5NL - Crushed twice

OK, rolled myself for 5NL twice now and have been crushed twice. Second time it only took 1,200 hands, suffice to say I am not feeling too good right now at all.

I am crushing 2NL but as soon as I move up I am getting ridiculously beaten up.

Has anyone got some good solid advice for me that I can take with me next time I manage to move up?

Next time you move up:
- play on a weekend
- spend time looking for good seats with fish to your right (full stacked fish if possible, at least avoid the tables full of the 40bblinders that infest pokerstars)
- play very tight ABC poker until you win a few buy ins.

Stats.

Originally Posted by supa

Stats.

+1

I knew there was something I had forgotten, although, I can't find the page where PT4 keeps all my stats? I find it quite difficult to navigate, does anyone know how I can find it?

I found my stats on pt4 a couple of weeks ago.
Can't remember how to again though. If you find them, do tell.

along the top select view stats,$ and statistics
down the left pane , select your username,report is overview, and select the filters you want to use.

I prefer HEM2 though.

Originally Posted by Keith

along the top select view stats,$ and statistics
down the left pane , select your username,report is overview, and select the filters you want to use.

I prefer HEM2 though.

How do I get my overall stats though? All I have when I use that is Hands, C Won, VPIP, PFR, AFq, WTSD%, WSD.

How do I see my cbet stats, fold to cbet, 3bet, fold to 3bet etc etc etc all on one page for my whole time playing 5NL?

I am going to have to write them out as I have found them but have no way of getting them off PT without it being saved to Excel;

Hands: 10,554
Won: -$56.42
My C All-In Adj: -$46.65
BB/100: -$10.69
VPIP: 22.13
PFR: 16.70
3Bet PF: 4.03
Call PF 3Bet: 30.75
Fold to PF 3Bet: 66.20
4Bet+ PF: 4.45
Fold to PF 4Bet: 45.83
Cbet Flop: 53.98
Cbet Turn: 72.50
CBet River: 67.86
Fold to Flop Cbet: 40.78
Att to Steal: 35.56
3Bet Steal: 6.17
Fold to Steal ( not sure how they get this stat ) : 78.65
Total AF: 1.20
Total AFq: 37.94
WTSD%: 32.26
WSD: 49.62

Sorry for the wall of text, if there are any other stats let me know and I will try to dig them out.

you're looking for this screen




EDIT : look like you beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Fold to Steal ( not sure how they get this stat ) : 78.65
T.

you Fold 78.65% of the time, when its folded to the BTN , the button steals and you fold in the blinds.

No I knew what the stat meant, what I meant to say was they don't know how many times button was raising with a legitimate hand, not actually as a steal.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Cbet Flop: 53.98
Cbet Turn: 72.50
CBet River: 67.86

Sorry for the wall of text, if there are any other stats let me know and I will try to dig them out.

I can see a possible problem right here. (Unless I'm misreading this.) You seem to be having a hard time letting your hand go once you're in the pot and it doesn't hit. C-betting the river is a move you use to balance your play so your opponent pays you off when you do have a hand. But you don't need to do a lot of it to get that effect, maybe 5-10%. If you're c-betting the river this much, then you're trying to force others out of the hand when you don't hit your AK or flush draw.

I personally love when an opponent does this to me. I just wait and stack him with value. And you'll get stacked here too at anything but the lowest levels. It's HIGHLY exploitable, and easy to do so, to boot.

edit: This is an especially big leak due to the size of the bets by the time you get to the river.

Alternatively, this is you attempting to scoop up orphan pots against VERY weak players. But you won't find this weakness above the very lowest levels. You'll find yourself cringe called by the player with a pair of 3's against your air.

Do me a favor, and see if you can dig out your stats for the following hands:

KJo
QJo
22
9-10s
3-4s
A5s
JJ
10-10
KQ
AK

Also, see if you can find the stats specifically for:

Button
SB
BB

Ok, To keep thinks simple , the raise is this situation is called a steal whatever BTN holds.

Originally Posted by davisrei

I can see a possible problem right here. (Unless I'm misreading this.) You seem to be having a hard time letting your hand go once you're in the pot and it doesn't hit. C-betting the river is a move you use to balance your play so your opponent pays you off when you do have a hand. But you don't need to do a lot of it to get that effect, maybe 5-10%. If you're c-betting the river this much, then you're trying to force others out of the hand when you don't hit your AK or flush draw.

I'm not sure you know what all of these stats mean.

If you are the aggressor pre-flop and it checks to you on the flop, then cbet flop is the percentage of the time you make a bet instead of checking.

If you make a cbet on the flop, you are the aggressor on the flop and it checks to you on the turn, cbet turn is the percentage of the time you make a bet instead of checking. (ie: firing the second barrel)

If you make a cbet on the turn, you are the aggressor on the turn and it checks to you on the river, cbet river is the percentage of the time you make a bet instead of checking. (ie: firing the third barrel)

Cbet Flop: 53.98
Cbet Turn: 72.50
CBet River: 67.86

To put this in perspective, he's only firing two barrels with about 0.5398 * 0.7250 = 39 percent of his range and firing three barrels with about 0.5398 * 0.7250 * 0.6786 = 27 percent of his range when he's the aggressor pre-flop. He's the aggressor pre-flop less than 17 percent of the time. This means he's double-barreling less than 6.6 percent of all hands and triple-barreling less than 4.6 percent of all hands.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

How do I get my overall stats though? All I have when I use that is Hands, C Won, VPIP, PFR, AFq, WTSD%, WSD.

How do I see my cbet stats, fold to cbet, 3bet, fold to 3bet etc etc etc all on one page for my whole time playing 5NL?

I am going to have to write them out as I have found them but have no way of getting them off PT without it being saved to Excel;

Hands: 10,554
Won: -$56.42
My C All-In Adj: -$46.65
BB/100: -$10.69
VPIP: 22.13
PFR: 16.70
3Bet PF: 4.03
Call PF 3Bet: 30.75
Fold to PF 3Bet: 66.20
4Bet+ PF: 4.45
Fold to PF 4Bet: 45.83
Cbet Flop: 53.98
Cbet Turn: 72.50
CBet River: 67.86
Fold to Flop Cbet: 40.78
Att to Steal: 35.56
3Bet Steal: 6.17
Fold to Steal ( not sure how they get this stat ) : 78.65
Total AF: 1.20
Total AFq: 37.94
WTSD%: 32.26
WSD: 49.62

Sorry for the wall of text, if there are any other stats let me know and I will try to dig them out.

Taking a screenshot will make life easier. We'd also like to see your positional stats and your showdown/non-showdown winnings graph.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'm not sure you know what all of these stats mean.

If you are the aggressor pre-flop and it checks to you on the flop, then cbet flop is the percentage of the time you make a bet instead of checking.

My mistake then. I was using the general term for c-bet, rather than value betting. I didn't know that the database didn't make that distinction.

Originally Posted by davisrei

My mistake then. I was using the general term for c-bet, rather than value betting. I didn't know that the database didn't make that distinction.

It's cool. There's another stat called bet % that gives the percentage of the time a player bet on a given street regardless of the previous action.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Taking a screenshot will make life easier. We'd also like to see your positional stats and your showdown/non-showdown winnings graph.

I can't screenshot the stats as they are in one huge line, so it only actually catches about 6-8 of the stats as I have to scroll to reach the rest of them. Will see what I can do

I'll have to say that you did better than most people do on their first time posting stats and graphs.

1. You're looser in MP than UTG.
2. You call 3bets a lot. Filter for calling a 3bet and let's see how you're doing there.
3. Can you get us your cbet success and cbet turn success percentages?
4. Thank you for the graph. Can you do it based on hands instead of days you played? It's much more useful based on hands.
5. I would really like to see your Raised First In stats by position (might be RFI for short).
6. You call a lot and don't 3-bet very much when facing raises pre-flop.

I can be a lot more helpful if I can get this information.

I'd play tighter for starters. You raise 16% in EP, that is pretty wide. Maybe steal a little less in LP also. Overall stats of 17/14 or 17/13 or so.

You don't ALWAYS have to raise limpers. Limping behind with speculative hands in multiway pots can prove profitable as well and are easier to get away from when you do not hit the flop.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'll have to say that you did better than most people do on their first time posting stats and graphs.

1. You're looser in MP than UTG.
2. You call 3bets a lot. Filter for calling a 3bet and let's see how you're doing there.
3. Can you get us your cbet success and cbet turn success percentages?
4. Thank you for the graph. Can you do it based on hands instead of days you played? It's much more useful based on hands.
5. I would really like to see your Raised First In stats by position (might be RFI for short).
6. You call a lot and don't 3-bet very much when facing raises pre-flop.

I can be a lot more helpful if I can get this information.

1. I am looser in MP? I assume you have mis-read and mean tighter?

2.





3. Cbet F Suc - 48.59
Cbet T Suc - 48.28

4.

5.



6. Yeah I figured that I just don't like 3betting a lot unless I have position or have a good starting hand. Hate 3betting with hands like AQo for e.g then having to fold the flop when I miss.

I hope all this info is a bit more helpful. Again, anything in particular you want, just ask, and I will try to find it.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

6. Yeah I figured that I just don't like 3betting a lot unless I have position or have a good starting hand. Hate 3betting with hands like AQo for e.g then having to fold the flop when I miss.

this tells me you probably don't know how/when to 3b for value. might be time to start looking at widening your value 3bet range when your opponents cant fold hands like 22-66 and A9-AJ,KQo (especially when they are OOP). also, i'm pretty confident you could be 3betting more as a bluff vs the regulars who i would assume are pretty nitty/unable to notice when they are being exploited (or what to do about it) and who make their money simply by stealings blinds and value betting fish

Yeah I meant that you're tighter in MP than you are UTG. I'll comment on the rest later when my girlfriend isn't waiting on me to hurry the fuck up.

Originally Posted by rpm

i'm pretty confident you could be 3betting more as a bluff vs the regulars who i would assume are pretty nitty/unable to notice when they are being exploited (or what to do about it) and who make their money simply by stealing dead money and value betting solid hands.

FYP
This is good advice. By the way, if you're not doing this, you should check it out. Not the unable to notice... part, but the stealing and V-betting.

Also, and just to clear it up, these are not mutually exclusive things. You can be stealing and V-betting at the same time.

If a villain goes crazy with 3-bets, then yeah, I'm going to notice and adjust. If a villain only slightly alters their range to adjust to me, though... will I adjust? Will I adjust properly? Probably not. I'm at 10NL, you think I can adjust my range to exploit specific villains who are only slightly out of line? Not yet. I can adjust to blatant BS, but subtle BS is harder to deal with.

My point: add some subtle BS to your 3-betting range.

I do 3bet a decent amount with bad hands, but only when I have position. This is going to sound dumb as fuck but...even when I know somebody is stealing a lot from the button I hesitate to 3bet from the blinds because I know I am OOP for the rest of the hand and I will have to fire at least once if he calls my 3bet.

if you hold 66 in the blinds and full stacked villain is opening 50% of hands on the btn are you set mining or 3betting his btn steals?

Originally Posted by Keith

if you hold 66 in the blinds and full stacked villain is opening 50% of hands on the btn are you set mining or 3betting his btn steals?

I just call to set-mine.

how much are you expecting to win when you hit your set and what do you do when you miss your set?

Would need more stats on villain to know how much I could expect to win and would need that to know what to do if I miss flop.

Set mining works better against a strong range, a villain opening 50% won't pay you off nearly enough.

If you call your 66 will be ahead on most flops regardless of set, but you're OOP against a massive range and you'll have no idea if he's cbetting or if he really has hit an over to your 66, how fun.

Also, Uncharted so f'n much. Drake is a badass

1. You need to be tighter UTG. Other positions seem okay in terms of VPIP/PFR.

2. You're losing an average of about 4.2 bb on hands where you call a 3-bet. Since your average open is probably in the range of 3-4 bb, this means that your calls are losing money compared to folding on average. I would suggest that you make a separate thread with about four or five hands where you weren't sure if you should have called a 3-bet so that you can start to figure out where you should be folding to 3-bets (or 4-betting) more often.

3. I would suggest continuation betting a bit more often on the flop, though this will happen naturally if you tighten up pre-flop slightly. Make a thread with about four or five hands where you weren't sure if you should continuation bet on the flop.

4. A lot of your red line comes from a combination of calling 3-bets as often as you do and avoiding continuation betting as much as you probably could on the flop. Working on 1-3 above will help this a lot.

5. I actually just meant RFI the stat that you can add as one of the columns, but I don't know if you know how to do that in PT4, and I don't know how to do it either. It's not such a big deal, so it's all good. It just tells you about what percentage of hands you're open raising, and I was going to use it to see what the deal was with your MP/UTG stats.

6. You need to work on this whole 3-betting thing both for value and as a bluff. Is there a 3-betting success statistic? I'd be very interested in knowing what yours is overall (don't need it by position).

Cobra, you said that you lost a full shot at 5NL over 1200 hands. Are you seeing a slow but steady drain, or do have a lot of pivotal hands that wiped out stacks? Or a combo of both? If you're getting stacked a lot, then posting some of those hands for review might help.

the latest beta is 4.05.09 which you can download from the pokertracker site.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

1. You need to be tighter UTG. Other positions seem okay in terms of VPIP/PFR.

2. You're losing an average of about 4.2 bb on hands where you call a 3-bet. Since your average open is probably in the range of 3-4 bb, this means that your calls are losing money compared to folding on average. I would suggest that you make a separate thread with about four or five hands where you weren't sure if you should have called a 3-bet so that you can start to figure out where you should be folding to 3-bets (or 4-betting) more often.

3. I would suggest continuation betting a bit more often on the flop, though this will happen naturally if you tighten up pre-flop slightly. Make a thread with about four or five hands where you weren't sure if you should continuation bet on the flop.

4. A lot of your red line comes from a combination of calling 3-bets as often as you do and avoiding continuation betting as much as you probably could on the flop. Working on 1-3 above will help this a lot.

5. I actually just meant RFI the stat that you can add as one of the columns, but I don't know if you know how to do that in PT4, and I don't know how to do it either. It's not such a big deal, so it's all good. It just tells you about what percentage of hands you're open raising, and I was going to use it to see what the deal was with your MP/UTG stats.

6. You need to work on this whole 3-betting thing both for value and as a bluff. Is there a 3-betting success statistic? I'd be very interested in knowing what yours is overall (don't need it by position).

OK I will work on this and see what I can come up with.

@davisrei - The first time it was slow but steady, over 8,000 hands, the second time I don't know what happened. I think I tried to be a lot more aggressive, and it backfired. I know I lost $5 with QQ Vs AA pre and I ran a flopped set into a higher flopped set for another $5 but the rest I have no idea where it went.

OK thread is up, and here are my 3bet pre stats;

it would be interesting to see those 44 and 33 hands in the above graphic. Without seeing any stats, villain is presumably UTG and should therefore have his strongest range. Going back to the answer Luco gave above that would make it a better proposition to set mine as he is more likely to pay you off when you hit your set and you are likely to be behind his hand and you want to bloat the pot taking a weak hand against a strong range.

Originally Posted by Keith

it would be interesting to see those 44 and 33 hands in the above graphic. Without seeing any stats, villain is presumably UTG and should therefore have his strongest range. Going back to the answer Luco gave above that would make it a better proposition to set mine as he is more likely to pay you off when you hit your set and you are likely to be behind his hand and you want to bloat the pot taking a weak hand against a strong range.

As in the full hand how it played out? ( 44 & 33 hand )

Not sure what you're referring to with the villain being UTG?

the 44 hand you were MP facing a raise before you .....therefore the raiser had to be UTG. It would be interesting to see what villains stats were in that situation.

Apologies for misunderstanding.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $5.30
Hero (MP): $5.33
CO: $6.46
BTN: $7.43
SB: $2.72
BB: $2.12

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 4 4

UTG raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.35, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold

Hero wins $0.27

There ya go. Not that interesting tbh haha.

do you know what his stats were . min raise UTG looks pretty fishy though

32/24/0 through 34 hands. 100% fold to 3bet, 2/2. Had folded to 1/1 cbets.

Gonna out some of this down to running badly now. Getting absolutely crushed at 2NL by the biggest fish ever.

You seem to post a fair number of hand where you play modest holdings OOP. This is more difficult at NL5. You may not get punished a lot more, but you also get into tricky situations against IP opponents who are, at least on avg., somewhat better than the ones at NL2.

Originally Posted by Arjonius

You seem to post a fair number of hand where you play modest holdings OOP. This is more difficult at NL5. You may not get punished a lot more, but you also get into tricky situations against IP opponents who are, at least on avg., somewhat better than the ones at NL2.

Yeah I know, I don't have a lot of discipline when it comes to folding. I get bored easy and then start playing speculative hands that get me into trouble. I am working on it but it's not easy haha

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Yeah I know, I don't have a lot of discipline when it comes to folding. I get bored easy and then start playing speculative hands that get me into trouble. I am working on it but it's not easy haha

If this is the issue, then it's easier than anything else in poker to fix. You don't need to be more intelligent or more creative to solve this one, you just need to be more patient.

"Poker is not a game of luck; it's a game of patience and well-timed aggression." -Chris Ferguson in some commercial.

Consider these ranges (something like what I do when FR is playing 6-handed)
UTG { 88+,AJs+,AQo+ }
MP { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

You already know how to play the blinds.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

If this is the issue, then it's easier than anything else in poker to fix. You don't need to be more intelligent or more creative to solve this one, you just need to be more patient.

"Poker is not a game of luck; it's a game of patience and well-timed aggression." -Chris Ferguson in some commercial.

Consider these ranges (something like what I do when FR is playing 6-handed)
UTG { 88+,AJs+,AQo+ }
MP { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

You already know how to play the blinds.

I think this is what I need to do. Try and set myself ranges that I will use for each position, adjusting as needed for different tables, but a range in general that I will try to follow. Cheers MMM

You could add another table if your not getting dealt enough hands.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

You could add another table if your not getting dealt enough hands.

I thought about that but I don't think I am good enough to play optimally on more than 2 tables atm. Because you don't have long to make decisions at 2 & 5NL, when I am in the middle of 2 hands, with decent hands in each of them, I find myself rushing and making wrong choices.

This is indicative of you not thinking ahead pre-flop to how your hand will hit various boards and what boards are better for Villain's range than yours.

Spend some time with equilab's equity trainer. You'll develop a more intuitive sense of your equity on various flops vs. various villains' ranges.

Then, always think about what is likely to happen on the next street before you act on this street. Your decision time will drop dramatically if you do this.

Foremost, though, you need to spend the time to develop positional ranges. If you're still playing a single range from all positions, then your notion of "positional awareness" is rudimentary, at best.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

This is indicative of you not thinking ahead pre-flop to how your hand will hit various boards and what boards are better for Villain's range than yours.

Spend some time with equilab's equity trainer. You'll develop a more intuitive sense of your equity on various flops vs. various villains' ranges.

Then, always think about what is likely to happen on the next street before you act on this street. Your decision time will drop dramatically if you do this.

Foremost, though, you need to spend the time to develop positional ranges. If you're still playing a single range from all positions, then your notion of "positional awareness" is rudimentary, at best.

No, not at all. My range varies a lot between positions. I would never raise K9s UTG, but I would raise with it on the button for e.g. I am not that bad haha, I do understand position.

I don't know how to fully use Equilab. I have problems coming up with "random flops" and then giving villain a range of hands etc. I don't use Stove or Equilab to their maximum potential, again, this is something I am trying to work on.

@Bold - This is a big thing for me. I don't know which flops are good to cbet on if I miss, and which are not. This falls into me not being able to generate good random flops on Equilab and things like that again.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I have problems coming up with "random flops" ...

you don't have to.

Open EquiLab, go to Tools menu, choose Equity Trainer, choose one of the scenarios, click Start Training.

It'll generate as many random flops as you'll ever need.

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

you don't have to.

Open EquiLab, go to Tools menu, choose Equity Trainer, choose one of the scenarios, click Start Training.

It'll generate as many random flops as you'll ever need.

Like I said, I am not using these to their full potential. Thanking you kindly sir.

EDIT - All of the options are BB defence..... how do I do it for all positions. It also has villain with "random hands" so I have no idea of villain's range, what position they are in, what position I am in etc etc

Never used EquiLab is it free?

Board texture is something i struggled with for a while also, i am a lot better at estimating how an opponents range connects with certain board textures now though.

yes its free.

PokerStrategy.com - Software: The PokerStrategy.com Equilab

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

All of the options are BB defence..... how do I do it for all positions...

Those are the Pre-Defined quizzes

If none of them suit, click the User-Defined button, and set up a scenario to your own spec.

e.g. Set up Villain with an UTG opening range and Hero with a BTN calling range, then see how Hero fares vs. UTG on whatever flop it chucks at you.

E bene?

Downloaded. Cheers for the link.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Never used EquiLab is it free?.

aye

'tis like 'Stove on Steroids

check it out

EDIT: PS - I do not work for PokerStrategy.com, mmmm'K?

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

Those are the Pre-Defined quizzes

If none of them suit, click the User-Defined button, and set up a scenario to your own spec.

e.g. Set up Villain with an UTG opening range and Hero with a BTN calling range, then see how Hero fares vs. UTG on whatever flop it chucks at you.

E bene?

Nice one, didn't see the drop-down list on the left. Much easier now.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I don't know which flops are good to cbet on if I miss, and which are not.

dunno if you are doing this already, but it might help if you categorize flops into
* Dry,
* Wet,
* Paired,
* Ace-High,
* etc.

(rather than freaking yerself out over the 19,600 different possible combinations) and do some work on how different ranges interact with each of these

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

dunno if you are doing this already, but it might help if you categorize flops into
* Dry,
* Wet,
* Paired,
* Ace-High,
* etc.

(rather than freaking yerself out over the 19,600 different possible combinations) and do some work on how different ranges interact with each of these

No I wasn't doing that and yes it does help.

@Bold - This is a big thing for me. I don't know which flops are good to cbet on if I miss, and which are not. This falls into me not being able to generate good random flops on Equilab and things like that again.

Some good flops to cbet bluff on are dry A high or K or Q high flops. For example A82 rainbow or K22 rainbow. You rep AK or AQ. Your opponent won't call with a draw because there are no draws.

Of course you also have to look at who you cbet bluff against.

Originally Posted by daviddem

Some good flops to cbet bluff on are dry A high or K or Q high flops. For example A82 rainbow or K22 rainbow. You rep AK or AQ. Your opponent won't call with a draw because there are no draws.

Of course you also have to look at who you cbet bluff against.

Yeah I understand cbetting on really dry flops it's the K86tt boards that I am unsure of.

u shouldn't be surprised to learn that there are a bunch of articles by spoonitnow on cBetting here:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...pm-123008.html

but mebbe you oughta start a cBetting thread like your calling 3Bets thread if u want something more specific?

Yeah I will do that at some point. Think I need to work on one thing at a time and I will start with defining my ranges for each position, both calling and raising, then move on from there.

Thanks for all the help in this thread everyone, much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Yeah I understand cbetting on really dry flops it's the K86tt boards that I am unsure of.

K86tt is still relatively dry vs a tight opponent. Much wetter vs a loose one.

Just a general thought about SC's in MP ( 6 Max ) ...are we happy to include hands like 87s/98s/T9s in our MP calling range with an UTG villain of 20/18 or are we best just folding them? Does it help if we think we might get another call from either blinds or button?

Just a hint: take a look at your 2nl database, and check your profit by hand types (big pair, big ace, small pairs, sc's etc).

FWIW, I don't call raises with SC's. I open raise with them in LP if the blinds/button are tight, or I limp behind in multiway limped pots.

If a villain has a very tight UTG range and i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine, i wouldn't call from MP though because there are too many players to act behind who could squeeze us out of the pot pre-flop.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

If a villain has a very tight UTG range and i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine, i wouldn't call from MP though because there are too many players to act behind who could squeeze us out of the pot pre-flop.

Hmm, OK. Is it worth considering squeeze plays at 2 & 5NL or should I just take them out of my range now?

The difference between SC's and small PP's is that with a PP you flop a set or not, which clearly determines whether you continue or not. With SC's you mostly flop draws, which may well end up costing you more money if you keep chasing or unsuccessfully try to semi-bluff with them.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Just a general thought about SC's in MP ( 6 Max ) ...are we happy to include hands like 87s/98s/T9s in our MP calling range with an UTG villain of 20/18 or are we best just folding them? Does it help if we think we might get another call from either blinds or button?

I see what you're saying. Usually you call with these hands when there are already some callers in the pot to give you the implied odds. You're asking if you can call with the expectation of others overcalling that could give you the odds you need. Even if you had a couple of whales to your left you're still OOP on the flop and I just don't think SC calls in MP are going to work often enough to be +EV.

The others behind you may call, they may fold, they may raise. You can guess, but you'll never know.

Re squeezing: In order for a squeeze to work your hand has to be ahead of their continuing range so you need someone with a lower fold to 3bet% than is usual at the micros (i.e. you need a fish), but don't drop it from your repertoire altogether.

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

I see what you're saying. Usually you call with these hands when there are already some callers in the pot to give you the implied odds. You're asking if you can call with the expectation of others overcalling that could give you the odds you need. Even if you had a couple of whales to your left you're still OOP on the flop and I just don't think SC calls in MP are going to work often enough to be +EV.

The others behind you may call, they may fold, they may raise. You can guess, but you'll never know.

Re squeezing: In order for a squeeze to work your hand has to be ahead of their continuing range so you need someone with a lower fold to 3bet% than is usual at the micros (i.e. you need a fish), but don't drop it from your repertoire altogether.

Thanks Luco, really good post.

@Bold - I wasn't talking about me squeezing, I was talking about the possibility of 2NL & 5NL players even knowing what a squeeze is, never mind executing it. For e.g, if I raised in CO and Button called, would a typical 2 or 5NL villain in the blinds be thinking of squeezing opportunities?

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Hmm, OK. Is it worth considering squeeze plays at 2 & 5NL or should I just take them out of my range now?

I'd probably squeeze at 5nl. You have to pick your spots though and don't be doing it that frequently that it become obvious that's what your doing.

For example;

Lets say your in the BB with A4s and a guy who's been stealing a lot from the CO opens, he gets flatted by the BTN this would typically be a good squeeze spot, because the CO has a weak range and is going to be folding a lot and we can assume the BTN has a somewhat weak range as well and will be folding a fair amount of the time.

We also have an ace blocker which weakens there ranges, they now have less combos of the best hands they would be continuing with to a 3bet squeeze. Couple that with a tight image you have plenty of FE providing they aren't complete stations that never fold to 3bet.

But you should have worked that out already before you decide that squeezing would be a good strategy. You may not be able to squeeze on every table you play on at 5nl just look for good spots and don't pass them up when you see one.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Thanks Luco, really good post.

@Bold - I wasn't talking about me squeezing, I was talking about the possibility of 2NL & 5NL players even knowing what a squeeze is, never mind executing it. For e.g, if I raised in CO and Button called, would a typical 2 or 5NL villain in the blinds be thinking of squeezing opportunities?

Yeah you don't see many squeeze plays at $2nl & $5nl. If someone 3balls I'd pause and think very hard before reading it as a squeeze. The guys who 3bet light stick out like a sore thumb.

Actually my last post was more about driving out players/value 3betting than actual squeezing so just ignore that last bit

Thanks lads, some really good posts in this thread.

Do we have the same thoughts about calling in MP with Suited A's? Do we call UTG's raise or fold again? Also, medium PP's ( 77-99 )....if UTG raises do we call or do we 3bet?

Fold A rag suited in mp against pretty much anyone.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

If this is the issue, then it's easier than anything else in poker to fix. You don't need to be more intelligent or more creative to solve this one, you just need to be more patient.

"Poker is not a game of luck; it's a game of patience and well-timed aggression." -Chris Ferguson in some commercial.

Consider these ranges (something like what I do when FR is playing 6-handed)
UTG { 88+,AJs+,AQo+ }
MP { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

You already know how to play the blinds.

Is this your open raising range? If so, how do you adjust it to a calling range/3betting range or can you only do that once you know the table dynamics?