question about big card in bad position

i was playing 10/20 kill down at the poker club the other night and in a ew instances where i was small or big blind i picked up AK or JJ, or QQor some other big hand usually should have a preflop raise, now at our club if someone has already limped in they always call a raise, so i didnt bother to raise wth these hands in bad position because it wouldnt limit the field at all, and in alot of instances overcards come or i dont hit AK i can throw it away cheaply, should i be raising or should i be just calling and seeing the flop and seeing where i stand from there?

ohh by the way i bought in for 100$ and finished the night with $2900, very good night. one hand where i lost a tonne was a kill pot i had QQ, someone raised preflop i just calledalong with 2 others, flop came down 2 6 7, raise call, i call and button calls, turn was a Q, so i have top set,, raise, reraise, so I 3 bet the flop and button cold calls 3 bets and UTG caps it, and other guy calls, so i call as well, next river is a 10, under the gun raises, call, i call, and buton raisesunder the gun calls and so does the other guy, i fold. board was rainbow, of course the button had 8 9 offsuit
bahhh about a 800$ pot that i lost on the river, under the gun had 77 and other guy had 66, so 3 sets, and a river straight, that hand really sucked.

Originally Posted by maxxscam

i picked up AK or JJ, or QQor some other big hand usually should have a preflop raise, now at our club if someone has already limped in they always call a raise, so i didnt bother to raise wth these hands in bad position

Good Question!

I ran into the same thing tonight. My raises got no respect at the limit table. So when I had AKo in the BB, I checked. I can't limit the field anyway, so why raise?

It cost me a few bucks to push and lose, and I missed out on a few bucks by not pushing and winning. But I think I did the right thing. But I am still interested in hearing other people tell their views.

I think if the other players are bad enough, it's +EV to get more money into the pot. Chances are you're the PF favorite, so should try to get money in there.

Originally Posted by maxxscam

i was playing 10/20 kill down at the poker club the other night and in a ew instances where i was small or big blind i picked up AK or JJ, or QQor some other big hand usually should have a preflop raise, now at our club if someone has already limped in they always call a raise, so i didnt bother to raise wth these hands in bad position because it wouldnt limit the field at all, and in alot of instances overcards come or i dont hit AK i can throw it away cheaply, should i be raising or should i be just calling and seeing the flop and seeing where i stand from there?

RAISE! Only with hands like AQo, AJo am I turning a standard raise into a call/complete/check.

Originally Posted by maxxscam

one hand where i lost a tonne was a kill pot i had QQ, someone raised preflop i just calledalong with 2 others

3-bet!

You can't make up a missed value bet easily in limit. They'll chase with crap anyway, so you may as well build a pot. Just be ready to dump if you get a horrible flop or serious resistance from passive players. Also consider checking in the dark in spots like this. Certainly don't feel compelled to bet out the flop with AK.

the sad thing is i get killed playin limit on the net, but when i go to the club and play 10/20, i do well. I just find that if i raise preflop i am almost compelled to raise again on flop /turn whether i hit or not, or whether there are overcards or not, if i raise QQ from big blind and there were 7 pother people, they are all gonna call for sure, for 10$ more, and then the flop comes, A 7 6 , what do i do then? i just wasted a bet, , i do see that if the flop comes good i get 7 extra bets in there, but even then my hand is no a sure thing, actually with 7 people in it it is likely i need to hit my set in order to win, because undoubtedly some fool that limped with 7 9 will hit two pair or trip 7's or the woman with 5 4 will catcha straight on the river. I am just having a hard time justifieng whether it is the right play to raise QQ or AK or JJ or even KK from the blinds. Another thing is i am a bit of a rock on the table, and people know that so when i raise they usually can put me on a big hand, if i just call, i can trap some people, such as one hand, i had QQ on button flop comes 7 3 2 rainbow, i bet and get raised, everyone else folds, so i call, then turn is a 8 so i bet and get raised again, i call, then river is a K i check and get raised, so i call, she had 10 10, if i raise that for value preflop sure i get 3 extra bets, but i dont get the action afterwars i dont think, and if an overcard falls i lose more. bah i still am not sure what to do. i might try switching it up a bit next time i go to the club.

i folded AQ and AK preflop, twice just cause i knew the other raiser had AA or KK , both times they had AA, so it was a good play, but yeah i never raise AJ or AQ anymore unless its folded to me and i wanna try to get heads up.
i rarely raise preflop the only hands i raise preflop, is something like AA KK QQ JJ or AK in position, or JT / T9 suited to beef the pot if i am in a blind, cause its such a good drawing hand

Originally Posted by maxxscam

I just find that if i raise preflop i am almost compelled to raise again on flop /turn whether i hit or not, or whether there are overcards or not

Then stop that!

Originally Posted by maxxscam

if i raise QQ from big blind and there were 7 pother people, they are all gonna call for sure, for 10$ more, and then the flop comes, A 7 6 , what do i do then? i just wasted a bet

You did not waste a bet!!! You got 7 SB in the pot when you probably had the best hand. That's amazing value for your money. Limit is a game of small edges, you're still thinking like No Limit. By failing to raise your best hands you're too easy on the guys that limp with crap and take down your top pairish hands.

Originally Posted by maxxscam

i do see that if the flop comes good i get 7 extra bets in there, but even then my hand is no a sure thing, actually with 7 people in it it is likely i need to hit my set in order to win, because undoubtedly some fool that limped with 7 9 will hit two pair or trip 7's or the woman with 5 4 will catcha straight on the river.

...and he'll probably check+call all the way. Ain't it great?

Also, remember that you will often suck back out on them. With large pots built via pushing your pre-flop edges you can beat them at their own game.

Originally Posted by maxxscam

I am just having a hard time justifieng whether it is the right play to raise QQ or AK or JJ or even KK from the blinds. Another thing is i am a bit of a rock on the table, and people know that so when i raise they usually can put me on a big hand

...and they fail to act on that information. I was at a table once that was "on to me." I pick up KQ UTG and raise. I get cold called in 3 spots plus the blinds come in. Flop is A X X rainbow. I bet out and get called in 3 spots. Gee, having a tight rep really killed my action...

Also, start raising the better suited broadway cards in position for value and to keep them from putting you on such a narrow range of holdings.

Oh, and AA-TT all win loose pots unimproved. I've taken down a live pot with JJ 4-way capped pre-flop.

well ill be back there on friday and sunday nights, i lost 800 last friday, but won 2800 on sunday, hopefully i have turned the corner, and continue to make profits again instead of breakin even or losing like i had been last few times. overall in about 10 times down there i am up around $7000, but my classes are really being affected, barley passed my midterms, as long as i pass i dont care, but hopefully some of your tips fnord will help, you seen to be the best limit player on here so any advice you can give i appreciate. hopefully i will make this a fulltime thing after graduation. starting in january, my goal is gonna be $50,000 for 2005, so i'm sure i'll have alot more questions for you in my new limit endeavours.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by maxxscam

I just find that if i raise preflop i am almost compelled to raise again on flop /turn whether i hit or not, or whether there are overcards or not

Then stop that!

I think it depends on the field and pot size. If there are 16 small bets in the pot, firing out again after you raise you only need the whole field to fold 1 time in 15 to make this a profitable play. You can slow down on 4th street if you don't improve. Not to mention if you play AK and AA and KK the same way when rags fall, the good players in the game can't put you on a hand.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by maxxscam

if i raise QQ from big blind and there were 7 pother people, they are all gonna call for sure, for 10$ more, and then the flop comes, A 7 6 , what do i do then? i just wasted a bet

You did not waste a bet!!! You got 7 SB in the pot when you probably had the best hand. That's amazing value for your money. Limit is a game of small edges, you're still thinking like No Limit. By failing to raise your best hands you're too easy on the guys that limp with crap and take down your top pairish hands.

I second this. Even if QQ only wins 20% of the time against 7 other players, that's still a significant profit long-term. Gotta raise here. Besides, I have a feeling the loose-passive table described in this post most folks would have called an UTG raise by someone holding QQ with marginal hands like J9o, 44, and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by maxxscam

i do see that if the flop comes good i get 7 extra bets in there, but even then my hand is no a sure thing, actually with 7 people in it it is likely i need to hit my set in order to win, because undoubtedly some fool that limped with 7 9 will hit two pair or trip 7's or the woman with 5 4 will catcha straight on the river.

...and he'll probably check+call all the way. Ain't it great?

Also, remember that you will often suck back out on them. With large pots built via pushing your pre-flop edges you can beat them at their own game.

Big-card theory. Read Lee Jones' book Winning Low Limit Hold'em

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by maxxscam

I am just having a hard time justifieng whether it is the right play to raise QQ or AK or JJ or even KK from the blinds. Another thing is i am a bit of a rock on the table, and people know that so when i raise they usually can put me on a big hand

...and they fail to act on that information. I was at a table once that was "on to me." I pick up KQ UTG and raise. I get cold called in 3 spots plus the blinds come in. Flop is A X X rainbow. I bet out and get called in 3 spots. Gee, having a tight rep really killed my action...

Also, start raising the better suited broadway cards in position for value and to keep them from putting you on such a narrow range of holdings.

Oh, and AA-TT all win loose pots unimproved. I've taken down a live pot with JJ 4-way capped pre-flop.

Two nights ago I took down a 5-way pot on a loose-passive table with KK from the SB (pf raise of course).

Originally Posted by LockLow34

I think it depends on the field and pot size. If there are 16 small bets in the pot, firing out again after you raise you only need the whole field to fold 1 time in 15 to make this a profitable play. You can slow down on 4th street if you don't improve. Not to mention if you play AK and AA and KK the same way when rags fall, the good players in the game can't put you on a hand.

Meh. At the table texture he described the odds of folding out the table with a flop bet are more like 1 in 50. The standard playbook says to always bet out after a PFR out of position, however I think you can save some bets in spots like this when Big Slick misses horribly. Deception isn't that important in a multi-pot full of players with calling disease.

Consider the value of Big Slick against loose players when the flop is:

So, at a calling station table - you PFR AK from say,SB and get callers, a bunch say.

What flops (un paired) to you always bet out on UTG?

Types of no AK flops:

High pair or trip: QQ/JJ/TTx - think you have to check here (bet if the players are actually good!)

Low trip: (999 or lower). You are a 2:1 dog head-sup against a pocket, but you have the edge vs. anyone else (ignoring quads). I find calling stations with even a tiny bit of aggression will re-raise with a pocket, so you are probably safe to be here. fold to re-raise.

Low pair/ 2 draws (99x-suited connectors - say 98spades) OR
No pair/2 draws - Fnord's example. You are big dog here. check/fold

Low pair / 1 draw (99x-where X is a spade or T/8) - depends on the number of PF callers. Not sure what the break even point is.

Rag-straight draw
Rag-flush draw (off your A - so 2 hearts and you have Ac) - about the same as above, but much lower chance you are betting into a set. I would probably bet this, or ideally, check raise.

Rags no draws - bet, bet, bet.

Thoughts?

As I was typing that last one, I played the following hand

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Intrepid Student is UTG with K, A.
Intrepid Student raises, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 (Calling Station) calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9, 6, J (3 players)
Intrepid Student bets, Calling Station calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Intrepid Student bets, Calling Station calls.

River: (6.75 BB) T (2 players)
Intrepid Student bets, Calling Station calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below:
Intrepid Student has Kc Ad (high card, ace).
Calling Station has Qc 6c (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Calling Station wins 8.75 BB.

I think I played this fine, with the possible exception of betting the river with the 9-T-J. Even a calling station is likely to fold only AX high.

Different situation. Against 2 other players AK has a fair shot at winning unimproved, so the flop + turn bets are pretty standard. The river bet is bad, but you know that...

What I was refering to is AK in early position (or blinds) facing at least 3 other players who will call with just about anything. In those cases I think a flop bet is a waste, but it's probably not a big deal.

What I was refering to is AK in early position (or blinds) facing at least 3 other players who will call with just about anything. In those cases I think a flop bet is a waste, but it's probably not a big deal.

I've been betting in this spot every time lately and it seems to work out well. Sometimes you have the best hand, other times you may make your hand on the turn.

I know you don't believe much in table image, but I think the PFR'r that ALWAYS bets the flop can get dividends later on when the flop does hit him. This is a chance to show the table that you are an 'action' player at little or no cost. I do think the low limit players are observant enough to notice this at least.

I check the turn of course if I don't improve my AK. Out of position you are basically handing the pot to your opp when you do this...