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SAC PINEAPPLE LEAGUE (OFFICIAL THREAD)

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  1. #1

    Default SAC PINEAPPLE LEAGUE (OFFICIAL THREAD)

    Attention: this is a test/run through ---so let's keep it light. no rush, no foul. Here are the Divisions:

    Heroes:
    Eric
    Chris
    Jim (dawgboy)
    Randy

    Villains:
    Matt
    Jim (onebyphi)
    Justin
    Jake

    Most of us know each other, but not everybody knows everyone---so I'll leave it to you guys to inform the league through this thread, or through me (personally) to link people via email or texting.

    We can start tonight---but for the FIRST LEVEL---you only need to complete matches v. the members of your own division by next Sunday. That gives you all a week to contact each opponent for a mutually convenient time to conclude your match.

    30 Hands Per Match. FL rules apply---games will continue in the event of FL on final hand(s).

    It would be great if partial games were avoided since "continuing" a match could be difficult.

    Any questions---email or text me.

    Good luck, and have fun!
  2. #2
    Game 1: OneByPhi gets by tangomecash in a game of wild swings. Results here:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?3680
  3. #3
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  4. #4
    OneByPhi gets ridiculously lucky against Megrimlock:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?3732
  5. #5
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    I made sime mistakes against dawgboy. Here's one of them:


    dawgboy



    Discard 5 2 3 5
    Eric (Dealer)



    Discard 3 K 9 T:d


    Seeing that he had 2 kings, I didn't want to show him the K on the second draw. However, if I would have placed it low instead of the 4 or J I would have had the highest flush for the back street instead of the lowest flush. I also would have gotten the scoop meaning a difference of 6 on streets instead of a difference of 1 (this cost me 5 points).
  6. #6
    Hi everyone, My name is Matt and I'm really looking forward to this league! This is a fun game to play. I have Dealt this game to some of the top known players at the WSOP. My fellow dealers and always play on our breaks. GL to you all...

    Matt
  7. #7
    OneByPhi over Bacon_TT7. Results here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?3824
  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    Hey guys,


    I just got off the phone with MeGrimlock. Please post the links to your results in this thread so it is easier for us to keep track of things. Up to this point only me and OneByPhi have been posting results so there is some confusion.


    Thanks.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Hey guys,
    Please post the links to your results in this thread so it is easier for us to keep track of things. Up to this point only me and OneByPhi have been posting results so there is some confusion.
    I got into the habit of posting results during the FTR tourney. The precedent there was that whoever wins the match has to post a link to the the results. That way, everyone in the tourney can know how it is going and anyone who wishes to can look at the hand histories and see what kinds of lines various players are taking.
  11. #11
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    Eric gets lucky at the end and beats OneByPhi by one point: http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4064
  12. #12
    OneByPhi over Dawgboy in an up-and-down struggle:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4113
  13. #13
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    OneByPhi over Dawgboy in an up-and-down struggle:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4113
    Great game! Love the back and forth.
  15. #15
    You too, dawgboy. I just managed to get lucky in the end of the game, and often in a short match, getting hot at the end is the difference-maker.
  16. #16
    We've been playing for a couple of weeks, but I have no idea what the standings are. I know the divisions are:
    Heroes:
    Eric
    Chris
    Jim (dawgboy)
    Randy

    Villains:
    Matt
    Jim (onebyphi)
    Justin
    Jake
    but I have no idea how anyone but Eric and I are doing. I think Eric is 3-1, and I am 4-1, but I am unsure about others. If people would list the results of each match, we could at least figure out the standings, but if we could post the standings in this thread and continually update them, that would be great.

    Thanks.
  17. #17
    Dawgboy over EASTSIDEJOHNNY by 45

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese.../play.php?4389
  18. #18
    Dawgboy is 3-2


    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    We've been playing for a couple of weeks, but I have no idea what the standings are. I know the divisions are:
    Heroes:
    Eric
    Chris
    Jim (dawgboy)
    Randy

    Villains:
    Matt
    Jim (onebyphi)
    Justin
    Jake
    but I have no idea how anyone but Eric and I are doing. I think Eric is 3-1, and I am 4-1, but I am unsure about others. If people would list the results of each match, we could at least figure out the standings, but if we could post the standings in this thread and continually update them, that would be great.

    Thanks.
  19. #19

    Default results

    HI everyone, looking forward to playing against some humans!!!

    Played dawgboy and got I roughed up as a welcome to the league.

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4389

    Then got as lucky against Eric as I got unlucky against dawgboy just to show that it might just all be ok

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4392


    This makes Dave 1-1

    Thanks
  20. #20
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    Hi Everyone,


    MeGrimlock gave me some information about our league tonight in GoogleTalk so I'm
    updating our thread:
    one by phi is (401) (4-1) with matches v. Eastside Johnny and Tangomecash this week


    eastside johnny is still catching up piece by piece


    Matt beat Chris today - they are both (1-3)


    Jake is (2-2), Eric and Jim are (3-2)


    I'm 2-3 unfortunately

    Cheers,
    Eric
  21. #21
    Played Justin (MeGrimlock) and although I was getting my butt kicked through 20 hands I was lucky enough to catch FL on hand 29 to pull off the 4 point win. ESJ 2-1

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese.../play.php?4446
  22. #22
    Although I was up by 117 going into the 30th hand three FL hands took us to 32 hands and help Bacon shave over 50 points to close the gap.

    dawgboy wins by 65

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese.../play.php?4483
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dawgboy View Post
    Although I was up by 117 going into the 30th hand three FL hands took us to 32 hands and help Bacon shave over 50 points to close the gap.

    dawgboy wins by 65

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese.../play.php?4483
    Oh and royal flushes are worth 25 points and they rock.
  24. #24
    OneByPhi gets ridiculously, absurdly, unbelievably lucky against eastsidejohnny to go to 5-1. Results:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4500
  25. #25

    Default Matt vs Eric

    I beat Eric today by 30... Tightly contested Match up...

    Game # 4451
  26. #26
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    Here's the game where Bacon_TT7 beat me: http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4541
  27. #27
    Eric,

    First, man, you ran bad in that game. Did you cross a black cat's path while walking under a ladder and breaking a mirror today, ?

    Second, the hand histories in the link are all screwed up (at least on my screen). I've been noticing glitches in them lately, but none as bad as this one. Hands 1, 2, 3, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, and 30 all contain at least one glitch. What's up with that?
  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Eric,

    First, man, you ran bad in that game. Did you cross a black cat's path while walking under a ladder and breaking a mirror today, ?

    Second, the hand histories in the link are all screwed up (at least on my screen). I've been noticing glitches in them lately, but none as bad as this one. Hands 1, 2, 3, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, and 30 all contain at least one glitch. What's up with that?
    Holy crap, I'll ask Alex.
  29. #29
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  30. #30
    Eric's Avatar
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    Actually, I don't see the glitches. Are some of the images missing on your screen because of a refresh issue or something? If you look at it in chrome incognito and it is still messed up then please give me a screen shot.

    Thanks.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Actually, I don't see the glitches. Are some of the images missing on your screen because of a refresh issue or something? If you look at it in chrome incognito and it is still messed up then please give me a screen shot.

    Thanks.
    Dude, sorry. Apparently this is an issue only on my cheesy laptop running Firefox. When I look at it on my PC, it's fine.
  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Dude, sorry. Apparently this is an issue only on my cheesy laptop running Firefox. When I look at it on my PC, it's fine.
    Cool, thanks.
  33. #33
    OneByPhi gets by Ctrevino to go to 6-1. Results:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4652
  34. #34
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    I'm 4-3.

    I think MeGrimlock wants us to play all 10 games soon so I'll be looking to play Ctrevino, dawgboy and eastsidejohnny again shortly.
  35. #35
    I think I have played everybody once.
  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    I think I have played everybody once.
    Me too. Today over lunch MeGrimlock explained the huge advantage that the 1st and 2nd seeds will enjoy in the playoffs. Do you want to explain it here in this thread so people aren't surprised when we get to that point?
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Me too. Today over lunch MeGrimlock explained the huge advantage that the 1st and 2nd seeds will enjoy in the playoffs. Do you want to explain it here in this thread so people aren't surprised when we get to that point?
    Before I joined, I mentioned to him that I thought it was too big of an edge to give the top 2 seeds. I suggested going from a 2-game-maximum in which the lower seed must win both games, but the higher seed only needs to win 1 to a 4-game-maximum in which the lower seed must win 3 games, but the higher seed only needs to win 2. I hadn't heard what was decided, but I assume the 2-game-maximum playoff is the system we're using.

    I get the idea of rewarding success in the "regular season," though, and this system does. I've had the good fortune to have run really well so far, but I know that luck can play a deciding role in a short 30-game set, and that the difference between a loss and a win often can come down to one or two key hands out of that 30.

    I've enjoyed the games, and I'm glad MeGrimlock got this all together for us all. There are still a lot of games to be played, and anyone can get on a good roll and claim one of the top seeds. Good luck to all.
  38. #38
    HI all,
    I got back on the saddle after getting destroyed by Jim and beat Tangomecash in a tightly contested match that was much closer than the scored indicated. It was all even until I went on a run in the early 20's, perfect timing for a match to 30.

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/chinese...table.php?4840

    Eastsidejohnny is now 2-2 and is ready to play round 2 with everyone. Get in touch and lets duke it out
  39. #39
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    The playoffs were explained to me in an interesting way. It sounds like 3rd must go 3-1 or 4-0 to get past 2nd. The same goes for the winner of 4th/5th to get past 1st. That's how we're doing it, right?
  40. #40
    The e-mail I got from Justin before this all started explained that the 1 and 2 seeds get a bye in the quarter-final round, and that the semi-final round is a best-of-3 with the higher seed getting a 1-game head start. Essentially, this means that it is a maximum of 2 games, and that the 1 and 2 seeds only need to win 1 of the two games, but the lower seed needs to win them both. Again, I lobbied against this before the start because I thought it was too big of an edge to give the 1 and 2 seeds. I suggested either more games or just giving the highest 2 seeds a small point advantage to start. I never heard back from him, so I assume the original plan is in effect.
  41. #41
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    I texted Justin and asked him to respond to this thread.
  42. #42
    There are 8 teams.

    5 teams make playoffs.

    The #4 team will play the #5 team in a (1 Game play-in match known as the Wild Card Match).

    The Winner of this (1 Game Play-in Match) will advance to the semi-finals.

    The Semi-Finals will be:

    Wild Card Winner (4 or 5) v. #1 Team

    and

    #2 Team v. #3 Team.

    Each of these Semi-finals matches will be a BEST of 5.

    *note #1 and #2 seeds will have a 1 game head start in the best of 5 (thus being up 1-0).

    The winners advance to championship.

    The championship will be a best of five with no advance to either team.

    The team that wins 3 games first wins the Championship.

    The end.
  43. #43
    Villains

    OnebyPhi 6-1
    Tangomecash 3-4
    Megrimlock 3-4
    Bacon TT 2-4

    Heroes

    Eric 4-3
    Dawgboy 4-3
    Eastside Johnny 3-2
    Ctrevino 1-5

    *eastside johnny is still catching up since he took over for a player.

    Games that still need to be played:

    Eastside Johnny v. Ctrevino

    Eastside Johnny v. Bacon TT

    ...other than that, we are not in the final stage where the division teams play each other one more time each.

    Good luck.
  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock View Post
    ...other than that, we are not in the final stage where the division teams play each other one more time each.

    Good luck.
    I talked to Justin today, he meant that we are noW in the final stage.
  45. #45
    OneByPhi narrowly edges MeGrimlock, in a tight, back-and-forth game.
    Results: http://www.flopturnriver.com/open-fa...table.php?5267

    OneByPhi goes to 7-1
  46. #46
    OneByPhi over tangomecash to go 8-1.
    Results: http://www.flopturnriver.com/open-fa...table.php?5276
  47. #47
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  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    This match features some interesting plays. I really like the line you took in hand 4 (splitting up 4433).

    There are also 3 hands that are fairly similar that I'd love to discuss if you want to talk about them. In hand 9, did you consider K/543/9 or K/9/543 instead? I'm not wild about K/43/95 because I think the 95 offsuit offers little flexibility in the bottom. Hand 22 is somewhat similar--you set A/23/J4. Although the suited nature of the bottom gives you a bit more flexibility, I still would have opted for A/234/J, but I'm not sure it's any better. In hand 29 you set xxx/34/995, rather than xxx/345/99. This worked out great when you caught another 5 and another 9 to make a boat. I know a while back we had a discussion about setting kickers low. I know MMM took the side of doing it, and I argued against it. You seem to be going with MMM's line here. What has swayed you in that direction?

    I don't mean to suggest that my plays are any better than yours, just trying to think through these spots and see your reasoning. Hands like this come up a lot, so getting max value out of them is a big part of being successful.

    Good luck the rest of the way. bro.
  49. #49
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    Yes, in the past I've set hand 9 types as:
    K/543/9
    instead of:
    K/34/59


    It is six of one and half a dozen of the other.
    The 5 on the bottom is limiting but it is also
    limiting putting 345 in the middle instead of just 34.
    On that hand I wanted to try balancing the flexibility.


    These days I almost always set hand 22 types as:
    A/23/J4


    The 2 heart flush is still alive for us this way.
    If hearts doen't come and we have to switch gears
    towards 2 pairs then we don't need both pairs to
    be high, we just need one high pair and we're on our way
    with the jack. In other words, 44JJ beats almost
    any 2 pair combination in the middle.


    Yes, in hand 29 I went X/34/995 and it is
    the same type of logic as hand 22. I don't need
    both pairs to be high. Since we have a pair of nines
    we can beat a lot of 2 pair combinations in the middle - we
    just have to be careful to make sure our highest mid pair is 88.
    Again, I'm starting to feel more
    comfortable setting 2 non paired cards mid
    as opposed to 3 non paired mids with the first 5 set.


    Thanks for the discussion, having to go through
    hands like these and explain my decisions helps
    me improve.
  50. #50
    Coming from behind down the final stretch! I'm 4-4 now!
  51. #51
    I wanted to chime in on how this Playoffs is set up. Obviously we don't change it this time around however once we put this thing into play for real money I think it needs some changes. I am a fan of the #4 & #5 seeds playing a Wild Card Match, however they should be able to play best of 3. I'm not a big fan of the number 1 or number 2 seed getting a 1 game lead in a series, however I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of a bye. There reward is by playing the lowest seeds. They don't do this in the NBA; or any pro sport for that matter. They don't do this in the NBC Head's Up Poker National Championship. I understand you don't want the #1 seed to fall in the first round but it is what it is. I have 3 suggestions:

    #1
    After the Wild Card, you have the remaining 4 teams play a double elimination bracket (best of 3 Match series) Maybe Championship be best of 5 series.

    #2
    Give the #1 seed a bye
    Have the #2-#5 seeds play a single elimination bracket best of 3 match series
    Have the 3 remaining teams play a double elimination series best of 3 match series

    #3
    Allow 6 teams into the playoffs and give #1&2 seeds a 1st round bye.
    #3-6 seeds play in a single elimination bracket (best of 3 match series)
    Remaining 4 teams play in a single elimination bracket (best of 5 match series) or a double elimination bracket (best of 3 match series)

    If you ask me these suggestions provide fair advantages to the Top seed and the only way to provide an advantage to #2 is by allowing another team in playoffs.

    Just my 2 sense,
    Matt
  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon_TT7 View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the number 1 or number 2 seed getting a 1 game lead in a series, however I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of a bye. There reward is by playing the lowest seeds. They don't do this in the NBA; or any pro sport for that matter. They don't do this in the NBC Head's Up Poker National Championship.
    Agreed.
  53. #53
    #3
    Allow 6 teams into the playoffs and give #1&2 seeds a 1st round bye.
    #3-6 seeds play in a single elimination bracket (best of 3 match series)
    Remaining 4 teams play in a single elimination bracket (best of 5 match series) or a double elimination bracket (best of 3 match series)

    If you ask me these suggestions provide fair advantages to the Top seed and the only way to provide an advantage to #2 is by allowing another team in playoffs.

    Just my 2 sense,
    Matt[/QUOTE]

    Personally I like the this option the most!
  54. #54
    Good suggestions Matt. I appreciate them.
    The only issue that I would is that with this particular setup ---5 teams out of 8 making the playoffs is too many already. Ideally, with only 8 teams ---I would only like to see 3 teams play for the Championship. It would be the #1 seed getting a bye --with the #2 and #3 teams playing in order to face #1 seed in Championship.

    This setup affords a 4th and 5th team to get a long shot to win opportunity by having a "play-in wild card" match. And they should still be at a disadvantage in my opinion because they are most likely going to be 5-5 or worse.

    I would want to be 9-1 and play a WC winner from scratch ...kinda devalues the fact that the (9-1) team kicked some much ass.

    When we expand to 12-16 teams I will implement a more traditional playoff bracket where 6 teams would make playoffs.
  55. #55
    OneByPhi finishes the regular season at 9-1 after squeaking by Bacon_TT7 in a game when the deck was stone cold.

    Results: http://www.flopturnriver.com/open-fa...table.php?5374
  56. #56
    I am a fan of the 4 & 5 seed playing a wild card match... however they should be allowed to play best of 3. My #2 suggestion favors the #1 seed big time. It guarantees him a semi final appearance. Plus a double elimination bracket because he gets 2 chances from the get go. Where as the other 4 teams had to win there first series. Giving someone a 1 game lead will only create an argument, "Well you only beat me because you had a 1 game lead!" "You're not a true Champion because you only had to win two games against me in a 5 game series! Think about it this method just doesn't exist! You'll never get me to say that its fair because it just isn't! Let me reference the NBA again back when Dallas had that sick ass record and lost in the first round to a #8 team who was barely above .500; "was that fair?" Absolutely it was, the team who played better won. I think having 5 teams go into playoffs is fine, you're being fair and nice. I would even be fine w 6 going. This should be discussed with everyone on this thread and see what people actually think.
  57. #57
    Justin when building something like this and doing a trial run; you have to be willing to accept feedback and push to get people talking and making suggestions. That is how you will build a successful and fun league. All of us on this trial run are your front runners and you want us to help you. You don't want to see it as we're challenging you or against you. I'm sure I can speak for all of us and say we all want it to succeed! The league will then grow because you'll have all of us wanting to push for more players because we all took pride in helping you build it.
    Last edited by Bacon_TT7; 02-21-2014 at 03:52 AM.
  58. #58
    Here's a suggestion if we make this into a money game. I'm going to assume 12 teams because it's an easy number to make the math simple, but it could work for other numbers.

    Let x = the buy-in, so the total prize pool = 12x

    After the regular season, the #1 seed gets 2x and the #2 seed gets x, so regular-season success is rewarded because the #2 seed is freerolling and the #1 seed has already doubled his money. The 9-12 finishers are eliminated, and the other 8 teams play a standard bracket tournament:
    A Bracket:
    1 vs. 8
    4 vs. 5
    B Bracket:
    2 vs. 7
    3 vs. 6

    The winner gets 6x and the second-place finisher gets 3x.

    This approach can't work in a "bragging rights" (i.e. no money) set-up like the one we have now, but if there is a cash buy-in, this balances rewarding success and making the tourney structure fairer.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 02-21-2014 at 05:18 PM.
  59. #59
    Breaking News:

    Unfortunately, Eastside Johnny has dropped out of the league. The reason for quitting is currently unknown, but no worries. We will be moving forward with an abridged solution.

    Instead of two divisions of 4 teams ---we will operate with no divisions. Just a league of 7 teams - and everyone will play each other twice.

    This way we are keeping it simple. I'm disappointed that this is the second time that a player has opted out, but for those sticking it out --I thank you.

    So...any game played against Eastside Johnny is like it never existed.

    As for the playoff bracket ...still open to discussing the merits of "advantages" vs. flooding the playoffs with players that did not have stellar winning records.
  60. #60
    Matt ---thank you again for your kind thoughts and suggestions.

    I just find it difficult to reward teams that did not have a great showing during a regular season.

    If we had 8 teams ---I don't think 5 teams should make it in a "true-playoff-bracket" where all things are equal. You bring up the NBA --I can easily bring up the NFL. Only 6 teams make playoffs with 16 in each conference. Therefore, 3 playoff teams with 8 teams is the equivalent.

    #1 team would get a Bye to Championship and will play the winner between #2 v. #3.

    With 5 or 6 teams making playoffs devalues the point of a regular season in my opinion. It would be more efficient to just have a 8 man single elimination bracket.

    *note for Onebyphi ...I like your idea of rewarding to seeds with set amount of cash pay out and then play out playoff bracket for additional money. This is an idea I would like to explore in conjunction with any other solution that is meant.

    Also considering the option of a "quarter-point" with all matches during regular season as well as the playoff bracket pay out.

    Ex: A solid player who loses by closes matches will have a higher profit than a player who consistently loses by large amounts of points.

    The Question will be if we can get a large amount of players to commit to such a financial investment. Some pockets might not be as deep as others ...especially since it's an open-ended amount any player can stand to lose in each match. It could add up quickly.

    ^^Onebyphi would be licking his chops, right? =)
  61. #61
    It could get pretty expensive for some people to play on a per-point basis. The advantage of tourneys over cash games is that your loss is limited (to your buy-in). It might be harder to recruit players if they couldn't know up front what it would cost them, and we might have more problems with players deciding they are outclassed and dropping out mid-tourney. But if there is a set buy-in up front, there's much less incentive to quit since their money is already in the pot.

    It might be a good idea to keep track of total point differential for another reason, though. It's fairly likely that there might be ties based on W-L record, and we could use point differential as a tie-breaker. It also gives a player who falls so far behind in a given 30-round match that it's obvious that he can't win the match a reason to stay focused and keep grinding instead of just giving up.
  62. #62
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    After talking with Justin, he prefers the NFL model over the NBA model from a competitive standpoint.


    In the NFL they have 6/16 AFC and 6/16 NFC teams making the playoffs.
    If this structure was applied to our league then 3/8 players would make it.


    In the NBA they have 8/15 Eastern and 8/15 Western teams making the playoffs.
    This would mean 4/8 or 5/8 of our players would make it.


    We don't have signed contracts in our league and we're not being paid to finish the matches. As such, I think we should follow more of an NBA model where more people make the playoffs and there is less of an incentive to quit. I'm not sure how we best incentivize the people near last place to stay with it and not quit.
  63. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I'm not sure how we best incentivize the people near last place to stay with it and not quit.
    If there's no money involved, there's not much motivation. But if you're paying $100 (or whatever) to buy into the tourney, there's more motivation. Moreover, as you imply, the more teams that make the playoffs, the more people have a chance. That's why in the model I suggested a few posts back, I had 8 of 12 teams (2/3) making the playoffs.

    On an unrelated note, if this does turn into a cash tourney, I'd like to do away with divisions and use a round-robin structure (in which everyone plays everyone else the same number of times). As the NFC demonstrated this year, in a divisional system, it isn't always how you play, but who you play. The Arizona Cardinals went 10-6 despite having to play the Seahawks and Niners twice, but didn't make the playoffs, while the 8-7-1 Packers and 10-6 Eagles made it largely due to having much easier paths through the season. If we're going to play for cash, I think we should use a round-robin structure instead of a divisional structure, in which some players might profit from facing easier opposition more often.
  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    If there's no money involved, there's not much motivation. But if you're paying $100 (or whatever) to buy into the tourney, there's more motivation.
    Our home games have a $5 Hold'em hand at the end of the night. It is played like 5 card stud - you get what you get and there is no betting after everyone goes "all in" for $5 each before seeing their cards. People stick around knowing they can win that last random hand.


    If we collect $100 or whatever from each player then I think we put 2/3rds of it towards the league prize pool and 1/3rd towards something random. Everyone who completes all their matches and doesn't quit has an equal chance at winning the random prize at the end. This incentivizes people not to quit - even after they are mathematically eliminated.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    On an unrelated note, if this does turn into a cash tourney, I'd like to do away with divisions and use a round-robin structure (in which everyone plays everyone else the same number of times).
    Agreed. I think we're done with divisions. Among other things, they make things too complicated when people quit.
  65. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Our home games have a $5 Hold'em hand at the end of the night. It is played like 5 card stud - you get what you get and there is no betting after everyone goes "all in" for $5 each before seeing their cards. People stick around knowing they can win that last random hand. If we collect $100 or whatever from each player then I think we put 2/3rds of it towards the league prize pool and 1/3rd towards something random. Everyone who completes all their matches and doesn't quit has an equal chance at winning the random prize at the end. This incentivizes people not to quit - even after they are mathematically eliminated.
    I don't oppose this as an idea, but I think 1/3 is way too much. I wouldn't strenuously object to paying 5% of the overall pot as a "monte carlo" for the biggest hand (measured by point differential) during the course of the tourney, or something similar, but I wouldn't be interested in playing in a tournament that skimmed off 1/3 of the cash to reward fulfilling some random goal.

    A few years back, I played a lot in the $3/$5 NLHE cash game at a local tribal casino. During one session, the floor boss came around and asked the players at our table if we would like to change anything about the bonus payouts (a bad beat jackpot and various high-hand bonuses). I said that I wished that they would eliminate them altogether and leave the freakin' money on the table. Those bonuses weren't charity--we paid for them with the per-hand rake. Some of the other grinders said I was failing to see the big picture. They said that when the bad beat jackpot got up into the tens of thousands of dollars, it drew in the fish, who would dump money into our game as they tried to hit the jackpot.

    I get that it's a lot easier to show a profit against bad players who are lured into a game beyond their skill level by dreams of hitting a random jackpot than it is to show a profit against skilled players, but I don't like the idea of paying out 1/3 of the money in the pool to whoever is fortunate enough to hit a lucky hand (or whatever). I think the lion's share of the cash should be paid out to the players who consistently play the best. I don't mind if people want to spread the money to more places. In my proposal earlier I suggested 1/6th of the pot to the regular season leader, 1/12th of the pot to the regular season second place finisher, 1/2 the pot to the tourney champ, and 1/4 of the pot to the tourney runner-up. If people would prefer to give less to the top 2 and cut in 3rd and 4th, I'm all good with that, but if any money at all goes to anything other than performance, I don't think it should be more than 5%.
  66. #66
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    Yeah, 1/3rd is too high now that I think about it.
  67. #67
    To expand on the point of rewarding randomness:

    Back when I was frequently playing in casinos, one of the other teachers at the community college where I teach said to me, "I would never have taken you for a gambler." To which I replied, "I'm not a gambler. I'm a poker player."

    A gambler seeks the thrill of action, so he will play a game like roulette, in which it is clear that his long-term expectation is negative, because the thrill of the chance to hit a 35-1 payoff entices him; a poker player coolly calculates whether his expectation in a given game is worth his expenditure in time. That's why in the home game scenario you outlined above, I think only gamblers would stick around for the last hand. Everyone's expectation is zero--over the long haul everyone should win an equal number of times--so a poker player would see that he had no edge and would leave that action to those who seek the thrill of gambling.

    Similarly, if the goal in this tournament league is to draw in gamblers, then setting aside a significant chunk of cash for random goals makes sense. But that will drive away the poker players because it will lower the amount to be won by skill and decrease their edge in the game.

    Contests of pure skill, like chess tournaments or duplicate bridge tournaments, are determined solely by the decisions the players make, but poker combines luck and skill, so variance plays a significant role in the short run. A player can run bad when he's playing well and go on significant losing streaks, or he can run good when he's playing poorly and go on significant winning streaks. The structure of this tournament is such that randomness already plays a significant role. 30-hand sessions are so short that I'd argue that luck already plays a bigger role than skill in any given session. And I'd argue that's already a big enough edge to give away.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 02-23-2014 at 05:18 PM.
  68. #68
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    Phi, I don't disagree. However, we don't want to discourage people who are new to ofc and/or running bad.
  69. #69
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    Eric beats tangomecash in a close one: http://www.flopturnriver.com/open-fa...table.php?5798
  70. #70
    I am 6-5!!! Just have one last Match with Mr. Eric...

    I agree mostly with OneByPhi on the playoffs structure. I also have to say if we were to play $0.25 a point that wouldn't break the bank! I also don't think it would scare away novice players, if anything it would be more inviting because they too can hedge there losses. If there's anything that would scare novice players it would be to high of a league buy in. I have lots of players in mind that I'd love to invite for when we do it for real!
  71. #71
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    I'm starting to lose track of things unless I make some notes to myself here:

    I'm 6-2.

    I still need to play MeGrimlock, Bacon, OneByPhi and Ctrevino again.
  72. #72
    Man, I'm confused. I thought we each played our own division twice and the other division once. I didn't think Eric and I would play again unless we met in the playoffs.
  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Man, I'm confused. I thought we each played our own division twice and the other division once. I didn't think Eric and I would play again unless we met in the playoffs.
    MeGrimlock made changes on Feb 21 after ej dropped out.


    Here is what he said:
    Unfortunately, Eastside Johnny has dropped out of the league. The reason for quitting is currently unknown, but no worries. We will be moving forward with an abridged solution.


    Instead of two divisions of 4 teams ---we will operate with no divisions. Just a league of 7 teams - and everyone will play each other twice.


    This way we are keeping it simple. I'm disappointed that this is the second time that a player has opted out, but for those sticking it out --I thank you.


    So...any game played against Eastside Johnny is like it never existed.


    As for the playoff bracket ...still open to discussing the merits of "advantages" vs. flooding the playoffs with players that did not have stellar winning records.
  74. #74
    Ok, so that means I play Eric, Dawgboy, and someone else (not sure who the other player is left in that no-longer-existent division). Would that be Chris or Randy? And what's the FTR screen name of the other player?
  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Ok, so that means I play Eric, Dawgboy, and someone else (not sure who the other player is left in that no-longer-existent division). Would that be Chris or Randy? And what's the FTR screen name of the other player?
    It would be Chris and his FTR name is Ctrevino. The 3 players in the no-longer-existent division are me, Ctrevino and Dawgboy.

    Eric beats Bacon to go 7-2: http://www.flopturnriver.com/open-fa...table.php?6018
    Last edited by Eric; 03-01-2014 at 02:46 AM.

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