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  1. #1
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Default Pineapple Strategy Thread

    This thread will be used to discuss all things pineapple, which you can now play on FTR.
  2. #2
    Eric's Avatar
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    What do you think about the way me and gmml set/played this?

    Eric




    Discard: 3 7 4 2

    givememyleg (dealer)




    Discard: 2 5 3 5
  3. #3
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    i def goofed up on second to last draw, but went for glory!

    i set like an agro maniac in pineapple, so i would have set yours

    KK
    A
    Q9

    as for mine i could also see setting it

    Q
    9
    TT8
  4. #4
    Eric,

    Did you consider just playing up the line:
    Q
    KK9
    A

    As the cards fell, you would end up with
    QJJ
    KK997
    AA222
    Discards: 3, K, 4, J


    I know this is results-oriented, but you would have made 6 points more bonus with the JJ on top. In general, though, I think UTG HU, setting the AKQ up the line gives you a great chance for fantasy land.
  5. #5
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    OneByPhi,

    Yes, I thought about it - especially in pineapple where you get 4 extra cards so you get to fl a lot more often.
  6. #6
    Eric, I know this is probably not the place to ask these questions, but I'm new here and not sure where to ask, so:
    how do I play pineapple here?
    wanna play?
  7. #7
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    Sure, I'll start a table right now. We're also adding Wazzup to pineapple soon.
  8. #8
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Eric,

    Did you consider just playing up the line:
    Q
    KK9
    A
    yeah, i think that is better than my set above.
  9. #9

    Default a common pineapple problem

    Player 1




    Player 2 (Dealer)




    You're UTG HU. On your first two draws, you mucked 2c and 3h. You now draw 9c, 7c, 3d. Clearly, you're going to play the 9c on the bottom, but is it better to play the 7c on the bottom too--it's a fully live card as far as you know--or play it on the top and give yourself the chance to draw a pair? Essentially, is it better to have 4 clear outs (two 9s and two Js) and two open slots, or 7 outs (two 9s, two Js, and three 7s) but no chance to improve your hand by drawing a pair? Also, would your answer differ if one of the 7s were dead?
  10. #10
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    This late in the round, you've got to be concerned with neither fouling nor being scooped. So long as you do not foul, your pair of A's up top will prevent being scooped.

    So you want to play aggressively to prevent foul, and 99's up (on the bottom) will do that. I think don't worry about trying to take a risky shot at a full house on the bottom. Avoiding foul and achieving FL is worth more.

    My intuition says that you should be playing the 9 and the 7 on the bottom. Since it's far less likely that you'd be forced to play an A up top, causing a foul, on 13th street, there's no need to play a card up top and secure against trip A's up top.

    If you play the 7 on the bottom, then you have more outs. Also, you get to pick any 1 of your 3 draws to make a pair, instead of hoping to be dealt a pair.

    **
    I'll have to think about how to even approach the math for pineapple. It's a different mathematical system when you're drawing and discarding in this way. I'm a bit busy today to work out a full calculation, but if there's a request to do so, I can look at this typical case in pineapple soon. Since there's only 1 street of draws to come, it should be pretty straight forward.
  11. #11
    In this particular hand the whole issue of scoops/fouls isn't all that relevant to me. Yes, if I make my hand, my As on top are extremely likely to be the best hand at the end, but Villain's hand is virtually foulproof, he has lots of ways to improve to a mid that beats my 8s-up, all three Qs are live for his FL draw, and he still has 2 draws left. I'm just trying to make a hand to earn my 9-point aces bonus and get to FL.

    In this specific hand, I put the 7 down low, and then drew a pair of 4s on the last draw, but no J, 9, or 7. I'm not so results-oriented that I care much about the way the hand actually played out, but I get into spots similar to this somewhat frequently because I set and play aggressively to try to get big bonuses on top and get to FL. I'm really not sure which play is "mathematically proper," so if you can work out the math of this spot with one draw to come, I'd be grateful.
  12. #12
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?

    I think I just drew bad, but maybe I shouldn't have set AKQ in the back? Figured 3 to a royal is better than Q/K/A77 ? or maybe Q/AK/77 is good too?

    givememyleg




    Discards: 2, 6, 3, 7


    Wazzup (dealer)


    Last edited by givememyleg; 12-12-2013 at 05:46 PM.
  13. #13
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    In this particular hand the whole issue of scoops/fouls isn't all that relevant to me. Yes, if I make my hand, my As on top are extremely likely to be the best hand at the end, but Villain's hand is virtually foulproof, he has lots of ways to improve to a mid that beats my 8s-up, all three Qs are live for his FL draw, and he still has 2 draws left. I'm just trying to make a hand to earn my 9-point aces bonus and get to FL.

    In this specific hand, I put the 7 down low, and then drew a pair of 4s on the last draw, but no J, 9, or 7. I'm not so results-oriented that I care much about the way the hand actually played out, but I get into spots similar to this somewhat frequently because I set and play aggressively to try to get big bonuses on top and get to FL. I'm really not sure which play is "mathematically proper," so if you can work out the math of this spot with one draw to come, I'd be grateful.
    although i don't have the math to back it up, my intuition thinks the 97 on the bottom is the right move.
  14. #14
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?

    Probably a bit too ambitious going to FL on my first draw?

    givememyleg



    Discard: 8 7 5 5


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 6d 4c 9c 5h
  15. #15
    I think you have to set the hand this way in pineapple. Not only is it an FL set, but you have some chance at flush/flush and flush/straight hands. On your first draw, you have to play the q up--why else did you set your hand up this way?--and the spade 2 low is all in line with the plan. The next draw sucks, but you should play the T7 in the mid to give yourself a straight draw. You need to catch an 8 and 2 running spades, so fouling is likely, but you are live. The next draw kills you; so it goes.

    You have to be willing to risk fouling sometimes. Safe, conservative play may show a profit in weak regular OFC games, but in pineapple, you are going to go broke against good players if you don't play aggressively.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-13-2013 at 02:43 PM.
  16. #16
    Okay, on second thought, maybe the K set on the second draw is better than my suggestion because it leaves more doors open. You can still hit a K or 2 pair in the mid and the flush draw on the bottom could convert to a jacks-up 2 pair draw (or trip jacks, 4s, or deuces) if you hit a 9 and a 6 on the next draw. When I thought about this first, I was too focused on making bonus in the mid, but I think your actual play offers more flexibility.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-13-2013 at 02:52 PM.
  17. #17
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    I'm really not sure which play is "mathematically proper," so if you can work out the math of this spot with one draw to come, I'd be grateful.
    This is going to be quite tricky. The odds of drawing a pair is hugely dependent on the content of the deck, so every card that is known has to be taken into account. I'll have to run a lot of scenarios to get an idea of how various boards affect this in a more general sense. The solutions I am calculating here are for this specific case.

    DECK:
    X X X 5 X 7 8 X X X Q K A
    2 X 4 5 X 7 8 9 T J Q X A
    2 X 4 X X 7 X 9 T J X K X
    X 3 4 5 6 X X X T X Q X X

    J99XX
    There are 29 cards in the deck, and Hero will draw 3 cards.
    We count a success if Hero draws at least one 9 or J, or at least 2 of any other value.
    This is the condition for Hero to avoid foul.

    Hero draws at least one 9 or J:
    1 - C(4,0)*C(25,3)/C(29,3) = 37.1%

    Hero draws a pair of 3's or 6's: (There is only 1 out in the deck)
    0% for each
    2 * 0% = 0%

    Hero draws a pair of 2's, 8's, K's, or A's: (There are 2 outs in the deck)
    *note that I do not count 9's or J's here
    C(2,2)*C(27,1)/C(29,3) = 0.74% for each
    4 * 0.74% = 3.0%

    EDIT: oops, I forgot to remove the times I've already counted where Hero draws a pair AND a 9 or J.
    C(2,2)*C(27,1)/C(29,3) - C(2,2)*C(4,1)*C(23,0)/C(29,3)= 0.63% for each
    4 * 0.74% = 2.5%


    Hero draws a pair of 4's, 5's, 7's, T's, or Q's: (There are 3 outs in the deck)
    C(3,2)*C(26,1)/C(29,3) + C(3,3)*C(26,0)/C(29,3) = 2.16% for each
    5 * 2.16% = 10.8%

    EDIT: oops
    C(3,2)*C(26,1)/C(29,3) + C(3,3)*C(26,0)/C(29,3) - C(3,2)*C(4,1)*C(22,0)/C(29,3) = 1.83% for each
    5 * 2.16% = 9.2%

    Your equity to avoid foul is:
    37.1% + 2.5% + 9.2% = 48.7%



    J997X
    There are 29 cards in the deck, and Hero will draw 3 cards.
    We count a success if Hero draws at least one 7, 9 or J AND NOT exactly 1 of those w/ 2 A's
    This is the condition for Hero to avoid foul.

    1 - C(7,0)*C(22,3)/C(29,3) - C(2,2)*C(7,1)*(20,0)/C(29,3) = 57.7%


    Hero has higher equity to avoid foul if he plays the 9 and the 7 both to the bottom hand.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-14-2013 at 02:20 AM.
  18. #18
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    Did I play it right?

    I think I just drew bad, but maybe I shouldn't have set AKQ in the back? Figured 3 to a royal is better than Q/K/A77 ? or maybe Q/AK/77 is good too?

    givememyleg




    Discards: 2, 6, 3, 7


    Wazzup (dealer)


    I usually think Q/AK/77 is best.





    Discards: 2 6 3 7

    ***
    I just can't help but thinking that this prevents ever getting a royal... and seems stupid... But the odds of getting a royal is very small, and even with large royalties, it's a very low chance to get a royal flush... whereas the odds of hitting FL are much better when you catch a draw like this... and the value of FL in pineapple MUST BE greater than regular, since you get an extra card.

    My gut says that you have to set for FL when you get a set like this.

    It's tough to not set the Q up top in pineapple. I'd probably only set for a royal if I had AJT or KJT. As far as a 3-card royal goes. I don't think I can justify setting a Q on the bottom in pineapple. I'd likely split an AK to put the K in the mid... maybe not... probably depend on mood at the time.
  19. #19
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    Did I play it right?

    Probably a bit too ambitious going to FL on my first draw?
    If that was a mistake, then the mistake was in setting the Q up top in the set.
  20. #20


    Hero has higher equity to avoid foul if he plays the 9 and the 7 both to the bottom hand.
    Thanks, I needed that.
  21. #21
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?
    I could've made 2 straights for 6 points of royalty, but I'd have to break 4 pairs. I set it like this for 7 points royalty, but I was less likely to win on the bottom and middle, potentially losing 7 points (+6 for scoop, compared to -1 if I only win the top hand)

    I mean... my opponent was WAZZUP, so much more likely to foul than a human... and the 1 point advantage was really slim.
    MadMojoMonkey



    Discard: 3


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 2 5 2 2
  22. #22
    You can also make a flush and a straight for 8 points in royalties, although you're giving away the top. I don't think you're likely to sweep with any of the sets unless opponent fouls, so maybe biggest bonus is best?
    Th 7h 5s
    Ac Kh Qs Jh Ts
    Kc Qc 6c 5c 3c

    Discard 4s
  23. #23
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    givememyleg




    Discards: 4 T



    I was wondering about this one. Obviously I need to worry about not fouling, so is it better to put the pair of 6s in the middle in hopes of making two pair? Or take the FH in the back, J in mid, and hope for some kind of runner runner?

    ---

    edit: Here was Wazzup's board

    Wazzup (dealer)


    Last edited by givememyleg; 12-18-2013 at 04:06 AM.
  24. #24
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I usually think Q/AK/77 is best.





    Discards: 2 6 3 7

    ***
    I just can't help but thinking that this prevents ever getting a royal... and seems stupid... But the odds of getting a royal is very small, and even with large royalties, it's a very low chance to get a royal flush... whereas the odds of hitting FL are much better when you catch a draw like this... and the value of FL in pineapple MUST BE greater than regular, since you get an extra card.

    My gut says that you have to set for FL when you get a set like this.

    It's tough to not set the Q up top in pineapple. I'd probably only set for a royal if I had AJT or KJT. As far as a 3-card royal goes. I don't think I can justify setting a Q on the bottom in pineapple. I'd likely split an AK to put the K in the mid... maybe not... probably depend on mood at the time.
    yeah, i agree with you here.
  25. #25
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    I was wondering about this one. Obviously I need to worry about not fouling, so is it better to put the pair of 6s in the middle in hopes of making two pair? Or take the FH in the back, J in mid, and hope for some kind of runner runner?


    If you had aces up top then I'd put the sixes in the middle. The fact that you have queens up top makes it more interesting - we don't need 2 pair in the middle if we get KK or AA and there are no kings/aces showing.
  26. #26
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    I've been thinking more about fl type sets and the middle row is key.

    If we have something like 4425 in the middle then we want one of three 2's or one of three 5's for a total of six outs. If we have something like A257 in the middle then we have just three aces as outs. This is assuming our back row isn't that strong - something like JJ889.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I've been thinking more about fl type sets and the middle row is key.

    If we have something like 4425 in the middle then we want one of three 2's or one of three 5's for a total of six outs. If we have something like A257 in the middle then we have just three aces as outs. This is assuming our back row isn't that strong - something like JJ889.
    Amen.
  28. #28
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    So I guess what I'm saying is that one of the big adjustments for pine is the ace in the middle thinking. Everyone knows that an ace in the middle is a great thing in regular ofc. In pine I'm not so sure it is a great thing - like I said it is often easier to get a small 2 pair hand in the middle than a pair of aces.
  29. #29
    Since we have played each other a lot, you know I love the 2-pair, 2-pair, FL pair build, and it's why I don't mind at all hands like Kc, Js, Th, 6h, 4d. They're not among my favorites, but often enough they work out into the structure outlined above. But I think an early Ace in the mid can still be good. I'll happily set
    Kc
    Ah
    6d7d8h
    The nice thing about the ace in the mid in this case is that you're not trying for 2-pair (although you might backdoor 2-pair or even better if the bottom works out), just a single pair of aces in the mid. This can give you a dumping ground for bricks you draw as you chase the FL pair. It also can allow you to increase the top draw by adding the missing picture card later.

    Say in the set above your first draw is the tasty Ad, 9d, 2c. Your straight draw is now ready to go and you have Aces in the mid, so on the next draw when you pull a Qd and two bricks like the 4d 3s, you can put the Q up to add to your FL outs, toss a brick in the mid and play on.

    Two small pair in the mid is a wonderful thing, and I build with that in mind a lot. But Aces still have a place in the mid, especially when you get an A and a K or Q either dealt to you or on the first draw.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-19-2013 at 06:00 PM.
  30. #30
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Two small pair in the mid is a wonderful thing, and I build with that in mind a lot. But Aces still have a place in the mid, especially when you get an A and a K or Q either dealt to you or on the first draw.
    Yeah, this is true. Still, if I get dealt something like AQ332 then part of me wonders if it would be good to put both the Q and the A in front instead of putting just the Q in front with the A in the middle.
  31. #31
    I get dealt something like AQ332 then part of me wonders if it would be good to put both the Q and the A in front instead of putting just the Q in front with the A in the middle.
    Let's assume you're UTG and you have no more than 2 of any suit. The play you suggest would set
    AQ
    332
    ---

    You can hit either the Ace or the queen for FL and good royalties. You only need to draw a 2 or some pair (at least if it's a smallish pair) to get the 2-pair mid you want. Anything you draw will be bigger than 23, so the 2-pair draw you'll start in the bottom soon won't lose to the mid when (if) it gets there.

    A lot of good in that plan.

    It's just got to be better than the set some regular OFC players who are just transitioning into Pineapple would make:

    ---
    332
    AQ

    Yeah, this hand is probably not going to foul, and it will often make 2-pair in the bottom and the mid, but it's gonna be damn hard to make many royalties, let alone go to FL.

    The most obvious (and frequently played) aggro alternative is
    Q
    A
    332

    A lot to be said for this set too, and it's the play I would make. You can make FL with as few as 3 cards (Q, A, and 2 or 3). If you can catch an A early, you can use the mid to dump bricks (as mentioned above). If you catch a K early, you can put it up (as mentioned above). If you catch a 3 early, you can build a big hand that might turn into a monster. (I love having trips in the base after the first draw).

    There are at least two other sets some Pineapple player might make, although I'd argue that they're significantly worse. Some might set
    Q
    A332
    xxx

    This seems worse to me because an Ace on the next draw leaves you with an awkward choice, you only have one FL pair draw on top instead of two, and the only card for the mid that you love to see on the next draw is the 2. This just can't be as good as your set.

    Some might even play:
    Q
    233
    A

    This seems worse to me although not hopelessly bad. You're basically playing to make aces-up in the bottom, two small pair in the mid and QQ up. But a lot more has to go right than when you set
    Q
    A
    332

    I'd need mad mojo monkey to do the math for me to tell me whether this play really has a higher expectation over the long haul. I think I'm sticking with this set with this group for now, but if you start crushing me with your new set, I'm open to change when persuaded through loss.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-19-2013 at 07:29 PM.
  32. #32
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    Yeah, for me there are 3 choices:

    1. The obvious:
    Q
    A
    332

    2. The obvious without a kicker for the pair (we're utg):
    Q
    A2
    33

    3. The aggro choice that gets us a fl pair with 6 cards (3 queens and 3 aces) and a good start to our low 2 pair in the middle:
    AQ
    332
    ---
    Last edited by Eric; 12-19-2013 at 08:14 PM.
  33. #33
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    I just had a hand along these lines:

    Eric (dealer)



    Discard: 5 5 7 7




    Wazzup



    Discard: 2 9 7 3
  34. #34
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    just a one in a million hand

    Keith



    Discard: J 9 8 4


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 4 2 3 3
  35. #35
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    Did I play it right?
    my first fantasy land hand . should i have played it any different

    Keith (dealer)



    Discard: 3


    Wazzup



    Discard: 2 5 3 2
  36. #36
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    Keith,

    Make sure you use the c and s buttons in fl. They sort your 14 cards by card rank (c) and suit (s) and this makes it a lot easier to see what you have (saves time). We're trying to figure out how to label these buttons better to make things clearer.

    Yeah, I would have set it exactly like you did - boat royalties on the bottom and flush in the middle.

    Cheers,
    Eric
  37. #37
    You got all the value out of it that you could. I'm guessing you might be fairly new to pineapple, so here's a quick guide for how to set FL hands for max value. The key ideas are to sort by suit first and then by rank and make the hand with the most potential to win royalties and scoop.

    When playing online here, I find it fastest and easiest to click on the S button as soon as I get my FL cards. This arranges them by suit and allows me to quickly see if I have one or two flushes or--dare I hope?--a straight flush. Flushes are okay if that's the best you can do, and flush-over-flush is decent, but if flushes exist, they are just the fall-back option, the stuff you really want comes below:

    Then I click on the C button to arrange them by rank. I first look to see if I have trips or quads. If I have quads, that's my path back to FL, so I am going to set them and see what I can make from the rest.

    (Longer digression than usual in my posts: every once in a great while it will be advantageous to break quads. I had a hand in live play a few weeks ago in which I had quad aces, but made significantly more bonus by setting
    AAA
    A2345
    K-high flush
    I could have set quads, flush, 3 rags, but that only pays 18 bonus and gives away the top, surrendering any shot at a scoop. But this set paid 30 bonus and had decent scoop potential.)

    If there are no quads but you have three sets of trips, almost always playing the trips up the line will be the best play, since trips on top gets you back to FL. Of course, if you have one or two pairs to go with your trips, you'll want to make as many boats as you can.

    If you have two sets of trips, then see if you also have 2 pairs. If so you have boat-over-boat and are back in the land. If you have only one pair, setting the boat on bottom and your trips in the mid is often the best play, but be sure to see if flushes and/or straights in the mid are possible after the boat cards are gone.

    Since straights have potential to win hands, but never score big royalties, they are fallback sets. If you have to set one on the bottom, it's a sad trip to FL, although if you can make a big pair on top it will feel better.

    The same is true for hands with no flushes, straights, or trips, just some pairs. They suck pretty bad, but the key idea is to get the biggest pair you can on top. For example say you were to pick up:
    22 3 44 66 88 T J Q AA
    with no flush (and obviously, no straight) possible. You can still set
    AAQ
    6644J
    8822T
    Discard 3
    You make 9 bonus, which is better than some hands with a boat and no way to make other royalties.

    Also, say you get a hand like
    2 3 4 6 7 8 99 J QQ K AA
    Some beginners make QQ 99 on the bottom and AA in the mid, but playing up the line--AA bottom, QQ mid, 99 top--is much better because the 99 on top not only earns 4 in royalties, but also makes it much less likely that you will be scooped.


    Okay, that covers the path to finding the most royalties you can make, and usually you'll show the most profit by setting for the most royalties you can earn. But occasionally, and usually when you have a fairly poor hand for royalties, you'll show more of a profit by setting to give yourself a better chance at a scoop, or in the most dire cases, to minimize the chance of getting scooped.

    Let's look at an example of the first type. Say you pick up
    2c 2h 4d 4s 5h 5s 7s 8h Th Jh Qc Kc Ac
    The most royalties you can make is 4 by setting a j-high heart flush on the bottom, but then you will have only a pair of 4s in the mid and AKQ on top.
    Ac Kc Qc
    4s 4d 2c 5s 7s
    Jh Th 8h 5h 2h
    This has almost no scoop potential and is somewhat susceptible to being scooped. Setting
    5s 5h 7s
    4s 4d 2h 2c 8h
    Ac Kc Qc Jh Th
    gives away 2 points in royalties, but it has a much better chance (albeit still not a good chance) at scooping and is much less likely to be scooped.

    The second type happens when you get a truly godawful flushless hand like
    22 3 44 6 7 88 9 JJ Q K
    You could set it
    44K
    88Q97
    JJ226
    Discard 3

    or

    KQ9
    88447
    JJ226
    Discard 3

    It's an interesting choice because the first set wins the top against A-high, 22, and 33, but loses to a lot of 1-pair and weaker 2-pair mids, whereas the second set loses to A-high and small pairs on top, but does a lot better in the mid, where middle 2-pairs have a fighting chance. I think I'd lean toward the second set as being more likely to avoid being scooped, but I'm open to opposing arguments.

    Okay, I hope that helped. Go out and explore Fantasyland, in Pineapple you should be getting there a lot.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-22-2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: better sample hand for ending
  38. #38
    Eric's Avatar
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    OneByPhi,

    That is an excellent summary on how to play in fl! Thanks for sharing it.
  39. #39
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Did I set it right?

    MadMojoMonkey (dealer)
    A A 2 / 8 8 6 6 T / 5 5 5 J 3

    Eric
    K K / 5 / 8 9
  40. #40
    Your set wins 9 in royalties, will almost never get scooped, and has some chance of a scoop. The only other set to consider is
    88J
    AAT23
    55566
    This also wins 9 in royalties, so the question is which set is more likely to win more hands? The boat should do pretty well on the bottom, AAT23 will beat almost all 1-pair hands, but not 2-pair or better hands, and the 88 on top is pretty strong.

    I really wouldn't quibble with either set, but I might lean slightly toward this one.

    Oops, I didn't notice that you posted Eric's hand, my post assumed how to set the hand in the absence of information. After seeing his set, I would lean toward your route with the aces on top.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-22-2013 at 09:00 PM.
  41. #41
    Eric's Avatar
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    I couldn't decide whether to put the aces in the front or the middle on 6th and 7th, what do you think?

    Eric (dealer)



    Discard: T 6 2 T


    Wazzup



    Discard: 2 7 3 2
  42. #42
    Love the AA up top there.
  43. #43
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneByPhi View Post
    Love the AA up top there.
    Cool, thanks. It worked out that way - we needed that other Q for the straight on bottom.
  44. #44
    Eric's Avatar
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    I put AA in the middle for my 10th and 11th cards. Should I have put one of the aces in front instead and the 4 in the middle? I would have gotten to fl that way because one of my last 3 cards was a deuce which would have given me trips in the middle.

    Eric



    Discard: 8 Q 4 2


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 5 5 7 3
  45. #45
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    Did I play the 10th and 11th cards wrong? Should I complete the flush there and just put one queen in front?

    OneByPhi (dealer)



    Discard: 3 5 Q 4


    Eric



    Discard: T 5 2 2
  46. #46
    Eric's Avatar
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    We've been talking about 5 card sets when we have Q, K and A. What do you think of this one in pine?

    OneByPhi
    8 8 T / 3 9 Q K A / 4 4 J J J

    Eric (dealer)
    K Q / 2 A / 9
  47. #47
    Eric's Avatar
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    Should I have put the Q in front and waited for another card to complete the flush?

    Eric



    Discard: T A 2 3


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 2 2 6 2
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    We've been talking about 5 card sets when we have Q, K and A. What do you think of this one in pine?

    OneByPhi
    8 8 T / 3 9 Q K A / 4 4 J J J

    Eric (dealer)
    K Q / 2 A / 9
    I think this set has high FL potential. You might also consider
    Q / 2 A / K 9
    as the 2-straight flush might have some value although I like that play better with KJ or KT suited than K9 suited. I also get that you would give up the FL value of having both the K and Q up top in the set.

    I think either play is fine.
  49. #49
    Eric's Avatar
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    Would you set the king in the middle instead of the front?

    OneByPhi (dealer)
    X / 2 / 9 8 7 J

    Eric
    K Q / 7 5 / J
  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Would you set the king in the middle instead of the front?
    Setting
    K Q / 7 5 / J
    means you're playing for KK or QQ /2 pair like 7755 / whatever you can scare up starting with a bare J, most likely Jacks-up.

    Setting
    Q /K 7 5 / J
    means you're playing for QQ / KK or 7755 /whatever you can scare up starting with a bare J, most likely Jacks-up.

    Lately, I've been playing the KQ up (depending on the exact texture of the other 3 cards) because it gives you so much more flexibility on top to get to FL (6 FL draw outs vs. 3 FL draw outs). Admittedly, it's a lot harder to draw 2-pair starting from 75 than it is to draw one K or a 7 and a 5, and if you catch the K early it gives you a chance to toss bricks in the mid, but if you catch just the K or the Q (rather than both), playing KQ up still makes FL easier.

    If you change the Qh to the Qd and the 7d to the 9h, I think the case for
    Q /K 5 / J 9
    breaking up the K and the Q is pretty good because the suited one-gapper in the bottom can improve in so many ways, but in hands like the one you posted, I like the KQ on top.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 12-29-2013 at 11:21 PM.
  51. #51
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    Lately, I've been playing the KQ up (depending on the exact texture of the other 3 cards) because it gives you so much more flexibility on top to get to FL (6 FL draw outs vs. 3 FL draw outs).
    Yeah, I keep going back and forth with this. Fl is the name of the game with pine and it seems like it is easier to get QQ or KK in front than QQ by itself.
  52. #52
    Eric's Avatar
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    I dont like the way wazzup set.

    Eric (dealer)
    J / 5 / 7 8 9

    Wazzup
    2 / X / A K Q T
  53. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I dont like the way wazzup set.

    Eric (dealer)
    J / 5 / 7 8 9

    Wazzup
    2 / X / A K Q T
    Ya, there are several better alternative sets. Wazzup's play puts all the eggs in the basket of hitting a gutterball draw for broadway (which isn't even that big a hand if you hit it) and virtually gives up on making FL, despite being dealt 3 FL pair cards.

    Setting
    K Q / A / T 2
    looks to pair the K or Q (6 out FL pair draw) on top /draw an A in the middle or backdoor two small pair / get lucky on the bottom if spades start coming early, or bail into a tens-up 2-pair draw.

    Setting
    K Q / A 2 / T has the same basic plan in the top and mid but bails on trying to backdoor spades on the bottom and leaves things open to draw pairs and/or connectors.

    Im not a big fan of this play, but i don't think it's horrid to set
    K / T 2 / A Q
    You give up 3 FL outs on top to gain some chance of flushing the bottom or even the mid too and a fallback plan to make aces-up low and tens-up in the mid.
  54. #54
    Eric's Avatar
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    I got to choose from Q75 for my 10th and 11th cards, what do you think?

    OneByPhi (dealer)



    Discard: 5 3 K 4


    Eric



    Discard: 8 T 7 6
  55. #55
    Did I play it right?

    eastsidejohnny (dealer)



    Discard: 4 5 4 K


    Wazzup



    Discard: 4 6 5 2
  56. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I got to choose from Q75 for my 10th and 11th cards, what do you think?

    OneByPhi (dealer)



    Discard: 5 3 K 4


    Eric



    Discard: 8 T 7 6
    Playing the 5 low for trips and the 7 in the mid to make a pair is the safe play. You still leave yourself a chance to make FL on the river if you can hit one of the five Ks or Qs and one of the five 6s or As in the deck, and you virtually guarantee you won't foul.
  57. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by eastsidejohnny View Post
    Did I play it right?

    eastsidejohnny (dealer)



    Discard: 4 5 4 K


    Wazzup



    Discard: 4 6 5 2
    I would have set the 3 in the mid although it wouldn't really have changed the outcome.

    On the first draw when you pull 847, I think your play is fine because you leave flush over straight as a possibility and you have seven 2-pair outs for the mid. Yeah, if you had broken off the flush draw and played the 4 low on this draw and the other 4 low on the 3rd draw you would have made FL, but with 8 hearts still live at this point, it's too early to give up on the flush draw. When the 2nd draw brings a flush card and a Q, your play is automatic.

    On the third draw, your play is the only one with any upside (and it has big upside). Unless you intend to break everything off and just try to make a legal hand, there is no other play at this point. You could play the A up and the Q in the mid to try to win the top hand. WAZZUP's hand is already made with trips low and 2-pair mid, so he's not going to foul. He has the bare Q on top, so he's drawing live for FL and could easily draw something that beats you if you play the safety and make AQ3 up. It doesn't seem wise to make the "safe" play when there's a pretty good chance that you'll get scooped anyway.

    You need to draw an A and a heart on the end (not bloody likely, I'll grant you, but not impossible) to make FL. Just go for it.
  58. #58
    Did I set it right?

    mihai.muresanu (dealer)
    X / X / X

    festina91
    3 / 9 / 5 9 6
  59. #59
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OOP in HU OFC:
    A 3-flush is 55% to complete to a flush. When you don't have a 4-flush by 8th street, you're in pretty bad shape and need to re-evaluate what you're doing with the hand. Which means you want to start pairing it up. Setting a 9-high 3-flush is rough. When you abandon this hand and start pairing it, you're looking at a pair of 9's as your most likely "escape".

    If you're setting a 3-flush, you want high cards as good back-up options if the flush fails to connect.

    I'd have set
    5/6/993

    One pair + kicker is going to become at least 2 pair 44% of the time, and when it doesn't improve, it's still not an automatic foul.

    Equities to improve to an exact hand when setting pair + kicker in HU OFC, OOP:
    2 pair 13%
    trips 11%
    full house 17%
    quads 3%
  60. #60
    MMM, those are the odds for regular OFC, not pineapple, right?
  61. #61
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    yup
  62. #62
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?
    I had an interesting choice on 11th where I opted to break quads to protect my FL (and prevent foul).

    MadMojoMonkey (dealer)



    Discard: 6 7 J 3


    Wazzup



    Discard: 4 2 3 2
  63. #63
    I think the decision is pretty easy--even if heartbreaking. The quads on bottom don't do you any good if you foul your hand, and if you set JJ low and muck the 9 on the third draw, you see only 5 outs (two 6s, two 4s, and one 9). (You're actually drawing to only 4 outs because opp mucked a 4 on the first draw, but you don't know that, of course). You also have some chance to draw a pair on the last draw to make your hand; I'd need you to work out the exact odds, but I assume it doesn't add that much to your chances of avoiding the foul.

    Playing as you did guarantees FL, and playing the quads leads to fouling over half the time. You give up 10 points in royalties by mucking the J and playing the 9 in the mid, but since you will foul so often with the other play and because FL is worth roughly 13 points on average (as discussed in the other post), this play has to be better.
    Last edited by OneByPhi; 01-07-2014 at 02:03 PM.
  64. #64
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it's an interesting, but very straightforward play.

    I did just finish a round of 25 vs. WAZZUP with a score of 260, having 9 FL hands.
    average FL royalties (NOT net points) was 13.
  65. #65
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    ya, i agree, that's an interesting one and def the right play.
  66. #66
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    interesting game,
    gave it a try yesterday, not bad
    will be trying to learn it some more
  67. #67
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    Do u set broadway on bottom or do what I did in this pine hand?

    Eric



    Discard: 4 4 Q 4


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 3 2 2 7
  68. #68
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    I like your set, but I think I like Q / A / J T K more.
  69. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    I like your set, but I think I like Q / A / J T K more.
    If the KJT wasn't suited, I love your play, but since the KJT form 3 of a royal, GMML's set just has to be better.
  70. #70
    Eric's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?
    set mid pair on 8th and 9th instead of boat in back?

    Eric



    Discard: 2 T 2 2


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 4 2 7 6
  71. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Did I play it right?
    set mid pair on 8th and 9th instead of boat in back?
    This spot is pretty similar to the type of hand we have been discussing in the other thread. The big difference is that you don't already have a pair in the mid, so your play on the 2nd draw can only give you 1-pair in the mid, not 2-pair.

    When your second draw comes T33, the board looks like this:
    Eric
    Q
    9 6
    55T5
    Wazzup
    3
    98
    KJAA

    If you play the 33 in the mid, you still have 7 outs for 2-pair in the mid (two 9s, three 6s, two 3s) and the Qs are fully live. There are also three Ks and two As out, so there is some small chance that you will draw or backdoor KK or AA for the top. It's not the world's greatest FL set-up, but it doesn't suck. You also keep the hope for quads on the bottom alive and there are still two 10s in the deck.

    Your opp (okay, it's WAZZUP, and WAZZUP plays pretty badly, but checking out what your opp is up to is part of the process) has a hand with almost no upside; it's hard to see him making royalties or getting to FL with his set-up.

    If you play the T on the bottom to make the boat and one of the 3s in the mid, you have the same draw on the top that you have by playing 33 in the mid, and you still have 7 outs for 2-pair in the mid (two 9s, three 6s, two 3s), but you don't have a pair in the mid yet. You'd have 6 in royalties in the bank, and a hand that is unlikely to foul (since you are very likely to at least draw 1 pair eventually).

    I think this is a pretty close decision, and I can't say that either route is "wrong," but I think I'd lean toward the play you made, especially since opp doesn't look like he's going to punish you if you don't make the boat now.
  72. #72
    Eric's Avatar
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    In this pine hand I didn't set the 2nd king in front on 10th/11th opting to set 2 pair mid instead. Would you have set just a single pair mid and the 2nd king in front? It turns out we get to fl either way.

    Eric



    Discard: 4 J K 7


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 5 3 2 4
  73. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by festina91 View Post
    Did I set it right?

    mihai.muresanu (dealer)
    X / X / X

    festina91
    3 / 9 / 5 9 6
    If there are a lot of clubs dead, it might not be a bad play by playing x / 356 / 99 or something like that, and try to go for FL / 2 pair / 2pair
  74. #74
    Did I play it right?

    lherbert2014



    Discard: 6


    Wazzup (dealer)



    Discard: 7 7 3 3
  75. #75
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lherbert2014 View Post
    Did I play it right?

    lherbert2014



    Discard: 6
    yep, looks like you set your FL hand to get max value of +16 royalties, max of +22 with a scoop. i would have set it the same.

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