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Rules Question

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  1. #1

    Default Rules Question

    Guy calls shove, and I have JT, on QJ8T8 board. I say (jokingly because I figure I'm beat and was hoping to fold out opponent's Qx hand) "I have 3 pair." Villain says, it's good I just have a queen. Dealer measures out opponents chips to make sure he had enough to call me, clearly about to give the pot to me. The dealer puts the vill's hand in the muck, when another guy at the table says.. "No, he's got Q's and 8's." Villain goes, "Oh my god, i didn't see that, woah, I'm really sorry man." and dealer begins to ship pot to Villain... I ask "but his cards are in the muck, doesn't that mean his hand is dead?" Dealer replies "No, i called it." I know that cards speak in nearly every poker room but should I have called the floor over?

    I have very little live experience, and I didn't think of asking for it until later, but it's been gnawing on me a little as it was a good sized pot.
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  2. #2
    If his cards were tabled face up at any point after he called you, his hand plays even if it was later put into the muck by mistake. If he didn't table his hand, then you have a legitimate case.

    But since someone else at the table pointed out (as he should) that the other guy had Q's and 8's, it seems he tabled his hand. The pot is rightfully his.
    Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
  3. #3
    Stop angle-shooting OP.

    If you're trying to get someone to muck a better hand by being intentionally vague/misleading about your hand at showdown, that's scummy.

    If you know he has a Queen and you can't beat a Queen, just muck your hand or flip it over instead of trying to argue about it.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Stop angle-shooting OP.

    If you're trying to get someone to muck a better hand by being intentionally vague/misleading about your hand at showdown, that's scummy.

    If you know he has a Queen and you can't beat a Queen, just muck your hand or flip it over instead of trying to argue about it.
    I wasn't trying to intentionally angle shoot, and like I said I have very little experience with live play. I was pretty sure if had he not shown and just said... "I just have a Queen" and mucked. That it's dead and by nearly any set of poker rules I win the pot. Isn't that correct?

    Or is that still angle shooting... would the proper play be to say "well, Qs and 8s beats Js and Ts... please dig your hand out of the muck and take this money"?
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  5. #5
    It's an all-in pot and he showed, how do you think it's OK for you to drag the pot with a worse hand? If you know that "cards speak" then why would you even argue or debate calling the floor?

    Technically, saying, "I have three pair," is a misrepresentation of your hand because in Hold'em, the best 5-card hand plays. There's a very fine line (if one at all) between saying, "I have three pair" and saying, "I have quads" and having him muck the better hand.
    Last edited by baudib; 07-31-2011 at 06:29 PM.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  6. #6
    Yeah, well declaring 3-pair is obv meant in jest and I wouldn't take too much offense, but if you were to argue now that the pot belongs to you because the dealer didn't see the winning hand and messed it up by mucking opp's hand, that's definitely dirty angleshooting.

    If he mucked his hand face down then yeah, I guess that's one of the risks of mucking your hand face down - I don't think I've ever seen a winner being dug out of the muck in that situation because it's the player's fault, and not the dealer's. On the other hand, if it's a case like baudib cited where you falsely declare "quads" or something and causes him to muck face down then you have a messy situation where the floor man has to be called to the table and a long discussion has to take place wasting everybody's time.

    Edit: but of course at that point you have to usually show your cards to win the pot, and if they see that you falsely declared your hand then I guess it wouldn't be hard to convince the floorman to let the mucked hand be considered live.
    Last edited by eugmac; 08-01-2011 at 10:12 AM.
  7. #7
    rpm's Avatar
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    basically, by the rules i'm used to, if his hand was tabled face-up, the pot is his - even if the dealer mis-awarded the pot and put his hand in the muck. if he hand was face up and visible, he is at showdown, and can call the cameras etc if he knows he showed down a winning hand and wasn't awarded the pot.

    if he mucked it in response to your "three pair" statement (ie both his cards were never sat face up on the table), then the pot is yours, however some people may think you were angle-shooting (which doesn't sound like it was your intention) because you said something which prompted him to muck what you assumed to be a better hand. i've seen people try to get away with saying "i have aces" or something to such effect at showdown when they actually have air, hoping to induce a muck from their opponent, or otherwise say "lol jk" and pretend it was a joke if their opponent does table their hand. this may not be strictly against the rules, i'm unsure. but it's pretty gross imo regardless.
    Last edited by rpm; 08-01-2011 at 07:05 PM.
  8. #8
    oskar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
    If his cards were tabled face up at any point after he called you, his hand plays even if it was later put into the muck by mistake.
    This is the important part. If he just showed his card without tabling them face up, it's not a showdown and they can be mucked.
    As a player I would let him have the pot even if the technical details are iffy. Having people softplay you beause they think you are cool is hugely +EV.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Having people softplay you beause they think you are cool is hugely +EV.

    really really underrated part of live poker
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  10. #10
    Thanks for the responses... the "3 pair" was obviously joking. And I was simply unclear on the rules... I guess in the moment I was also quite angry because before the guy tabled his AQ, he slowrolled huge (obviously unintentially) but said... "You hit two pair on me you lucky son of a bitch... and such"... But I clearly understand the rules now. Thanks all!
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  11. #11
    oskar's Avatar
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    I spoke about a similar spot with two floormen today and both agreed to a ruling that I wouldn't have expected.

    Situation in question: PLO cash game. Three players in showdown. One player tables a set and the dealer announces his hand, second guy says: 'I have a straight' and tables ten high, no straight. First player mucks his set! Third player shows two pair.

    They both said it is possible for a player to muck the winning hand even though it was in showdown if he throws the cards in the muck himself. In this case they would have both given the pot to the player with the winning hand still at showdown. Two pair would take the pot.
    In a tournament the hand would still be live because it affects other players as well.
    OP's hand, because the player didn't muck his hand, it was a dealer error. So it is still live.
    Last edited by oskar; 08-04-2011 at 11:03 PM.
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