case you hit nuts. Just becaues you sit down with the entire $100 does not mean you have to wager it.
  32. #32
    Bah, bankroll management, I'm too elite for that. Anyone ever see those chinese movie series called God of Gamblers? The main character, that's right, it's me. 8-)
  33. #33
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Well, after encountering a monster downswing THIS BIG. *holds his hands out really far apart to illustrate*

    I've decided to do some heavy reinforcements to the structure.

    I have it at 15-30. 15 buyins is for one table players, and you should be safe with that. But as you add tables, you'll have more of your bankroll in play and it's a good idea to beef up the roll.

    You don't have to live by a certain number. Everyone can take what they feel comfortable with. For most people who only play 1 or 2 tables. 15 buyins should do you well.

    But a month ago, I thought a 15 buyin downswing would have been ludicrous. Now I think that the idea of it being ludicrous is ludicrous!

    Input please? Is it a bit too much, you think?



    -'rilla
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  34. #34
    Waggho's Avatar
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    Exactly how big was your downswing?
  35. #35
    I use 2000-times the Big Blind as my bankroll figure for any game. I'm a firm believe that the blinds drive the action, not the size of the buy-in.

    My bankroll strategy is pretty simple. When i reach 2000 times the Big Blind for the next level, I move up. If it ever drops to 2000 times the Big Blind for the PREVIOUS level, I move back down.

    This is similar to fixed-fractional bankroll managment used for most high-risk endeavors. Doing this allows you to work bigger profit potentials with a smaller bankroll while simultaneously greatly reducing your overall risk of ruin. With 2000 times the Big Blind, and more than one level to play at, my total risk of ruin is currently like 1 in 100,000 ... just crazy low.

    As for multi-tabling, I make NO adjustment (and I usually play 3+ tables). Each table is mutually exclusive from the next, so theortically, you don't have any more than 1 tables money in play ... you just play the hands faster. That said, if your play deteriorates with extra tables, your bankroll needs to increase to accomodate the increased risk of playing badly (not because you 'have more money' in play). I track my play pretty thouroughly, and I don't notice any change in my win rate or standard deviation from multiple tables (I just have to think faster :P ).

    There's my $0.02 worth. Hope it's helpful.
  36. #36
    Due to lots of requests (not really..), I am now writing BR Management 102: Playing Outside The BR!! Coming soon!
    SnGs Played: 7

    1st: 3
    2nd: 0
    3rd: 2
    4th-10th: 2

    ITM %: 71.4

    Total Profit: +$660
  37. #37
    Legendash's Avatar
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    I disagree with gdaviet, the size of the buy in dictates the feel of the game completely, If you play with 200BB stacks (VC) the game is more of a limp/draw fest compared with 50BB (Party til last week) where the game was much more aggressive and getting all in was easy. It seems that all sites (except VC) now have 100BB stacks so then the argument that blind size dictates the action is valid.
    "[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."

    Copyright, Youngdro 2007.
  38. #38
    I agree that different structures will alter bankroll requirements. I should have stated that point.

    My current bankroll and play strategy is based on a max buy-in of at least 100xBB.

    I was very happy to hear that Party changed their structure.
  39. #39
    I'd say once you've an established winning player, 200 bb is fine for limit, and 10 buyins for NL.
    take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by jmontis
    I'd say once you've an established winning player, 200 bb is fine for limit, and 10 buyins for NL.
    'Rilla just had a month long -30buyin downswing if I heard right. Is he not an established winning player?

    The tips herein are to help account for the natural variance you'll see. Sure, if you're awesome you can beat the game enough to make huge profits relative to a small BR, but you're liable to lose it all doing this.

    'Rilla pwns j00! {edited for content - a500lbgorilla}

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  41. #41

    Default Bankroll vs cashout

    How much do you guys cash out of your winning and how much you add to your bankroll? Let's say you put in $200 and get it to $500? Do you consider that part of your playing bankroll or you take out some profit for yourself?
    I personally want to take out some of the wins so I see it's real money, not virtual money you want to be careless with. Any thoughts?
  42. #42
    Sed's Avatar
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    I would recommend against taking out more than 10% so you won't psychologically change how you play your game...

    Until I get my BR to a health state (~10K) I'll probably not take any profit. after that whenever I win 10% or more of the BR I'll take out all but a 5% increase to keep the BR growing steadily until I can play at soupie's stakes.

    - sed
  43. #43
    Agreed. I've withdrawn the amount needed to buy poker tracker out of my winnings. Other than that, everything is still in my BR, though now it's spread out to a few different sites.

    - Jeffrey
    I run a training site...

    Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.
  44. #44
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bankroll vs cashout

    Quote Originally Posted by poker2006
    How much do you guys cash out of your winning and how much you add to your bankroll? Let's say you put in $200 and get it to $500? Do you consider that part of your playing bankroll or you take out some profit for yourself?
    I personally want to take out some of the wins so I see it's real money, not virtual money you want to be careless with. Any thoughts?
    I didn't withdraw from my account until it was a substantial ammount.

    But that's just a college student with no expenses for yah.

    -'rilla
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  45. #45
    Gatlin Dan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bankroll vs cashout

    Quote Originally Posted by poker2006
    How much do you guys cash out of your winning and how much you add to your bankroll? Let's say you put in $200 and get it to $500? Do you consider that part of your playing bankroll or you take out some profit for yourself?
    I personally want to take out some of the wins so I see it's real money, not virtual money you want to be careless with. Any thoughts?
    If you want to take out steady withdrawals to reward yourself but still want to continue to build a roll, use a double/half approach.

    Take your 200, when you double it to 400, then take out fifty percent of your profit, leaving you with 100 in your pocket and 300 in your roll. Play again until that 300 is at six hundred, (300 profit). Take out 150 and add 150 to the roll. Repeat as appropriate.

    This rewards you for good play but also allows the building of a bankroll. If something were to happen and you were to move up a limit and end up losing it all, you would have nothing to show for all your hard work. This allows you to take profits but still move up in levels, although it takes longer, which is not always a bad thing.

    I would also take any bonuses you clear and use then entirely for the bankroll. These should not count as profits and not be incorporated into any profit calculations. They are there to build a bankroll. Use them for solely that.
  46. #46
    daniel101111 Guest
    Actually, no limit tables can kill you very fast. I usually play $1/$2 table, then once you have at least 10 times the upper limit on your current table, you go for the next level (in this case once you reached $20, you switch to play $3/$6 ones). Unless you are tight in cash (or just started up), always have two full buy-ins in your account and ready to pour in in the middle (Not Applicable to tournaments). I was able to go from $5 to about $140 in a couple of weeks in partypoker.com with this strategy.
  47. #47
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniel101111
    Actually, no limit tables can kill you very fast. I usually play $1/$2 table, then once you have at least 10 times the upper limit on your current table, you go for the next level (in this case once you reached $20, you switch to play $3/$6 ones). Unless you are tight in cash (or just started up), always have two full buy-ins in your account and ready to pour in in the middle (Not Applicable to tournaments). I was able to go from $5 to about $1400 in a couple of weeks in partypoker.com with this strategy.
    What are you talking about?

    Once you've made $20 dollars at the 1/2 NL tables move to 3/6?

    That's too stupid to be what you meant.

    And a bankroll of two full buyins?

    -'rilla
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  48. #48
    Les_Worm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniel101111
    I was able to go from $5 to about $1400 in a couple of weeks in partypoker.com with this strategy.
    Could you further explain your strategy, I guess I don't understand.
    The artist formerly known as Knish
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  49. #49
    this threads real long didn't take the time to read all of it..

    but, my BR is at like 230 now after a couple of days of ring...

    When can i move up to the 50 level?? when i hit 500 or somethin?

    I have been winning consistently at the 25 ring game, but I don't knowwhether its beginners luck or what
  50. #50
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ender555
    this threads real long didn't take the time to read all of it..

    but, my BR is at like 230 now after a couple of days of ring...

    When can i move up to the 50 level?? when i hit 500 or somethin?

    I have been winning consistently at the 25 ring game, but I don't knowwhether its beginners luck or what
    750 should be enough. Better safe than sorry.

    You're a little under bankrolled for 25 as is, but not dangerously by any stretch.

    -'rilla
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  51. #51
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    <MannerBoy> and remember
    <MannerBoy> dont read rilla br managment
    <MannerBoy> cya
    * MannerBoy has quit IRC (Quit)
    <Estrop> yeah rillas BR management is flawed
    * a500lbgorilla scratches his head.
    <Estrop> Well..
    <Estrop> I like to play it a lot more safe
    <Estrop> have over 30 buy ins
    <a500lbgorilla> stfu...
    <Estrop> this way, if I slide it doesn't effect me
    <dwarfman> bad Estrop
    <Estrop> bad?
    <Estrop> how?
    <dwarfman> bad
    <a500lbgorilla> If you really believed that, then you're playing too afraid to ever be successful at any meaningful stakes.
    <Estrop> Why?
    <a500lbgorilla> So, yes. "bad"
    <Estrop> hmm
    <dwarfman> a good player can handle a slide in NL ring with 15 buyins
    <Estrop> I disagree
    <Estrop> I haven't really had a slide, I think I'm good enough
    <Estrop> Less risks = better
    <mtbottle> mtbottle's patented anti-bankroll management. Screw the 30x buy-in rule. Play at the highest table that will let you sit down. Lose. Stop playing poker.
    <a500lbgorilla> I'm sorry, there's no way around it. You're built with a natural fear that will only hold you back. Maybe not forever, but it will hold you back.
    <mtbottle> the end
    <a500lbgorilla> less risks = -EV
    <a500lbgorilla> or less EV
    <Estrop> depends how you look at it
    <a500lbgorilla> Less EV != better
    <Estrop> I'm profiting this way
    <a500lbgorilla> with 30 buyins your risk of ruin is zero
    <Estrop> yep
    <a500lbgorilla> Beyond 30 is just insane.
    <Estrop> I can't lose
    <mtbottle> ruin isn't fun
    <a500lbgorilla> And you're just wasting your time.
    <a500lbgorilla> The longer you stay away from profitable higher stakes, the less money you earn.

    -'rilla
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  52. #52
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    <Estrop> if I played higher stakes, I could win a lot more, but I could also lose everything I've done so far
    <Estrop> why risk it when I am comfortably profiting
    <dwarfman> it's not a risk

    FEAR

    -'rilla
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  53. #53
    CONTROL

    If I lose a buy in. It is only a very small amount of my BR. This way it prevents me from tilting. Without tilt, I play my game and I can win consistently. I have only been playing a month so I don't see my self as a really good player yet.
  54. #54
    COMPROMISE: Short stack @ higher stakes.



    Hate me. You know you want to.

    P.S. I guess all of this means I should be buying in full to NL$100 or moving to NL$200 sooner than I thought...

    P.P.S. Holy crap I need to quit posting!!! I've only got 14 left before d-day!
    I run a training site...

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  55. #55
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estrop
    CONTROL

    If I lose a buy in. It is only a very small amount of my BR. This way it prevents me from tilting. Without tilt, I play my game and I can win consistently. I have only been playing a month so I don't see my self as a really good player yet.
    You're just holding yourself back. The longer you play at 25 NL over bankrolled, the more money you're taking out of your own pocket. You could be playing at 50NL and theoretically be winning twice as much money. So look at your month's profit, double it, and cry.

    -'rilla
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  56. #56
    Yep rilla your right and wrong. I look at my montly profits and think I could of doubled them. Then I look at how much I would of lost on those bad days and double them.. yeah now I cry. Losing $200 of a $600 bankroll? I don't think I would sit comfortable with that.
  57. #57
    So do the rules change if I four-table? Here's my story:

    A member of FTR BR'ed me for $500 on March 10th. After turning a large profit I gave him his original $500 plus another $500 back to him. This left me with $500 for my own personal BR.

    I have since turned that $500 into $1350. If you count the extra $500 I had to give back to my BR'er I have made a $1850 profit in the last two months.

    I four-table NL25, mostly doing the whole camping thing. My personal current BR is $1350. With that type of BR should I allow myself to four-table NL50? Or is there another suggestion out there for me?

    Lemme know what you guys think...


  58. #58
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Never sit down with more than 10% of your bankroll on any given day.

    -'rilla
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  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
    Never sit down with more than 10% of your bankroll on any given day.

    -'rilla
    I have a question about amount you win before you leave a table - in another thread about Bankroll in the beginners circle:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=10841

    Essentially what I would like to know is this:

    1. Do you set a limit on what to win for a given session? I ask this because I tend to do well early on in a ring game, but then play on and lose most of that profit (overconfidence/lack of skill/lack of experience etc...). So when is the best point to leave a game? How do you calculate when you have won as much as you are going to in that session? If you only risk losing 10% per day, do you only try to win 10% per day?

    2. A log showing what you started/finished with, what was the max/min you had before leaving and what level you play at. This would be a great pointer for us beginners, to get a feel for when the right time to leave is.
  60. #60
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    For some people, leaving early might be a quick fix to problems with big stack play. But you've got to learn to play a big stack since it correlates into EV.

    I just play til I'm done or the table has altered in some way that I don't think benefits me. This is usually rocks or strong players sitting in the place of weaker players. Or another strong player building a stack equal to mine.

    -'rilla
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  61. #61

    Default This has definitly put me in my place

    I started playing online about a week ago and after so long the 2 dollar no limit games seemed to be going nowhere in terms of "making money."
    I decided to go to $10 games , got some good breaks and figured i was ready to move up. I started at $100, brought myself up tp $200 in one night, but woke up today and dropped $50 before i knew it.

    I had to jump back and look at what the hell i was doing wrong. Mostly i just took alot of bad breaks but that got me to Tilt. im glad i could catch myself before i dropped fast, but i think i need to go back down to smaller buy-ins until i get my game going more solid.

    Let me know what you guys think, if im just overreacting cause of my first big slump or if i should slow my role and be more patient with my games progression.
  62. #62
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Um. Do what I say. :P You may have just gone on a hot streak of cards. Also, your opponents play differently between the 10 buyins and the 100 buyins.

    -'rilla
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  63. #63

    Default This is why bankroll management is important

    This is why bankroll management is important



    If your bankroll can't take the swing, you can't play anymore. you'd be surprised what those cards can do. I was surprised anyway.

    This is Limit, so things are a little different. at the start i was feeling good, like i was solidly beating the game. now i'm wondering if i was just lucky. having enough cushon in your bankroll is essential. if i went on that swing from the outset, i'd have quit poker. lucky for me i only lost my winnings.

    it's not easy looking at only having $0.12 for hours and hours of work. make sure you can take it.
    Noooooooooooooooo!!
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  64. #64
    Legendash's Avatar
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    Did you make that graph with data from poker tracker? If so how?
    I bet my graph looks really similar
    "[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."

    Copyright, Youngdro 2007.
  65. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Legendash
    Did you make that graph with data from Poker Tracker? If so how?
    I bet my graph looks really similar
    my graph tool is from
    http://www.pokertracker.com/forum/vi...ighlight=graph
    but if you search for "graph" a couple will pop up.

    really drives home what's going on
    Noooooooooooooooo!!
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  66. #66
    I like the concepts being presented on this thread...

    What about folks who deposit $50 and then go sit down at a .10/.25?

    That's a $25NL at FTP, and that would violate the 15buyin rule. But you don't generally want to play anything lower than those tables because people are loose and play everything...and that's annoying. You might as well play play money.

    Thoughts?
  67. #67
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisqo
    I like the concepts being presented on this thread...

    What about folks who depoit $50 and then go sit down at a .10/.25?

    That's a $25NL at FTP, and that would violate the 15buyin rule. But you don't generally want to play anything lower than those tables because people are loose and play everything...and that's annoying. You might as well play play money.

    Thoughts?
    You need to deposit more than 50 if you want to win. That's just plain and simple.

    So you can either deposit 50, go bust, deposit 50, roll up to 225, go bust, deposit 50 and finally build a roll of 750 and be properly bankrolled for the next stake.

    Or you can just get 300 bucks together and skip that whole "going bust mess."

    And this also keeps you from making the same mistake at higher stakes. Like, deposit 50, turn that into 150, play 50 nl, turn that into 300, play 100 nl, turn that into 700, play 200 nl, turn that into a grand and then going bust.

    So the folks who wanna drop 50 to play poker, shouldn't be expecting much in the long term.

    -'rilla
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  68. #68
    That explains a lot.

    Thanks gorilla...I appreciate your input.

    So let me get this right -- with me being new here -- when you say $25NL, that means "$25 dollar max buyin, regardless of blind structure (which would probably be .10/.25)"?

    So when you say 15 buyins, in this case, to play a .10/.25 table ($25 max buyin), you should have a BR of $375?

    That's risking actually less than 10%...so is that kinda where your numbers come from the whole 10% a day thing as well?

    That really does make sense...it would be easier on me definitely...
  69. #69
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    The 10% rule was just a way of standardizing all the, "how many buyins for x stake or whatever stake of SnGs?"

    I originally had my numbers set at 10 buyins for NL, but bumped it up to 15 after hitting an enormous downswing and thinking beefing it up a tad wouldn't do any harm. I also tapped it up a bit becuase a lot of people were playing with 10 buyins but multitabling, so I just wanted to give them a little extra bankroll under their belts.

    And yes, 25NL means 25 max buyin, or usually .1/.25. I'm just so used to calling it 25 NL.

    If you're only playing 1 table at a time, you'll be very safe with 10 buyins, at 2 tables, you're not hurting with 15 buyins and at 3-4 tables you'll be safe with 20.

    Of course, these are not strict guidelines, just heavy suggestions.
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  70. #70
    Thanks bud...

    I like them. I think that's smart management. If I were to tweak for my personal tastes, I'l probably be somewhere around 10-12 buyins...

    I don't play limit, and mostly a combo of cash and MTT games...
  71. #71
    Muxy's Avatar
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    I want to play 1/2 NL max buy in is 200, so i need

    3000 to play?
  72. #72
    Yes, so start grinding.
  73. #73
    Muxy's Avatar
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    Hehehe I think i will just move up one level to .10/.25 hehehehe.
  74. #74
    SinkRox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muxy
    I want to play 1/2 NL max buy in is 200, so i need

    3000 to play?
    if i was playing 200NL 6MAX I would want a roll of at least 6k (30 buy-ins) I may need even more - 40 or 50 at such higher limit; I will have to find out when Im there (currently Im only bankrolled for 25NL)

    (note I only play 6 max where theres more varience but I still doubt a 3k roll is sufficient for 200NL 10 max)

    varience could easily cause a 5 buy-in downswing, that would drop the 3K to 2k - chopping 1/3rd of your BR, if varience continues (7 buy-in downswing) your now sitting with 1.6k and your BR has almost halfed
    Experimenting - 200NL 5max.

    "They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life
  75. #75
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    Default Quick Bankroll guide

    Matther Hilger in his Internet Texas Hold "Em book recommends the following for a bankroll guidline:

    0.50-1.00 $500

    1.00-2.00 $800

    2.00-4.00 $1200

    That should be enough to keep you going for now.

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