[5NL] To call or not to call?

OK, this is a thread for when I have been 3bet and I am wondering whether or not I should be calling. I have posted up 5 hands;

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): $5.18
MP: $6.81
CO: $7.79
BTN: $4.31
SB: $5.96
BB: $7.15

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J T

Hero raises to $0.15, fold, CO raises to $0.35, fold, fold, fold, Hero ???

Villain was 35/26/5 through 147 hands. Villain cbet 50% of the time, 8/16.

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): $5.07
CO: $7.86
BTN: $4.37
SB: $5.83
BB: $6.93

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J Q

Hero raises to $0.15, CO raises to $0.25, fold, SB calls $0.23, fold, Hero ???

CO is same villain as above.

SB - 17/8/3 through 387 hands. Folded to 3bets 82% of the time, 9/11. Folded to cbets 60% of the time, 3/5.

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $13.10
BB: $12.43
UTG: $19.57
MP: $9.39
Hero (CO): $5.00
BTN: $5.43

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has A 5

fold, MP raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, BTN raises to $0.65, fold, fold, MP calls $0.50, Hero ???

MP - 34/15/3 through 97 hands. Folded to 3bets 33% of the time, 1/3. Folded to cbets 67% of the time, 4/6.

Button - 14/11/5 through 390 hands. Cbet 53% of the time, 8/15.

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $5.66
BB: $5.07
UTG: $18.67
MP: $12.04
CO: $2.00
Hero (BTN): $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has T J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, SB raises to $0.50, fold, Hero ???

Villain was 34/29/8 through 122 hands. Cbet 67% of the time, 8/12. I did have a note that I had caught villain 3bet bluffing from the blinds.

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): $5.00
BTN: $12.55
SB: $8.00
BB: $5.00
UTG: $11.93
MP: $18.38

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has A 7

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.45, Hero ???

Villain was 32/24/12 through 60 hands. 67% cbet, 4/6. Had note that villain had 3bet a button raise, in the blinds, with 86s.

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Thoughts and views much appreciated.

1. fold initially, and as played, also fold. I'm not enough of an action junkie to open this modest hand first to act, even 6 handed. Having opened and facing a 3bet, I'm also not keen enough to put more money in the pot, esp. OOP.

2. I call because it's too cheap not to. But I'm not keen on my chances

3 I fold initially, and don't even consider calling as played.

Seriously with a grain of salt, here, since I play FR, not 6-max.

1st hand: JTs UTG is an EZ fold for me. I would open-raise or call a raise with JTs from HJ, CO, BU, SB, BB. So at 6-max... any position except UTG... grain of salt...

2nd hand: I think the open is good, and a fold to 3-bet is prudent. It's going to be hard to play QJs OOP in a big pot unless you hit all or nothing. TPGK and mid pair scenarios are going to be more common and your villain is repping a range that is going to hit the same boards as you, but in a way that has you out-kicked a huge amount of the time.

3rd hand: I like the line and I would call here. A5s plays very well multi-handed and has the backing of 2 deep stack Villains to support the implied odds. Also, 3:1 on a call pre-flop.

4th hand: JTs on the BU is a great hand. EZ call w/o the note.... snap call with the note.

5th hand: Yar! Tha scalawag's a scoundrel and a thief. Tha's YER job. Methinks a 4-bet is in order, Cap'n!

Congrats on taking the initiative to make this thread.

1. Easy raise UTG with JTs, and I would consider 4-betting instead of calling out of position.

2. Really straight-forward call because of his horribly low 3-bet sizing, the SB overcall and you having a hand that hits flops well. You just have to be aware that your single pair hands on the flop aren't going to be good.

3. Fold looks good. The button has you crushed, and you aren't going to hit flops well enough to call just from implied odds.

4. I prefer calling over 4-betting here because of how well your hand plays. I would 4-bet hands like Ax and KJ.

5. This is similar to hand #4 where I would prefer to 4-bet here instead of calling.

Thanks for all the replies. Here are some of my thoughts;

Hand 1 - Interesting that I have 2 folds and one call with this hand UTG considering how well I think this hand plays post-flop. I wasn't sure about calling 3bets OOP with this hand but I am even more unsure of 4betting with it. What happens if I get 5bet shoved? I would assume insta-fold? I am interested to hear about 4bet sizing, I think in this position I would 4bet around the the $1.15 mark? Thoughts?

Hand 2 - Spoon hit the nail on the nail on the head with his thoughts. I know I can't fold because of the SB call especially, but I think I tend to call too many flop bets with hands like this not able to fold a pair to one bet and then end up folding to a second barrel on the turn.

Hand 3 - I have a big problem folding suited A's, especially in 3bet pots. I would say my UTG VPIP/PFR would be much lower if I could take out the suited A's I play. Even when a 14/11/5 3bets me, IP, I have a problem folding. I know this is a leak and I am working on it. However, in this situation, I just can't find a fold. 2 nice stacks and an easy hand to get away from on a missed flop and I find myself calling.

Hand 4 - Interested to hear why you 4bet Ax and KJ Spoon? And is that against this particular villain or in general?

Hand 5 - Again, interested as to why you would want to 4bet with this hand? I mean a 4bet would have to be around the $1.50 mark with a weak suited A? Or is this because of villains high 3bet tendencies?

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Hand 1 - Interesting that I have 2 folds and one call with this hand UTG considering how well I think this hand plays post-flop. I wasn't sure about calling 3bets OOP with this hand but I am even more unsure of 4betting with it. What happens if I get 5bet shoved? I would assume insta-fold? I am interested to hear about 4bet sizing, I think in this position I would 4bet around the the $1.15 mark? Thoughts?

In hand 1 what is your reasoning for considering a 4bet here?

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

In hand 1 what is your reasoning for considering a 4bet here?

I don't have a reasoning as I have never thought about doing it, that's why I said I was even more unsure about it. I am not sure what benefits I get from 4betting with this hand OOP.

Ah ok, well i wouldn't 4bet here. My reasoning being villain is attacking an utg open which shows a lot of strength without a unique dynamic that has been built up through a lot of 3bet/4betting preflop and his 3bet percentage is 5 if im reading those stats correctly.

So in other words if you don't have a specific and reliable read that a guys is playing back at you then if your utg open gets 3bet its usually always strength.

Another reason is we believe villain to have a very strong range in this spot so we don't expect to get many folds to a 4bet so bluffing is bad, especially when we only have blockers to a Ten and Jack. So all AA AK KK QQ combos are still out there.

He's made a small 3bet and so we can call here and setmine with a hand that can be played very aggressively postflop if we happen to flop gin. So setmining is better than bluffing in this spot.

If we think villain has a very strong range and isn't folding very much we want to be raising a strong range pretty much AA KK AK.

We probably won't see him calling too many 4bets he'll either 5bet or fold and usually 5bet giving his 3bet range and the fact he 3bet your utg open. Also if he does flat your 4bet his calling range is going to dominate your hand for example hands like AJ JJ QQ. So flopping top pair could have reverse implied odds dont know if im using that term correctly or not, but what im trying to say is you could flop say 26J rainbow and think your good only to get called 3 streets by QQ or AJ for example.

So if we 4bet and he shoves we have to fold.
If we 4bet and he calls we're crushed.

If we call we can dump all our mediocre hands and potentially stack him when we flop huge. So calling>4betting here IMO.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Ah ok, well i wouldn't 4bet here. My reasoning being villain is attacking an utg open which shows a lot of strength without a unique dynamic that has been built up through a lot of 3bet/4betting preflop and his 3bet percentage is 5 if im reading those stats correctly.

So in other words if you don't have a specific and reliable read that a guys is playing back at you then if your utg open gets 3bet its usually always strength.

Another reason is we believe villain to have a very strong range in this spot so we don't expect to get many folds to a 4bet so bluffing is bad, especially when we only have blockers to a Ten and Jack. So all AA AK KK QQ combos are still out there.

He's made a small 3bet and so we can call here and setmine with a hand that can be played very aggressively postflop if we happen to flop gin. So setmining is better than bluffing in this spot.

If we think villain has a very strong range and isn't folding very much we want to be raising a strong range pretty much AA KK AK.

We probably won't see him calling too many 4bets he'll either 5bet or fold and usually 5bet giving his 3bet range and the fact he 3bet your utg open. Also if he does flat your 4bet his calling range is going to dominate your hand for example hands like AJ JJ QQ. So flopping top pair could have reverse implied odds dont know if im using that term correctly or not, but what im trying to say is you could flop say 26J rainbow and think your good only to get called 3 streets by QQ or AJ for example.

So if we 4bet and he shoves we have to fold.
If we 4bet and he calls we're crushed.

If we call we can dump all our mediocre hands and potentially stack him when we flop huge. So calling>4betting here IMO.

Really good post, detailed information. Thanks.

EDIT - Would be much easier if there was a like button just to show I had taken the time to read your reply haha

I might make a post explaining some basics of deciding on a 3-betting range later since I don't think I've ever done so.

hand 1 i call because his 3bet is undersized, and our hand flops really well. would be nice to have some idea of where villain's weaknesses are postflop and how we are planning to exploit them though.

hand 2 i call for the same reasons. i don't mind calling and C/F'ing almost every flop we don't make an 8+ out draw or TP when our pot odds are this good.

hand 3 i'd fold to the open raise, and now fold to the 3b

hand 4 i'd open smaller and now call because we have position and a hand which has great potential. plus we have an indication villain's range is going to have weak spots which we can exploit postflop (because he has aggro stats and has been caught bluffing in this spot). just be prepared to float some flops or raise his CB's with backdoor draws occasionally.

hand 5 i fold quite happily


edit: after reading over others' responses i should say that there are times when i've advocated folding where 4betting may be better. i ignored that possibility because it's probably not that commonly applicable in these games, and i assumed that your main leak was calling too many 3bets.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am interested to hear about 4bet sizing

I don't think you need to 4Bet to the same multiples as with your 3Betting - 2x - 2.5x usually does the job

Originally Posted by DoubleJ

I don't think you need to 4Bet to the same multiples as with your 3Betting - 2x - 2.5x usually does the job

A 4bet min raise? Surely not?

2x isn't minraising for a start.

Open raise to 15cents, 3bet to 45cents, 4bet to 90cents. Min raise would be 45+(45-15) = 75. 2.5x would be to $1.12

The difference with 4betting is that a smaller multiplier still gets in a lot of your stack. For example, if you 4bet 2.5x here in the 5NL example you'd have ~22% of your stack in preflop, so a pot of ~$2.40 on the flop and only $3.88 in your stack which is really easy to get in over two streets.

Originally Posted by Pascal

2x isn't minraising for a start.

Open raise to 15cents, 3bet to 45cents, 4bet to 90cents. Min raise would be 45+(45-15) = 75. 2.5x would be to $1.12

The difference with 4betting is that a smaller multiplier still gets in a lot of your stack. For example, if you 4bet 2.5x here in the 5NL example you'd have ~22% of your stack in preflop, so a pot of ~$2.40 on the flop and only $3.88 in your stack which is really easy to get in over two streets.

Hold on. 2 x 0.45 = 0.90. How is that not a min raise? He 3bet to 0.45 and it would cost him 0.45 to call the 4bet. That's a min raise? I don't understand why you -15 in your first sum.

Initial Raise = 15 cents
3bet = 45 cents

Minimum raise is 3bet + (3bet - Initial Raise). aka the difference between the 3bet and the initial raise on top of the 3bet.

For post flop:

Initial Bet
Raise

Raise + (Raise - Initial Bet)

Some casinos might have the rule as double but anywhere you play online will (as far as I know) have these rules

Suppose Villain raises to $0.04 before the flop in a 2nl game. A call would have been $0.02, so the raise was $0.02 on top of the original $0.02 for a call.

It folds to you. A call would be $0.04. Your opponent's raise amount was $0.02, so that's the minimum amount that you can raise. This means that for you, a minraise would be to $0.06.

Minraising and raising to 2x aren't always the same thing.