another queens oop hand

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($5.82)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($0.38)
MP2 ($12.27)
MP3 ($6.07)
CO ($2.32)
BTN ($5.25)
SB ($3.06)
kickass ($5.57)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 9 players) kickass is BB
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, 4 folds, BTN raises to $0.90, 1 fold, $0.85 to kickass ($5.52)?


UTG+1 IS A 12/9 over 800 seems good gave me a hard time quite alot. button is a 59/11 over 40 not seen this kind of action from him before.
fold?

Its a fold for me.

Originally Posted by Openside

Its a fold for me.

I just wanted to quote this for posterity.

maybe i am learning.

RANGE? range? Can I get a range please?

Originally Posted by !Luck

RANGE? range? Can I get a range please?

Easy there spoonitjunior at least he converted the hand and gave reads.

@OP I would probably elect to 4bet call it off vs the 59/11 here. That said, your 4bet can be relatively small like maybe even just click it back. If the nitty reg jams you probably have to fold but calling to play what will likely end up being a 3way OOP pot seems pretty bad. I suppose you could fold but fishy is in the pot and we want fishy's monies.

imo small 4bet > fold > calling.

Originally Posted by !Luck

RANGE? range? Can I get a range please?

Maybe we should just lock each thread with no ranges until the OP PMs one of us.

jfc if we could all post accurate ranges there would be no reason to post would there?

4b cib. fold if the UTG jams call if fish does

pretty straightforward here, I like a 4bet. I think folding is asinine though; and a cold-call is slightly better.

The conditional probability of a 59/11 being a fucking idiot is pretty high. The conditional probability of a 59/11 3betting only QQ+, AK is not high, even if he is somehow aware that UTG+1 is a nit opening from EP.

In summary: 4-bet>call>fold.

Nit's range is probably something like AQ+, 99+, with perhaps a side of KQs (this works out to 5.4%). Moron's range can be anything from TT+, AK, to a bunch of other retarded bullshit. 59/11. Dude has no clue, he may think of 3betting AJs there for value. "Oya, he's passive, he's calling almost 6x as much as he's raising pre"----> if you think this implies an ultratight 3bet range from a player of this caliber at 5nl where we now have to fold QQ then please get a fucking clue.

As an aside, it'd be nice to know if he's positionally aware at all - if not...

also I want to smack openside for saying this is a cold fold, seriously dude what the fuck.

Originally Posted by Penneywize

pretty straightforward here, I like a 4bet. I think folding is asinine though; and a cold-call is slightly better.

The conditional probability of a 59/11 being a fucking idiot is pretty high. The conditional probability of a 59/11 3betting only QQ+, AK is not high, even if he is somehow aware that UTG+1 is a nit opening from EP.

In summary: 4-bet>call>fold.

Nit's range is probably something like AQ+, 99+, with perhaps a side of KQs (this works out to 5.4%). Moron's range can be anything from TT+, AK, to a bunch of other retarded bullshit. 59/11. Dude has no clue, he may think of 3betting AJs there for value. "Oya, he's passive, he's calling almost 6x as much as he's raising pre"----> if you think this implies an ultratight 3bet range from a player of this caliber at 5nl where we now have to fold QQ then please get a fucking clue.

As an aside, it'd be nice to know if he's positionally aware at all - if not...

also I want to smack openside for saying this is a cold fold, seriously dude what the fuck.

Jesus Penney, forget to take your med.s this morning? I play horribly oop. In this position, cold-calling, i am folding to 12/9's shove and if he comes along i am shitting myself and c/f to any action if an A or K hit the board. Bc i play so badly and bc i have no reads i get out cheap. Reads>hud imo.

EDIT: making potentially stack size decisions based upon a 40 hand sample size with no reads is why i don't 4bet here. I am not arguing against your line of thought. I'm stating that bc of my post-flop play that folding is the lesser of two evils for me.

Originally Posted by Openside

Jesus Penney, forget to take your med.s this morning? I play horribly oop. In this position, cold-calling, i am folding to 12/9's shove and if he comes along i am shitting myself and c/f to any action if an A or K hit the board. Bc i play so badly and bc i have no reads i get out cheap. Reads>hud imo.

EDIT: making potentially stack size decisions based upon a 40 hand sample size with no reads is why i don't 4bet here. I am not arguing against your line of thought. I'm stating that bc of my post-flop play that folding is the lesser of two evils for me.

meh sounds like u need to work on ur confidence bra. yeah I was a little harsh. I get like that sometimes. lopl

Originally Posted by bikes

jfc if we could all post accurate ranges there would be no reason to post would there?

This is exactly why he needs to post ranges

Originally Posted by bikes

jfc if we could all post accurate ranges there would be no reason to post would there?

you ever get tired of trolling the BC?

Originally Posted by kfaess

you ever get tired of trolling the BC?

This too.

To be fair, he said it's a cold fold FOR HIM.

/

What is the 59/11's 3bet %?

no not rly

but my advice on what to do is pretty close to what i would do i think

Yay let's drive away the few good players who frequent the BC. Fuck off bikes noone cares about what you think, you tard....

Originally Posted by Carroters

Yay let's drive away the few good players who frequent the BC. Fuck off bikes noone cares about what you think, you tard....

post a range of good players before you say that shit

can we get rid of that carrots n00b too

sorry for the no ranges.
UTG+1 is pretty standard JJ+ AQ+. I have seen him limping his middle pairs in early position. maybe he limps Jacks too, don't know. I think he's gonna be pretty happy shipping his range here minus the very bottom end AQ vs the fat fish, but that prolly would change if I get involved. the fish however is strange he is very stupid aggro post flop overbetting most flops but usually not pre. This is his first 3bet which leads me to thinking he has something at least a middle pair or a big A. He is very happy throwing his chips about which is gonna make it hard to play queens oop if I flat although if i flop an overpair i am happy to get it in vs him as i think his whole range would go to showdown with me.
i thought it was all in or fold and opted for fold what 4 bet size do you think is best giving me room to fold if UTG shoves, what if the fish flats, should i be happy to stack off no matter what comes. I thought that it was easier to not get involved and forfeit my blind and a pretty nice hand. definitely missing value but not loosing much by making this mistake.

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I actually think it's better to not post ranges since it makes everyone reading the thread put a little more analysis into the hand, rather than using OP's predefined range. Plus, who the fuck needs to put a range up for a 12/9 opening UTG and a retard 3-betting said UTG opener? It should be fairly obvious, even for the noobiest of the BC.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Maybe I'm in the minority here but I actually think it's better to not post ranges since it makes everyone reading the thread put a little more analysis into the hand, rather than using OP's predefined range. Plus, who the fuck needs to put a range up for a 12/9 opening UTG and a retard 3-betting said UTG opener? It should be fairly obvious, even for the noobiest of the BC.

I couldn't put a range on a 12/9 when as little as a year ago. Some of us are slower than others. I would post a hand get a reply and be like ooooooooh. And move on. And I never developed the skill to put people on ranges until spoon ridiculed me into doing it. Im not as direct as spoon, but the OP needs to put some thought into ranges. It maybe obvoius to you to not 3 bet an UTG open with JJ. But that's not the case when you first start.

Kickass thanks for putting range.

!luck

Folding is fine. We're oop without a plan for the flop. 4betting's great but allows hero to spew huge post without a good amount discipline. Calling sucks I think.

What's our plan if we do 4bet? Cbet any dry board which obvsly gets us committed to the pot? C/f any Ahigh or Khigh flop?

I srsly don't know, it seems like we should be folding most of the time when we don't know how to play our hand.

Originally Posted by supahaole

Folding is fine. We're oop without a plan for the flop. 4betting's great but allows hero to spew huge post without a good amount discipline. Calling sucks I think.

What's our plan if we do 4bet? Cbet any dry board which obvsly gets us committed to the pot? C/f any Ahigh or Khigh flop?

I srsly don't know, it seems like we should be folding most of the time when we don't know how to play our hand.

Stacking off on any non A or K high board vs the 59/11. Playing extremely straight forward and carefully if the UTG+1 comes along.

Originally Posted by Donachello

Stacking off on any non A or K high board vs the 59/11. Playing extremely straight forward and carefully if the UTG+1 comes along.

Here's the thing. The fish is 59/11 which means (to me) he likes to see alot of flops for cheap, raises a fairly tight range and we haven't seen him 3bet yet. His 3bet is solid, ie; not a min raise or shove but a slight over bet which we should assume is a big hand unless we have reads that say otherwise.

how are we spewing in a 4b pot with a premium pair now?

Originally Posted by bikes

how are we spewing in a 4b pot with a premium pair now?

Exactly my point, some of us don't know.

Fwiw, I think bikes 1 line posts get us thinking a bit and I actually appreciate his contributions.

Originally Posted by supahaole

Fwiw, I think bikes 1 line posts get us thinking a bit and I actually appreciate his contributions.

I definitely appreciate his strategy posts.

I really appreciate that bikes takes the time to post replies. @stargrinder I disagree and will give my reasons in 12 hours.

!luck

the way the fish sizes his 3b it's generally going to be weighted towards AK and JJ and then KK and then AA but heavily weighted towards AK and JJ.

its easier to play when we 4b because of. OMG SPR. not really but yeah its easier to play because of SPR. we have a premium pair that plays well on most flops that we're happy to get in pre against the fish.

Qxx - 322 the hand plays itself almost. cbet/call jam. shove almost every turn.
Kxx - Axx, c/c one most likely c/f OTT or if he checks behind the flop. or bet the turn, sizing dependant on texture and re-evaul on the river based on timing tells and board texture.

you guys have to be willing to put yourselves in somewhat tough spots if you want to get better at poker and this is a pretty good opportunity to do so on the right board. also we dominate the fishes's range anyway so its a giantly +EV spot. if he had AA or KK c'est la vie next hand

I also fold it.

bikes' point and plan are fair, but I think we need more reads to weight fish's 3b range towards JJ and AK based on his sizing (if he even 3b AK). He may be a fish, but his PFR is only 11 and his 3b% is probably negligible.

Originally Posted by daviddem

I also fold it.

bikes' point and plan are fair, but I think we need more reads to weight fish's 3b range towards JJ and AK based on his sizing (if he even 3b AK). He may be a fish, but his PFR is only 11 and his 3b% is probably negligible.

<tilts heavily>

Not sure why this is such a crystal clear fold for some of you, especially considering the fish is getting it in with JJ and AK and we're not even counting random spazzes with AX or whatever else. Only problem is we've got a tight UTG opener still to act, however we're still ahead of his initial opening range.

UTG: 24% { KK+, JJ-77, AQs+, AQo+ }
BTN: 39% { KK+, JJ, AKs, AKo } <--- Having a hard time not including more hands we beat here
HERO: 37% { QQ }

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Not sure why this is such a crystal clear fold for some of you, especially considering the fish is getting it in with JJ and AK and we're not even counting random spazzes with AX or whatever else. Only problem is we've got a tight UTG opener still to act, however we're still ahead of his initial opening range.

UTG: 24% { KK+, JJ-77, AQs+, AQo+ }
BTN: 39% { KK+, JJ, AKs, AKo } <--- Having a hard time not including more hands we beat here
HERO: 37% { QQ }

I'm having a hard time understanding why this statement is true. I'm not saying it isn't, I just haven't seen any evidence to support it. If the answer is simply that he's a fish, than I disagree.

I don't understand what you're asking. Are you saying the fish isn't 3-betting with JJ/AK (or worse) or that he won't get it in preflop with those hands?

^^ are these their continuing ranges to a 4b or their ranges before we play? How would you split these into fold to / call / shove over a min4b?

Originally Posted by Penneywize

<tilts heavily>

...want a trout slap to straighten you up?

I'm saying that I see no reason to assume that. It's been mentioned several times and I don't really get it.

Originally Posted by supahaole

Here's the thing. The fish is 59/11 which means (to me) he likes to see alot of flops for cheap, raises a fairly tight range and we haven't seen him 3bet yet. His 3bet is solid, ie; not a min raise or shove but a slight over bet which we should assume is a big hand unless we have reads that say otherwise.

With stats of 59/11 over 40 there's definately some spazz in his 3bet range. Supahaole, you're right: He likes to see cheap flops but saw everyone fold after the nit UTG+1's raise and could be figuring that by 3betting to 4.5x the blinds will get out of the way and the nit will probably fold. Hell, he could be playing nothing with a shit kicker. I'd be more concerned if his 3bet was to between .55 to .65.
This is an absolute 4bet.
Unless the nit's got a monster, (AA, KK) then he's probably going to fold and if the btn 5bets min I'd shove, or call his shove and reload.

Meh, somehow turning the fish into a thinker doesn't sit right with me.