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setting first 5 in regular ofc

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  1. #1
    Eric's Avatar
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    Default setting first 5 in regular ofc

    This is the thread we'll use to discuss the strategy behind setting the first 5 cards.
    Last edited by Eric; 02-26-2014 at 01:56 PM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Playing a small pair + lowest-fully-live-kicker in back >> 3-card straight or 3-card flush.

    Never break trips; always place trips on the bottom. If you have a fully live kicker, put it with the trips.

    Unless you're gambling for FL, don't break 2-pair. Place them on the bottom with no kicker.

    Setting small SD's in the mid gets me in trouble more often than not.

    Setting 2 small cards up top tends to leave me with difficult choices on later streets.
  3. #3
    Eric's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    Eric




    Wazzup (dealer)


  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Setting a 2-card FD OOP is only 27% to make a flush. The value of a pr 7's or pr 2's on the bottom is practically none.

    Setting a gutshot is about the same as setting a 3-flush.

    I'd have played it
    2 _ _
    _ _ _ _ _
    5 6 7 _ 9

    If you're convinced that it's bad to go for the GSSD, then
    2 _ _
    7 5 _ _ _
    9 6 _ _ _

    seems better than the 72s on the bottom.
  5. #5
    Eric's Avatar
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    Yeah, I set that hand wrong. More than anything else I was testing our new post buttons inside our ofc game.
  6. #6
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    Seems like I can capitalize on my opponents shoddy cards by setting this way rather than a safer AATT/Q/x. Gives me a shot at FL and still a pretty low foul chance by setting a live card on the bottom with the tens early.

    KoRnholio (dealer)




    Wazzup


  7. #7
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Yah KoRnholio... seems like an ideal hand to play for FL. If your kicker was anything besides a Q or K, though, I'd have placed it on the bottom. (Obv. if it's an A or T, then I'd have to place the boat.)

    Wazzup's hand is more interesting to me, as far as analyzing it goes.
    443 on the bottom is quite strong.
    Splitting the pair to set a 2-gap 3-card straight flush draw is also quite strong.

    The equities for drawing each hand exactly, when you set:
    1 pair + kicker HU OOP:
    12.2% -> 2-pair
    11.9% -> trips
    17.0% -> full house
    2.6% -> quads

    2-gap 3-card straight flush draw:
    24.7% -> straight (no straight flush)
    52.4% -> flush (no straight flush)
    2.6% -> straight flush

    In order to compare these, I need to calculate an EV for each hand.
    Multiply the equity of each outcome by the royalties for said outcome, and add them all up:
    1 pair + kicker HU OOP:
    12.2% (0) + 11.9% (0) + 17.0% (6) + 2.6% (10) = 128% = 1.28 royalties for EV
    2-gap 3-card straight flush draw:
    24.7% (2) + 52.4% (4) + 2.6% (15) = 2.98 royalties for EV


    The trouble with trusting these EV calc's directly is that the straight/flush draws are independent. I mean... if you draw to pairing your hand, then 2-pair or trips can increase to a full house, trips can increase to a boat... so they step up 1 to the next. Whereas if you draw to a straight, you give up on the flush and vice-versa. You will never realize that full 2.6% equity for a straight flush unless you avoid all other straights and flushes up to the last... so, in practice, the 2.6% equity in a straight flush is much lower.

    A pair-based hand still has some strength against foul on the bottom when it "stalls", whereas a FD is almost definitely a foul when it stalls.

    If we play a 3-flush and refuse to abandon the flush for another hand, then we can think of the EV as
    52.4% (4) - 47.6% (6) = -1.72 royalties for EV
    So that's a -EV strategy

    When and how we abandon that FD is complicated. If we draw one of our straight draw outs, then we need to evaluate having a 3-card FD vs a GSSD on that street, taking blockers into account. If we have an opportunity to pair that hand, we need to evaluate whether that pair saves us from foul, and if not, the odds of making 2-pair or trips.

    So playing a 3-card FD is tricky, but potentially much more EV than the pair+ kicker. Adding in the 2-gap SFD, and I think I'd split that pair of 4's and go for the more risky, skill-based play.
  8. #8
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Oh, KoRnholio is IP, so I would also set any blocked cards up top, not as a kicker.
  9. #9
    Eric's Avatar
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    Yeah, this is tough. Being in position, we see that Wazzup has no aces and no tens so setting the 2 pair in back in the hopes of getting a boat doesn't seem bad. The one thing we know for sure is that the queen goes in front.
  10. #10
    Eric's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    I'm thinking maybe it isn't good to go for it like this oop.

    Eric




    Wazzup (dealer)


  11. #11
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    givememyleg


  12. #12
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Did I set it right?

    I'm thinking maybe it isn't good to go for it like this oop.

    Eric




    Wazzup (dealer)


    very aggressive, i think i want a stronger bottom. i would probably go QQ3 / K2 or something
  13. #13
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    Did I set it right?

    givememyleg


    I'm assuming you're hu oop. I like the Q and the K. I'm not sure if all 3 of the low cards should go on the bottom or if we should set some of them elsewhere until we have more visibility.
  14. #14
    Did I set it right?

    dawgboy





    MeGrimlock (dealer)


  15. #15
    Did I set it right?

    ShiShi





    Jazzyrobby





    vince85 (dealer)


  16. #16
    Eric's Avatar
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    I think dawgboy's 2 / 7 4 / Q K set is ok. I guess the 2 could go in the middle or the front.

    Some people might put the Q and 4 on the bottom with the K in the middle.
  17. #17
    Eric's Avatar
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    I think Jazzyrobby's set is ok too.
  18. #18
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    i probably play too aggressive, but i almost always go Q up top and K in middle on hands like that, even with a weak back. if i'm in position and a lot of my outs are taken then i may change it up though.
  19. #19
    Did I set it right?

    OneByPhi (dealer)
    K K / X / K 5 2

    Wazzup
    X / T / 8 7 5 4
  20. #20
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Did I set it right?

    OneByPhi (dealer)
    K K / X / K 5 2

    Wazzup
    X / T / 8 7 5 4
    i would probably never split up trips, but especially not in this case. would have went X / 5 / K K K 2
  21. #21
    Eric's Avatar
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    I would have set it the same way as gmml. Wazzup showed the five so we don't want our 5 in back. Wazzup has no deuces so we put our 2 in back with the 3 kings.
  22. #22
    Did I set it right?

    eastsidejohnny (dealer)
    Q / 4 3 / T 9

    OneByPhi
    6 / J / 5 6 Q
  23. #23
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I think that hand is too weak to set for FL.

    I'd have set the 3-flush on the bottom.
    3/T/Q94
  24. #24
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    KoRnholio (dealer)
    X / 4 5 6 / 8 9

    Wazzup
    X / 5 / A K Q T
  25. #25
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
    Did I set it right?

    KoRnholio (dealer)
    X / 4 5 6 / 8 9

    Wazzup
    X / 5 / A K Q T
    It's unfortunate that your gutshot is lower than your opponent's, but I think it's still your best play to set the gutshot (58% IP) on the bottom.

    KoRnholio (dealer)
    X / 9 / 4 5 6 8

    Wazzup has a few options. The 3-flush is slightly higher equity to complete than a gutshot, and worth more royalties. With AKQ on the set, I see the merit in Q5/K/AT, too.
  26. #26
    Did I set it right?

    fuertedave
    3 / 4 7 / Q A

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / A 5 / 9 Q 8
  27. #27
    Did I set it right?

    fuertedave
    X / 7 K / 2 5 J

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / 8 / 6 4 3 2
  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
    Did I set it right?
    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post

    Seems like I can capitalize on my opponents shoddy cards by setting this way rather than a safer AATT/Q/x. Gives me a shot at FL and still a pretty low foul chance by setting a live card on the bottom with the tens early.

    KoRnholio (dealer)




    Wazzup


    one thing i thought when i saw this is that if you are setting the tens and Aces on separate rows why put the aces in the middle. swapping them around must reduce your chances of fouling.

    {Note from Eric: I was trying to reply to this post and I accidentally edited it instead. Sorry about that, Keith.}
    Last edited by Eric; 12-21-2013 at 03:33 PM.
  29. #29
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuertedave View Post
    Did I set it right?

    fuertedave
    3 / 4 7 / Q A

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / A 5 / 9 Q 8
    In pineapple the Q in front with the A in the middle would be standard. In regular ofc this is more risky but I still think there are a lot of players who would say to do it that way.
  30. #30
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuertedave View Post
    Did I set it right?

    fuertedave
    X / 7 K / 2 5 J

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / 8 / 6 4 3 2
    Yeah, I think that's ok for regular ofc (in pineapple the K goes in the front imo).
  31. #31
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    one thing i thought when i saw this is that if you are setting the tens and Aces on separate rows why put the aces in the middle. swapping them around must reduce your chances of fouling.
    He's going for fl. The pair of aces have a potential pair of queens beat so he can fill the middle with blanks. It is true that switching the pair of tens and the pair of aces would reduce the fouling % but it would also reduce the % of hitting fl.
  32. #32
    Did I set it right?

    KevKevKevin
    9 / 7 7 / 5 A

    Wazzup (dealer)
    2 / J 6 / A T
  33. #33
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevKevKevin View Post
    Did I set it right?

    KevKevKevin
    9 / 7 7 / 5 A

    Wazzup (dealer)
    2 / J 6 / A T
    I'd have done this:
    KevKevKevin
    X / A 5 / 7 7 9

    Always set for FL, change plans when it falls through.
    Pair + kicker on the bottom is very strong
    Ace in the middle potentially protects K's or Q's up top

    Place your kickers (9 and 5) such that if they both pair, the bottom is still best. This is because you have a back door to 2 small pair in the middle or even trip 5's if you catch trip 7's... with the 9 set to the mid, you can face complications.

    In POFC, I'd play the A up top, because the complication of having Aces up in the middle can ruin FL sets in late game.
  34. #34
    Did I set it right?

    Adiavroxos93
    8 T / Q / J A

    chrisildur87 (dealer)
    8 K / X / 4 6 6
  35. #35
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adiavroxos93 View Post
    Did I set it right?

    Adiavroxos93
    8 T / Q / J A

    chrisildur87 (dealer)
    8 K / X / 4 6 6
    I wouldn't put both the 8 and the T up front like that. Here is a more aggressive set:
    Q / A 8 / T J
  36. #36
    Did I set it right?

    daFifty (dealer)
    6 / A / 5 J A

    tbulcsu
    2 / A / 3 5 K
  37. #37
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daFifty View Post
    Did I set it right?

    daFifty (dealer)
    6 / A / 5 J A

    tbulcsu
    2 / A / 3 5 K
    If regular OFC, then I'd set it
    A / 6 / 5 J A

    A-high up top is strong, and unlikely to pair. The 3-flush is speculative, but the J is live and could help escape from a broken flush, if I don't catch a 4th by 8th street.

    ***
    If Pineapple OFC, I'd have set it
    xxx/ A A 5 / J 6

    Aces in the mid to protect a potential FL pair up top. J6 on the bottom because they're both live. 5 to the mid, because it's not live. Leave the top open for maximum flexibility as the hand develops.
  38. #38
    Did I set it right?

    newtoofcp
    Q / A A / 9 7

    Wazzup (dealer)
    2 / 8 3 / K 9
  39. #39
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoofcp View Post
    Did I set it right?

    newtoofcp
    Q / A A / 9 7

    Wazzup (dealer)
    2 / 8 3 / K 9
    I like it for pineapple. In regular ofc it is more debatable.
  40. #40
    Did I set it right?

    finotc
    X / 5 2 2 / 3 9

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / 8 6 / 4 7 A
  41. #41
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by finotc View Post
    Did I set it right?

    finotc
    X / 5 2 2 / 3 9

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / 8 6 / 4 7 A
    finotc,

    Small pairs are tricky so I'm guessing there are a lot of different opinions on this. In pine I might set this X / 3 5 / 9 2 2 but I'm not sure how I would set this in regular ofc.

    Cheers,
    Eric
  42. #42
    Did I set it right?

    TiltLikeMe
    5 / X / 3 4 5 2

    Wazzup (dealer)
    Q / 7 / Q 9 T
  43. #43
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiltLikeMe View Post
    Did I set it right?

    TiltLikeMe
    5 / X / 3 4 5 2
    If OFC, maybe. The OESD on the bottom is the strongest starting hand you can make. However, I'd argue that a 3-card OESFD is better than playing the 2 on the bottom.

    5 / 2 / 3 4 5

    ***
    In POFC, I think I'd definitely play the 3-card OESFD on the bottom and leave the top open.

    X / 5 2 / 3 4 5
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 02-12-2014 at 12:27 AM.
  44. #44
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiltLikeMe View Post
    Did I set it right?

    TiltLikeMe
    5 / X / 3 4 5 2

    Wazzup (dealer)
    Q / 7 / Q 9 T
    I wouldn't put the 5 in the front.
  45. #45
    Did I set it right?

    like2play
    4 A / 9 / 3 J

    Wazzup (dealer)
    X / T 8 / Q 7 5
  46. #46
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I would say that setting A4 up top when you're OOP is always a mistake. The reason is that it leaves the top very inflexible on later streets. Also, as all cards when you're first to act, the 4's are fully live, so there's every reason to think the 4 would have as much chance of making a pair as anything else... plus when you play the 4 early, you have 1 more draw at the pair of 4's.

    If you're not first to act, and you see 2 or 3 4's on the table, then you have every reason to believe that the 4 is less likely to pair than a random card from the deck on your next draw... even though the random card gets 1 fewer draw, since you have to wait for it.

    ***
    I'd set it like this:

    A / 4 3 / J 9
  47. #47
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I would say that setting A4 up top when you're OOP is always a mistake.
    Agreed, we only have 3 spots in front - we want to be selective there.
  48. #48
    Did I set it right?

    wanttolearnofc
    Q Q / 7 2 / T

    Creeture (dealer)
    X / 5 K / 9 9 9
  49. #49
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I would have set

    QQ / 2 / T7

    but I don't think it's too big a difference. It makes the bottom slightly stronger, and even has straight opportunities.
  50. #50
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Note: This thread is somewhat at a disadvantage by not knowing if it's pineapple or not.

    It would be nice if it could say whether it's OFC or POFC when the post is created.
  51. #51
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Note: This thread is somewhat at a disadvantage by not knowing if it's pineapple or not.

    It would be nice if it could say whether it's OFC or POFC when the post is created.
    This thread is for regular ofc. I agree it would be clearer if each post said regular ofc as well - I'll see if we can do that.
  52. #52
    Eric's Avatar
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    Actually, repeating "regular ofc" in each post would be redundant.

    I renamed this thread to "setting first 5 in regular ofc

    " so it should be less confusing now.
  53. #53
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Thanks.
  54. #54
    Eric's Avatar
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    You're welcome.
  55. #55
    Did I set it right?

    bisu25 (dealer)
    X / 3 2 / T 9 9

    ferero
    X / J / 4 3 2 A
  56. #56
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Yes, that's how I'd set it most of the time.

    Against a very aggressive opponent, I might place the 2 up top and simply rely on avoiding foul to get my points.

    I bring this up, since playing a gutshot to a wheel on the bottom is a very weak set, and your opponent has done so. It looks like your opponent is already heading for a foul, so a safe 6 points is sometimes the best option.
  57. #57
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bisu25 View Post
    Did I set it right?

    bisu25 (dealer)
    X / 3 2 / T 9 9

    ferero
    X / J / 4 3 2 A
    I agree with MMM, this is the set we use most of the time. It sucks that he has one of your deuces and one of your threes but this is still the right set imo.
  58. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I would have set

    QQ / 2 / T7

    but I don't think it's too big a difference. It makes the bottom slightly stronger, and even has straight opportunities.
    yup, ur setting makes much more sense. I didn't even know that i made a post in this forum after clicking on the button ("did i set it right?"). Just found out by accident.

    Thanks for your advice though! xD
  59. #59
    Did I set it right?

    lincolnlx
    A / 3 2 / 7 T

    Wazzup (dealer)
    A / 5 / J T 7
  60. #60
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lincolnlx View Post
    Did I set it right?

    lincolnlx
    A / 3 2 / 7 T

    Wazzup (dealer)
    A / 5 / J T 7
    Ace in the middle is typically a good idea in ofc. This is how I set it: X / A 2 3 / 7 T
  61. #61
    Did I set it right?

    ntom81
    K / 3 / Q T 5

    dj_wherelove (dealer)
    7 5 / X / 2 A A
  62. #62
    Did I set it right?

    Mouahaha
    T / 6 / 6 J 3

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    X / 7 5 / K T J
  63. #63
    Did I set it right?

    tiger689
    8 / X / 4 3 2 4

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    A / 8 / Q Q 5
  64. #64
    Did I set it right?

    tiger689
    9 / A / K J J

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    X / 8 7 / 9 9 4
  65. #65
    Did I set it right?

    chris.viox (dealer)
    X / X / X

    NutsOrNada
    X / 5 A / J Q A
  66. #66
    Did I set it right?

    TheDcake (dealer)
    8 7 / J / 6 K

    GlassJoeBot
    X / T 6 / A 6 5
  67. #67
    Did I set it right?

    funnybillypro
    X / 4 5 / K T 9

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    2 / Q 5 / A 8
  68. #68
    Did I set it right?

    Uncle_Adolf
    5 A / J / Q Q

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    3 / T / 4 4 2
  69. #69
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Pretty risky set in regular ofc. But if you set QQ up top you absolutely need to set the A in mid. I think QQ / A / J5 would be better.

    edit - oop i'd put the 5 in mid. if in position i'd put it in back since it's totally live.
    Last edited by givememyleg; 09-09-2014 at 11:10 PM.
  70. #70
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    Did I set it right?

    hardy4w
    K / A / 2 6 7

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    X / J 7 / 8 Q T
  71. #71
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    went 4 heart flush but think never king on top earli
  72. #72
    Did I set it right?

    merlinchino
    Q Q / 9 / 3 2

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    3 / J / 4 Q K
  73. #73
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by merlinchino View Post
    Did I set it right?

    merlinchino
    Q Q / 9 / 3 2

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    3 / J / 4 Q K
    I'd rather put the 9 on the bottom and the 2,3 in the mid. You can split the 2,3 and put the 9,3 on the bottom, but I don't really think there's too much advantage for that.

    With the QQ up top, you're hoping to find 2-pair in the mid and 2-pair or better on the bottom. So you want to put the 9 on the bottom for a bigger 2-pair that what you're setting up in the mid.
  74. #74
    Did I set it right?

    valadezaj
    X / 6 2 2 / 9 T

    GlassJoeBot (dealer)
    A / J / T A 5
  75. #75
    I think I have the hand comparison wrong? The bottom hand was - mine 9 9 7 10 K computer A Q 10 4 5 I had a pair I should have beaten that.

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