So, yeah. Stud 8 on Full Tilt is SOFT

Soft may actually be an understatement.

I usually only play NL Hold'em MTTs, but lately I've been running a few tables of Stud 8 to break the monotony of the early stages and keep my mind focused on Poker.

Started out playing the 5c/10c tables, beating them easily. I was making about 1$ per hour per table, which is an incredibly small amount relative to my bankroll... I figured stepping up a level or two was in order, if only to start playing for money I actually cared about.

Took a seat at a 25/50c table, expecting a somewhat higher quality of opponents, tighter play, etc. Nope. I almost get the impression that these players are hellbent on spewing their chips away in retarded fashion. In no particular order, I've seen players:

- Call bets, or even bet out, when their obvious low hand hits a brick on 4th street
- Actually try to bluff when they miss their low draw on 7 street, even when the pot is too large to merit a fold from even a marginal hand
- Constantly play horrible starting hands, like two to an 8 low with a Jack or some shit
- Call me down with one pair and an inferior low when my board is 2-4-5-A

I could easily go on. This game is just way too soft. Sure, I've played for only a relatively short amount of time at this level - maybe 20 hours at 2-3 tables total - but, jesus. It's just not statistically possible for me to be running this good. The players suck. And I'm not one to throw that word around.

So, even if you're fairly new to this game, whoever you may be, you can beat this game with your eyes closed. Play ABC poker, mix in a little deception here and there... Hell, just read TLR's noob guide and you should be good.

It's almost as though you're doing yourself a disservice by not playing this game.

No, I'm not exaggerating. I think I'd even welcome some competition from some non-shitty players to be honest.

So here's my challenge to you non-Stud-8 players.
If you can spare 10$ from your bankroll for a nice change of pace, grab a seat at one of these tables. Sit for an hour or two, play decent poker. Then come post here and let us all know how you did - time played and money won/lost. EZ game.

I think the stud tables at full tilt are softer then those on stars, I do find a skill level change between the $2/4 and the $3/6 on FT, but I played relatively little $3/$6

Meh, I should probably take a half-step back from those rather cocky comments above. Yes, the tables are ridic soft, and I witness, with surprising regularity, idiotic plays as mentioned. But to make any decent scratch you need to play fairly solid poker. After having played another few thousand hands my winrate evened out a bit, still making a profit but it's much more of a grind. Just FYI.

Stud/8 is a high variance game, you gotta go with the swings

Hey, Pennywizwe,

I joined this forum as I wanted to reply to your post. I keep telling players on my regular forum that there is money to be made from Stud-8 (and 7- and 8-Game), though for me it's the $1-$3 MTT and SnG games on Poker Stars that are profitable. I tend to play ultra-aggressive, but can adjust if need be. I have tried the low limit cash games, but have never made much progress - overall about break-even.

Would you recommend that I lay off the aggression a bit if I took $10 to to the FT cash tables? $10 is a lot for me to put up at the moment at FT, but can just about manage it, and would like to play at higher limits.

If I am in a pot I will usually be betting around 75% of the time, and will be betting on 7th street even when missing all my draws, unless I bump into a player who will call me down every time, in which case I will check on 6th and only bet on 7th if I make my hand. For tourneys this style of play has worked well for me, but would you, Pennywize, advocate a more conservative style of play for the game you recommend?

I will be taking to the tables this weekend and I wll definitely be taking up your challenge (I know - it's to non-Stud-8 players, but I'll take up the challenge anyway) and will report back here with the results.

Originally Posted by samsmoot

Hey, Pennywizwe,
Would you recommend that I lay off the aggression a bit if I took $10 to to the FT cash tables? $10 is a lot for me to put up at the moment at FT, but can just about manage it, and would like to play at higher limits.

If I am in a pot I will usually be betting around 75% of the time, and will be betting on 7th street even when missing all my draws, unless I bump into a player who will call me down every time, in which case I will check on 6th and only bet on 7th if I make my hand. For tourneys this style of play has worked well for me, but would you, Pennywize, advocate a more conservative style of play for the game you recommend?

Hey, welcome samsmoot, glad my post sucked you in to FTR (you won't be able to leave I'm afraid...)

For starters, I should point out that TLR is probably our site's best Stud 8 player, and you should read his treatise on the subject (it is stickied in this forum) before going any further. I'd also suggest you read Todd Brunson's section on Stud 8 in the new Super System book. I learned quite a bit from these two and I originally thought myself as somewhat of a veteran, having played Stud 8 on and off (well. mostly off for about 6 years.

As for your questions. Betting 75% of the time across the board seems pretty spewy. Generally speaking, you want to bet when you have a made hand and while others are still drawing; while your low draw is significantly better than any one else's, and there are no visible high hands in the pot with you; and bluff only if your board would lead others to believe you have a monster/made hand when you in fact have nothing. Obviously I am simplifying things quite a bit, but it should be fairly clear that those situations don't constitute 75% of all hands and betting rounds.

Also, don't bet on 7 street with no hand, as a rational opponent will realize that they still have the incentive to call with even marginal holdings. This changes however if your opponent is weak/stupid/playing badly, or if they missed their draw, in which case you should be winning anyway.

Oh, and as for tournament play - in the mid/late stages of these tourneys, your board is of utmost importance and should dictate your betting strategy a good portion of the time. Your perceived hand, if greater than your opponent's holdings, will get them to fold more often than not. When the bring-ins and antes are high, it's crucial to pick up these pots on a fairly regular basis.

At any rate - do read those two sources I mentioned (I'll edit this post with links to both - though I may have trouble finding the online version of Todd Bruson's piece) as I think they will prove very beneficial.

Good luck on your challenge. I would suggest starting out at the 0.05/0.10 or 0.10/0.20 to get your feet wet and only move up if you feel comfortable (contrary to what has been suggested above...)

Yes, probably here for a bit, lots to read on mixed games by the looks of it.

Thanks for the tips, and I would find it helpful if you would put up the link to TB's piece on Stud-8 - I had the page up yesterday, but got no idea where it came from. Will check my history or go to the Doyle's site, which is where I think it is if you cannot find the link yourself.


Cheers, Pennywize, see you around.


P.S. Will be back on this thread on Sunday to report my success (or failure).

Welcome to FTR, hope you will stick around

Betting 75% of the hands seems too high, unless you play very tight starting strategy, one important aspect of stud (or any limit game for that matter) is pot control, if you build a big pot early you give other players correct odds to chase you on later streets since the pot is too big to fold.
Especially in low buy in games when the pot is multiway you sometimes have to call on your draws and minimze your losses if you miss

Regarding betting on 7th street, it is generally a mistake to fold on 7th to a single bet when you close the action unless you absolutly have no shot of even remotely to win 1/2 the pot (for example no low and you are beat by the board), however at low buy ins players makes all sorts of mistakes, and this is one of them, you only need to get this play to work once in a while (usually less then 1 in 5) to make a profit, so on low buy in games it is often correct to do so, once you start to move up in buy ins you need to really select your spots to do so (for example when it is clear that someone is chasing a low and you may get him to fold A high or low pair and those hands are better then yours)

Todd's brunson's piece in super system II is good, and it is worth reading, however I think the must read for stud 8 players is Ray Zee's book on stud 8 (High Low split poker for advanced players)

Thanks for the comments,TLR.

Todd's piece is excellent, and I have almost finished reading it. I got Ray Zee's book about a month ago, read it once then came second in a $1 Poker Stars Stud-8 MTT for over $37. Questions on Stud-8 are sometimes answered by Mr Zee himself on the forum associated with his book publisher.

I do choose my starting hands very carefully most of the time, and if I hit good on fourth street I tend to bet like a maniac. Not always, but I hate to see a street not bet, and I find my recent style of play can often intimidate opponents. They can see that once I start I just won't stop, and know that they are going to have to call a hell of a lot of bets if they get involved. I am playing against mainly weak players at this level, and hate it if I am not the most aggressive player at the table (though I can and do adjust when necessary). I still have a lot to learn about the game, so I am trying different approaches, but like a nutter is how I like to play, at least in a tourney.

Did not play the cash game on Tilt until Sunday, and I got bored. Not enough bad players (or me not good enough), and tables kept getting short handed. Bought in for $5 in the 10/20c and lost a dollar after an hour and a half. Will give the 25/50c a go at some point.

hey sams,

GJ on the MTT performance. I'd probably play more if Full Tilt offered em, but as it stands I might get in two or three per month. Sounds like Stars is the place to be for micro Stud 8 MTTs. What times do they run them? I'd play anything up to 11$.

The dollar buy-in starts around 01.30 GMT, so about 20.30 server time. Be prepared for a 7 hour sit-down on a Saturday.

The 1-3 table SnGs at $1-3 are good, 8-Game and 5-Card draw included. Anything above that is too rich for me at present.

t

Originally Posted by TLR

Stud/8 is a high variance game, you gotta go with the swings

QFT. ^^

Hey TLR. Hows things???