10NL KK vs nit 3bet pre

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP+1: $7.92
CO: $9.05
BTN: $4.79
SB: $6.35
BB: $11.79
UTG: $10.10
Hero (UTG+1): $11.80
MP: $10.71

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K K

fold, Hero raises to $0.40, MP raises to $1.20, MP+1 calls $1.20, fold, fold, fold, fold,Hero ?

Hero is 15/12 AFq 40 with 4% 3bet and 82% fold to 3bet
MP is 9/8 AFq 9 over 181 hands. his 3bet stat is 3% and fold to 3bet 100%
MP1 is 35/5 AFq 63 over 35 hands. his 3bet is 0 and fold to 3bet 0

as far as i have seen MP playing he seems very tight and i doubt he would raise me w/ anything else but KK+ when we are in this positions and even if he is ,if i 4bet i am pretty sure he would fold all AK, QQ and shove me KK+ vs which my equity is somethink like 20%.

on the other hand, i put MP1 on TT-QQ,AK and we probably call my 4bet with all of his range.

as i see it i have 2 options:
1- i 4bet shove and get called by KK+ and MP1 TT-QQ,AK , in which case my equity vs theyr range is 19% so it would be -EV
i 4bet shove and fold MP and get called by MP1 w/ TT-QQ,AK w/ 77% which is +EV for sure

2- i flat pre and reevaluate on flop

i f i were just vs MP i would just flat pre, but since MP1 is on the pot, what do you think is the best EV option in spots like this?

flat its not close, keeping the fish in the pot is indescribably important

Originally Posted by bikes

flat its not close, keeping the fish in the pot is indescribably important

How would you play on a Axx rainbow flop? I guess cbet is standard, but how big and how would yo react to a raise?

I'm asking this, because I often find myself in similar situations and get really scared with KK on a Ahigh board.

would certainly not lead into 2 people one of them being the pfr on Axx

would check and evaluate a lot of things, including timing and bet sizing.

I think flatting is horrible, but I know shit. I'm just posting so I'm informed of more posts in this thread, because I really want to see what others say about flat calling this.

Fwiw, I 4bet to $4. I don't think villain only has KK+, he has QQ and AK too, and stacks off pre with these at least some of the time, while fish drools with AQ and JJ, possibly worse.

If we flat, I'm happy to stack off on any non ace flop, while I probably c/f when the ace falls.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Fwiw, I 4bet to $4.

Why would you want to chase out the fish? He's adding so much dead $$$ to the pot that it's more than worth it to flat and then get it in on safe flops.

What makes you so sure the fish folds to a 4bet? He likes his hand enough to call a 3bet between two raisers, and he's a fish. Do you think he folds JJ and AQ when we squeeze? A fish thinks AQ vs KK stacked off pre is a cooler. I'm 4betting for value against both pfr's QQ+ AK and fish's TT+ AQ+. Yes,sometimes we get two folds when we 4bet, but there's a decent amount of dead money to steal, and by flatting we just let them fold out their missed AK etc when we could've got them in pre.

I understand why flatting is +ev, I just don't think it's as +ev as 4betting. I'm certainly interested to hear arguments in favour of flatting though.

What do you think is gonna go through that fish's mind when he sees you 4bet to around 2/3 of his stack?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I think flatting is horrible, but I know shit. I'm just posting so I'm informed of more posts in this thread, because I really want to see what others say about flat calling this.

Fwiw, I 4bet to $4. I don't think villain only has KK+, he has QQ and AK too, and stacks off pre with these at least some of the time, while fish drools with AQ and JJ, possibly worse.

If we flat, I'm happy to stack off on any non ace flop, while I probably c/f when the ace falls.

if you were MP, would you call, w/ QQ,AK a 4bet or a 4bet shove vs a UTG+1 opp w/ my stats with MP1 still acting after you ?
what can i shove or 4bet and you beat w/ QQ,AK? at best these hands are at the bottom of my range and the rest dominate you and with MP1 already called a 3bet, if you were MP you'd have to think he could hold some of your outs and so your chances drop.
to flat/call 4bet/shove here as MP w/QQ , AK you must be spewy, but his stats and the fact that he hasnt done anything weird in 181 hands, makes me think that he only continues with KK+ over my 4bet and i get nothing by 4betting vs him like that, cause he folds all worse and calls/shoves only better.
vs just MP1 i would always 4bet here cause he will call with worse.

this my dilema, MP1 will call with worse, but MP never and if MP shoves i have to fold 100%, or if i shove and MP calls i am behind 100% of times.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

What do you think is gonna go through that fish's mind when he sees you 4bet to around 2/3 of his stack?

The only two things he thinks about are the cards in front of him. An ace. A queen. He'll probably flat call and find a fold on the flop when he whiffs. Not a lot goes through the mind of a fish, compared to the mind of a shark. He's not putting us on a realistic range, he's "soul reading" us and putting us on a hand he has a good chance against. If he has AK, he puts us on QQ. If he has JJ, he puts us on AK. Fish stack off all day long with half decent hands like AQ, they do not understand that your 4bet means AQ is in terrible shape.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

if you were MP, would you call, w/ QQ,AK a 4bet or a 4bet shove vs a UTG+1 opp w/ my stats with MP1 still acting after you ?
what can i shove or 4bet and you beat w/ QQ,AK? at best these hands are at the bottom of my range and the rest dominate you and with MP1 already called a 3bet, if you were MP you'd have to think he could hold some of your outs and so your chances drop.
to flat/call 4bet/shove here as MP w/QQ , AK you must be spewy, but his stats and the fact that he hasnt done anything weird in 181 hands, makes me think that he only continues with KK+ over my 4bet and i get nothing by 4betting vs him like that, cause he folds all worse and calls/shoves only better.
vs just MP1 i would always 4bet here cause he will call with worse.

this my dilema, MP1 will call with worse, but MP never and if MP shoves i have to fold 100%, or if i shove and MP calls i am behind 100% of times.

If I was MP, with his stats, I'm likely folding out AQ- JJ-, meaning I like my QQ+ AK enough to get it in. I'd give you a squeeze range of TT+ AQ+, assuming you're looking for more value from the fish and trying to force the dangerous player to stand aside. The squeeze does not mean you have KK+. You're assuming he never makes mistakes.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

The only two things he thinks about are the cards in front of him.

...and the size of your bet.

He thinks "I can't call $4 or $5 with this hand" more than he gets spastic over AQ or AJ. But by flat calling you're helping him to feel safe to continue on later streets and maybe put his stack in when his AQo connects with a Q high flop.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

...and the size of your bet.

He thinks "I can't call $4 or $5 with this hand" more than he gets spastic over AQ or AJ. But by flat calling you're helping him to feel safe to continue on later streets and maybe put his stack in when his AQo connects with a Q high flop.

This is where we disagree. I just don't see the fish folding AQ+ JJ+, and he tanks his time with TT and AJs, sometimes getting it in. Yesterday I stacked some idiot who was holding A9s at 10nl FR, he hit hard to crush my QQ. He was tighter than this fish.

No-one does what you expect them to

4bing to $4 is pretty dumb sizing as well

Why? I choose this size because it's roughly 3.5x the 3bet, and easy to get stacks in on flop.

MP has a AFq of 9 over 181 hands, even if he just played 17 hands in that 181, 16 he was PFR and his Afq is 9, so he is not agrro at all, that makes me think he'd flat my UTG+1 open with AK,QQ and like i said even if 3bet these, he will to a 4bet when UTG+1 4bet in 2opps. i would rather 4bet AK to about 2.5-3$ as a bluff, AA for value and flat QQ,KK.

would flat AA for sure. thats an even easier flat than KK. would 4b/call AK and QQ tho

if i were to 4b which i prolly would not do i'd be 4bing to 2.4

i can see why you say to 4bet AK,QQ but i cant see why i'd call a 5bet shove from MP, a guy like that gives me the impression that he will 5bet KK+ always and anything else to rare to make it a call. our AK, QQ vs his KK+ 5bet range has only 20% at best and even with that money in the pot i dont see the odds for calling. for us to call a 5bet we need MP to do it with at least AK,KK+ always.

this is the way i see it, i aint contradicting you, but pls make me understand why 4bet/call QQ,AK

@Razvan
The 5b range you gave villain is probably too tight. Even the nittiest of nits would usually 3bet AK, QQ+. And if he 5bets QQ+, AK we still have ~40% equity with QQ and AK making it a very easy 4bet/call.

@ Ongbonga
The 4bet size you mentioned is much too large. Even if we choose a much smaller 4bet size we can get stacks in by the river. Choosing this sizing would also allow our bluffs to be much cheaper, have villains think that they're priced in to call, or think that they have fold equity when they shove as a bluff etc.

Thanks ColdDecked. Obviously I need to look at my 4bet sizing, up until now I've been going around x3 and adding more if there's more people in the hand.

Bikes, I'm not sure why you thinks it's dumb. You know, it's the BC and we're all learning here, you shouldn't be surprised when someone isn't as brilliant as you are. No-one ever told me how much to 4bet and 5bet to, I just kind of have to figure these things out as I go along. And besides, it wouldn't be dumb if either of these two villains shove over, which is what I'm hoping to induce with such a large 4bet. At 10nl, this will happen a reasonable % of the time. You're calling me dumb for trying to maximise my value. I might not be doing it perfectly, but it's what my goal is. I don't think my goal is dumb.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

it wouldn't be dumb if either of these two villains shove over, which is what I'm hoping to induce with such a large 4bet. At 10nl, this will happen a reasonable % of the time. You're calling me dumb for trying to maximise my value. I might not be doing it perfectly, but it's what my goal is. I don't think my goal is dumb.

lol

Jim Carrey in the Mask. Smokin'. That's lol.

flatting pre is easily the best option.

1. MP's range is obviously tight, given that we are fairly tight and that he is raising our UTG+1 range from MP. therefore his range is likely QQ+/AK.

2. Given the fact he may even be 3b folding QQ/AK and we have KK. It seems kind of stupid to then 4b KK given his likely continuing range is KK+. I'm not saying he is 100% 3b folding QQ/AK obv coz we dont have any significant reads. If we know that MP is felting QQ+AK in this spot then it's much better/easier to 4b (if it's you vs him, but still other factors to take into consideration when it's you, him and other villains.)

3. Given MP3 is a likley fish and his range is pretty wide including lots of PP's and broadway hands, then it's obviously more +$$ to flat pre. as he may stack of 77 post flop on a 224 board but might not stack off pre when we 4b and mp shoves or something and equally the same with say KT might not felt pre but would on a T72 board.

4. 4b sizing if you do 4b is important and making it $4 is totally retarded for many reasons.
a) how often do you make it $4 with any bluffs in your range?
b) how expensive are you making it for yourself in terms of bb if you are ever bluffing?
c) when MP jams over $4, do you ever expect him to be reblufing?
e) when mp jams over with AA does he ever expect you to fold anything that you 4b to $4 with?

obviously, in a UTG+1 vs MP spot, there are going to be few if any bluffs ever here, but we need to balance our 4b sizing so that we can bluff both 3b/4b bluffs in other spots say CO vs BU or BvB.

5. It still would be dumb onga if they both shoved over, becuase they would never be showing any bluffs ever - therefore they were both calling a shove or reshoving if you made it 2.8 or similar. it may actually increase the frequency that both or one of these guys shows up with something weaker than KK if you did actually 4b to something small.

6. you are not maximising the value at all onga. you are actually decreasing the value. given that a slimmer range will call the shove/reshove when you make your 4b sizing so big. If you make it smaller you may induce other hands to reship, ones that would fold to the retarded 4b size, equally you may get some hands to call the 4b that otherwise would have folded as it looks like they are getting good odds and they may make even bigger dumb mistakes post flop.

I'm not a very good writer so some of my points might be jumbled.

Basically you can make both villains make more mistakes vs your specific hand here post flop if you just call, MP1 to the greatest extent, MP2 to a lesser extent.

That's the first post actually taking the time to explain why flatting is good, and why my 4b size is not good. It helps not just me but anyone else who doesn't play this hand optimally to see a well thought out post, rather than "dumb sizing" and "lol" type posts. Thanks for that post. I'm here to learn, I don't mind being called dumb and retarded, so long as someone explains why.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

That's the first post actually taking the time to explain why flatting is good, and why my 4b size is not good. It helps not just me but anyone else who doesn't play this hand optimally to see a well thought out post, rather than "dumb sizing" and "lol" type posts. Thanks for that post. I'm here to learn, I don't mind being called dumb and retarded, so long as someone explains why.

Think simple. If villain is the type that wants to get it in preflop with AQ+, QQ+, he really won't care about your size, its getting in anyway.
If villain is some nitty scared guy, who is able to fold AQ, AK, QQ pre...then you definitely don't want to scare him out of the pot. 4betting for something like 2x is great here.

Originally Posted by lolpwnt

make both villains make more mistakes

That's the whole name of the game.
When you get ready to play your hand think about how your opponent will react.
Will my actions cause him to play perfectly against my hand or will my action induce a mistake that I can make $$$$$$$$$$$$$ from?

Not sure why we would ever wanna flat here. We have KK vs a nit with 3b of 3% (he's not bluffing) and a fish that's just clicking buttons (he's rarely folding his suited hand to a small 4b). I'd say we're about 90% sure at least one of them puts their stack in.