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  1. #1
    Eric's Avatar
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    Default ofc strategy for all streets

    We'll use this thread to discuss any street, not just the set of the first 5.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    If you have trips on the bottom, you want to get a kicker there ASAP. As soon as you draw a fully-live card, place it with the trips. This maximizes the equity you get to draw to a full house.

    If you have 2 pair on the bottom or trips with a kicker, you want to keep those hands open for as long as possible... to give maximum number of draws to improving the hand.

    In a 2- or 3-player game, 3-card straight draws lose almost all equity after only a couple of draws. As such, placing a 3-card SD is about as likely to end up as a pair-based hand as it is a straight. So setting a 3-card SD on the bottom can be risky if it doesn't have face cards.

    If you do set a 3-card SD, be mindful of the fact that you will need to pair that hand up if presented an opportunity after the 1st or 2nd draws. If the 3-card SD hasn't improved to a 4-card SD by 8th or 9th street you should probably abandon the straight.
  3. #3
    Eric's Avatar
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    Soon our game will have a button that people can press to ask if they played a hand correctly. This is the place where everyone can study the hand and give feedback.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    If you have 1-pair + kicker on the bottom, you should avoid placing a card that doesn't improve that hand unless you have to. Again, you want to maximize you chances to get a full house or quads.

    If your outs are already too blocked to get a strong hand like that, then you can place another card on the bottom to go for trips or 2-pair, but that's a MUCH weaker draw.
  5. #5
    Eric's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?

    I think I played this hand right. For awhile there was a chance of hitting fl.

    Eric




    Wazzup (dealer)


  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    This from the Wazzup AI thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
    Wazzup


    Here's what I'd have done:





    This is an excellent hand to go for FL when the Q comes on 6th street.
    7th: A in the mid gives even more protection for the top
    8th: K pairs the mid, making the FL Q's a real option.
    9th: 5 up top -> no help to mid or bottom, doesn't stop the Q's
    10th: A makes 2 pair in the mid. Changes nothing as far as fouling goes... want to avoid a full house.
    11th: 3 blocks a full house
    12th: 9 up top. If no straight, then foul... keep the draw alive.
    13th: luck box the gutshot.
  7. #7
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Did I play it right?

    I think I played this hand right. For awhile there was a chance of hitting fl.

    Eric


    Yep, this looks good to me. The only thing that made me think was the K up top, but Wazzup had already played a pair of K's on his bottom. So I definitely think it was better to put a dead K up top and keep the mid open for more pairs.
  8. #8
    Did I play it right?

    dupeto (dealer)




    Wazzup


  9. #9
    i was "FOUL" with the Royal Flush. Why???
  10. #10
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    It looks like that was in this series, round 508.

    I'll make sure our programmer knows about this. It's clear that you should not have fouled in this hand.
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    This bug has been squashed.

    Thank you, dupeto, for bringing this to our attention.

    We hope you get many more royal flushes.

    Wow... 548 rounds in 1 sitting. Any comments you have would be much appreciated!
  12. #12
    Eric's Avatar
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    dupeto,

    Congrats on the Royal Flush!

    Like MMM said, this has been fixed and we really appreciate you bringing it to our attention.
  13. #13
    Did I play it right?

    vince85




    Bben (dealer)


  14. #14
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    @Bben... the initial set is a close call.

    As played, I only have minor tweaks.
    On 6th, the 3 is still live, so I'd have played it in the mid.
    On 7th, the 8 is blocked by the bottom hand, so it goes up top.
    Other than that, wp.

    There is an argument to break the pr 5's on the set.
    Since there's already 1 dead 5, you can place one of them on the bottom.
    Your equity to draw to a 3-card OESD when 3 of your lower end outs are dead on 5th IP in a HU game... 51.4%
    Your equity to draw to a fully live GSSD ... 53.9%

    So you'd be slightly more likely to make a straight on the bottom if you draw to a gutshot.
    However... it seems reasonable that having a pair of 5's (even if they were completely dead) has more equity than the 2.5% loss in straight equity.
  15. #15
    Eric's Avatar
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    Did I play it right on 12th? 4 outs for 12 pt boat royalties in the middle vs just 1 out for fl. I went for the middle boat...

    Eric (dealer)





    Wazzup


  16. #16
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Yeah... The general consensus seems to be that FL is worth ~12 points.

    So 1 out to 12 points is worse than 4 outs to 12 points.
  17. #17
    Did I play it right?

    dawgboy





    MeGrimlock (dealer)


  18. #18
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock View Post
    Did I play it right?




    5th -> With the A partially blocked, I'd leave the K in back for more odds on a big pair. the 4 is blocked, and small, so up top.
    6th -> 5 up top, since it's already blocked, and useless in any spot. It blocks FL, but this hand is rarely going to get there already.
    7th -> Q in the bottom. It's still live. No point in closing off the top w/o a pair and the mid can protect the top if it also pairs.
    8th -> 3 to the top. Top can only be won with the case 5, and the 3 can't beat the 8's if it pairs alone.
    9th -> 6 to the mid. Finally a pair!
    10th -> K to the bottom. Top hand is won (bottom hand is lost) Fight for the mid.
    11th -> 9 to the mid. We can't beat Villain's mid and avoid foul otherwise.
    12th -> J to the mid to avoid foul.
    13th -> 7th to the bottom.


    If you had FL, though... 2 straights, w/ K9 on top. Not too shabby.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 11-30-2013 at 09:15 PM.
  19. #19
    Eric's Avatar
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    MeGrimlock,

    When dawgboy set trips in the middle on 10th street it made it very likely for him to foul. I thought that was the most questionable play of the hand.
  20. #20
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock View Post
    Did I play it right?
    so many different styles. i would have set

    K
    AT
    64
  21. #21
    Did I play it right?

    MeGrimlock





    dawgboy (dealer)


  22. #22
    Did I play it right?

    festina91





    Wazzup (dealer)


  23. #23
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock View Post
    Did I play it right?

    MeGrimlock





    dawgboy (dealer)


    interesting hand, i like the gamble in the middle with your 4 to flush in the back. there are 4 dead diamonds though, leaving only 5 outs with 3 cards to come. not sure what the "cut off" is there.
  24. #24
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by festina91 View Post
    Did I play it right?

    festina91





    Wazzup (dealer)


    you should never set 3 low up front like you did. it does almost guarantee you won't foul, but it makes it very unlikely to win as well. if you play OFC to not foul, you won't win. you have to set your hand with a plan in mind, and sometimes have to take chances improving your middle before your back.

    also, when you fill your top like that early on, it makes it very difficult for you to play out the rest of the hand. it forces you to choose between the middle or bottom on every street, and sometimes the cards you draw help neither.

    i think the J and K are okay on the bottom, but then i would have done 83 in mid and 6 up top. i might also do J / K3 / 86.

    welcome to FTR and hope you enjoy playing OFC!
    Last edited by givememyleg; 12-04-2013 at 07:41 PM.
  25. #25
    Did I play it right?

    lukerad89





    Wazzup (dealer)


  26. #26
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukerad89 View Post
    Did I play it right?

    lukerad89





    Wazzup (dealer)


    only thing i would have done differently was putting the 6 in the middle on #12 instead of the top. you already have aces locked up with a KQ up top, so keep your fantasy land opportunity open. you'd kick yourself if 13 had been a K or Q.

    edit - and i'm an idiot, as MMM points out below. nothing to see here.
    Last edited by givememyleg; 12-06-2013 at 11:00 AM.
  27. #27
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    only thing i would have done differently was putting the 6 in the middle on #12 instead of the top. you already have aces locked up with a KQ up top, so keep your fantasy land opportunity open. you'd kick yourself if 13 had been a K or Q.
    6 in the middle is a foul. It makes Aces up in the mid, with 4's up on the bottom.

    EDIT: I think luke played it well.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-05-2013 at 06:18 PM.
  28. #28
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    6 in the middle is a foul. It makes Aces up in the mid, with 4's up on the bottom.

    EDIT: I think luke played it well.
    so it is, good on you, luke. i'll be over here giving bad advice.
  29. #29
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?

    Seemed awkward right from the set. With my opponent having a perfectly live gutter on the bottom, putting KK on the bottom and the dead 98 in the middle seemed really bad.

    KoRnholio (dealer)





    Wazzup


  30. #30
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoRnholio View Post
    Did I play it right?

    Seemed awkward right from the set. With my opponent having a perfectly live gutter on the bottom, putting KK on the bottom and the dead 98 in the middle seemed really bad.

    KoRnholio (dealer)


    I think splitting the Kings was a massive mistake. KK4 on the bottom has great equity to get trips or better.

    I wouldn't worry too terribly much about the other cards being blocked, I'd put the 8 up top and the 9 in the mid, just to keep from playing 2 blocked cards in the mid.
  31. #31
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    I felt putting KK4 on the bottom would just cap my maximum hand on the ~60% of the time my opponent makes a straight on the bottom. At least with K94ddd I have a good chance of making the flush to trump the likely straight, especially with zero dead diamonds. I also have the option of bailing out and pair up the bottom to avoid fouling myself.
    Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
  32. #32
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    KK4 w/ 5 outs on 5th street, HU, IP is 23.7% to improve to full house or quads and rarely fouls when it misses.
  33. #33
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    Are you sure that 23.7% figure is correct? That seems high. I'd have guessed it was around a 15% shot.

    I just did some math and I think it comes it at 12.1%?

    Chance of hitting zero 4's and zero kings = 42/47 * 41/46 .. 35/40 = 37.5%
    Chance of just one card (either a 4 of K) = 1 * 42/46 * 41/45 .. 36/40 = 50.4%

    Thus the chance of hitting both = 100 - 37.5 - 50.4 = 12.1%

    Feels like I am missing something on the numbers for hitting just one out (multiply by 9 somewhere for the combinations of which street the one out is hit?), but 12.1% seems about right to me.
    Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
  34. #34
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You have 5 outs, with 8 cards to come from a deck of 42.

    You only count a success if you draw at least 2 out of the 5 outs.

    equity = 1 - <odds of drawing 0 outs> - <odds of drawing 1 out>

    <odds of drawing 0 outs>
    C(5,0) * C(37,8) / C(42,8) = 32.7%

    <odds of drawing 1 out>
    C(5,1) * C(37,7) / C(42,8) = 43.6%


    equity = 1 - 32.7% - 43.6% = 23.7%

    That 43.6% of the time you have either 2 pair or trips.

    EDIT:
    Using the mathematical approach you used, we'd find the same:

    Chance of hitting zero 4's and zero kings =
    37/42 * 36/41 .. 30/35 = 32.7%

    Chance of just one card (either a 4 of K) =
    8 * 37/42 * 36/41 .. 31/36 * 5/35 = 43.6%
    that 8 at the beginning is because we don't care on which of the 8 streets we draw the out.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-06-2013 at 11:49 PM.
  35. #35
    Eric's Avatar
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    On 10th do you set QQ for fl? On 11th do you set trips in the middle or the flush in back? I set the flush in back but it turns out trips in the middle would have brought me to fl instead of a foul.

    Eric





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  36. #36
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    On 10th do you set QQ for fl?
    It's close. Playing the Q up top is aggressive, but you're likely to foul

    In the mid: 8 outs, 3 times on 10th is 58% to improve.
    On the bottom: 8 outs, 3 times on 10th is 58% to improve.

    So (ignoring the problem that you have overlapping outs, which means the equities aren't independent) you expect to achieve both successes 58% * 58% = 33.5% of the time.
    Call it 1/3 chance of success, valued at 7 + 4 = 11 royalties and (sometimes 2 more trips in the mid) plus 12 for FL
    11 + 12 = 23 points expected in royalties.
    1/3 * 23 = 7.7
    You're opponent is extremely unlikely to foul, so that's pretty reliably a -6 when you foul (not a 0 if both foul).
    2/3 * -6 = -4

    A very rough estimate of the EV of playing the Q up top is 7.7 - 4 = 3.7

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    On 11th do you set trips in the middle or the flush in back?
    If you play the 8 on the bottom, you've secured the bottom, and have 6 outs on 11th in the mid, for 35%
    If you play the 8 in the middle, you've secured the middle, and have 7 outs on 11th on the bottom, for 41%

    Now we can see that there were 3 outs on 10th street that I didn't account for correctly. A 9 8
    In this case, with equal outs in both hands, wherever you play these outs is dependent on your opponent's play.
    If your opponent blocks an out to one of your hands, you complete that hand.
    If opponent doesn't block any of your outs, then it's a coin flip for your decision, because the equity to avoid foul is the same either way.

    So on 10th, you have 8 outs in both of your hands, but since 3 of those outs remove an out for the other hand when they're played, the equity would be less than the 58%.

    That rough estimate of the EV is going to go down as that actual equity is less than 58%. How much it goes down isn't clear to me at this time.

    If none of those 3 outs were in the deck, it would be -1.2 for EV, by the same rough estimate method above... and the assumed value of FL is going to matter in these near 0 EV calculations.
  37. #37
    Eric's Avatar
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    Cool, I had a feeling these decisions where close.
  38. #38
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    Did I play it right?

    aka_red





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  39. #39
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_red View Post
    Did I play it right?
    aka_red




    I'd have played the 7 on 7th street up top, since it's once blocked.
    I'd have played the T on 9th street in the mid, since it's not blocked.

    On 12th street, you left yourself open to foul by not playing the 9 up top.

    This causes a foul by catching broadway, but there were a lot of outs that prevented foul, and more outs that cause foul up top if you play 12th in the mid.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-13-2013 at 10:36 PM.
  40. #40
    Did I play it right?

    manito





    Wazzup (dealer)


  41. #41
    Eric's Avatar
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    manito,


    Your 5 card set looks good.


    The A shouldn't go in the middle on 9th street
    because it gives you a higher flush in the middle
    than the flush on the bottom (ace high with jack kicker vs ten kicker).
    Any other heart could have gone in the middle on 9th.
    It is true that you still could have gotten the J or K to save you on 10th to 13th but it is more likely you'd get 3, 4, 7 instead and you did (4 on 10th).

    Again, I'm ok with the way the hand was played up until the 9th card - that A should have gone up front.
  42. #42
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    manito: I agree with Eric on 9th street. I would gamble in that spot with any heart other than the A.

    However, the biggest mistake in this hand is 10th street. Putting the lower flush in the back is a guaranteed foul. Place the 4 up top and hope you draw the J or K.
  43. #43
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    This is my first time playing, but seems interesting.

    Did I play it right?

    !Luck (dealer)





    Wazzup


  44. #44
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by !Luck View Post
    This is my first time playing, but seems interesting.

    Did I play it right?

    !Luck (dealer)





    Wazzup


    I agree with your set. I think 6th and 7th streets were fine.

    On 8th, things get tricky. I don't think it's best to make a 4-flush in the middle when you have a 3 flush on the bottom. This is a very aggressive play. I'd probably play the 3 up top in light of this.

    Then on 9th, I don't want to close the top, and the 4 is live, so I'd play it to the mid.

    On 10th, the J in the mid makes a pair.

    On 11th, it's easy to make a pair of A's vs. hoping for a back door flush on the last 2 streets... This is a foul-saver.

    On 12th, I'd play the 7 on the bottom, leaving the top open to beat WAZZUP's top, since no draw can win the bottom and no draw can foul.





    ***
    If you'd made that play on 8th in pineapple OFC (like the coming tournament), you'd have been far more likely to make that bottom flush.

    In regular OFC, the first thing to learn is how to avoid foul. Once you see how to do that, you can start to see what's a reasonable amount of aggression when you need it.

    In pineapple OFC, you can and should play much more aggressively, since you'll get to discard 4 cards throughout the round.
  45. #45
    KoRnholio's Avatar
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    Did I play it right?

    FL gambol good or bad?

    KoRnholio (dealer)





    Wazzup


  46. #46
    Eric's Avatar
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    KoRnholio,


    I'd probably set it the way you did if it was a pineapple game.
    In regular ofc some would say to just set the first 5 cards as a made flush in back.
  47. #47
    Did I play it right?

    Andmonkies42 (dealer)





    Wazzup


  48. #48
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    Andmonkies42,


    Putting a queen in the front is usually a good thing. I would probably switch the 8 and the Q on the five card set as follows:
    Q / 8 / 9 6 K
    It is true that Wazzup showed you a queen so there were only 2 left at that point but I would still put it in front.


    I think Wazzup should have put the ace in the middle instead of the back on 6th street.


    You paired the eights in front on sixth street. This is a lot of risk for just 2 royalty points. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes pair queens, kings and aces early which is even riskier but the payoff is much bigger - getting to fl is huge.


    Wazzup should have paired the fives in the middle instead of the back on 7th.
    You pairing the queens on 7th makes sense.


    Wazzup was totally drunk on tenth to pair the tens and make himself foul.


    I think you played the hand out fine after 6th street.


    Cheers,
    Eric
  49. #49
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    Did I play it right?

    Boxman444 (dealer)





    Wazzup


  50. #50
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxman444 View Post
    Did I play it right?

    Boxman444 (dealer)


    I would have set this hand 8 / K 4 / 5 2

    As played, your biggest issue was placing the straight in the middle on #10. This required you to go runner runner in the back to a full house or quads to not foul. I don't know the exact math but you made it almost a certainty to foul there.
    Last edited by givememyleg; 12-30-2013 at 08:47 AM.
  51. #51
    Did I play it right?

    jefboyardee





    Wazzup (dealer)


  52. #52
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jefboyardee View Post
    Did I play it right?

    jefboyardee


    I set this differently, either

    Q / A / 4 5 6
    or
    Q / A 4 / 5 6

    This helps prepare your hand for FL if you happen to draw good early on. I think I like the 456 better in regular OFC but would put 56s in the back in pineapple.

    As played, you drew really bad for how your hand was set. On 11th street, I would have put the 9 up top. Your hand is pretty weak but I don't like sealing 9 high in the middle.
  53. #53
    Eric's Avatar
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    I agree with GMML - Q in the front and A in the middle.
  54. #54
    Did I play it right?

    b1oshock (dealer)





    Wazzup


  55. #55
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Looks good, b1oshock
  56. #56
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    I would have set the 2 in the middle instead of up top.
  57. #57
    Eric's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'd set the deuce mid.
  58. #58
    Did I play it right?

    newtoofcp





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  59. #59
    Eric's Avatar
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    newtoofcp,


    I fill up the mid before setting the 6 in front on 10th street. In other words, the 6 goes mid instead of front.


    Cheers,
    Eric
  60. #60
    Did I play it right?

    Allmightwin





    Wazzup (dealer)


  61. #61
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Looks OK. Splitting the pair of 5's for a 3-flush is a bit risky, but not bad. The pair is about as likely to become 2-pair or better as the 3-flush is to complete to a flush. However, there are trips, boats and quads in that 2-pair OR BETTER, which make it a much safer play, while still being able to build to a strong hand by the end.

    Of course, you developed to double flushes, so there's the benefit of playing the 3-flush, too... but it's a very rare outcome.

    You could have been a bit more aggressive on the set, by placing the A up top and going for a FL board.
  62. #62
    Did I play it right?

    X666X





    Wazzup (dealer)


  63. #63
    Eric's Avatar
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    I like splitting 33-22 on the 5 card set for pineapple.
    In regular ofc it might be better to keep them together.
    I'd put the T in back on 6th.
    I'd put the 5 in mid or back but not front on 7th.
  64. #64
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Yeah. Play on 6th is marginal, given the T is once blocked by Villain's set. My rule is to get a live kicker on the bottom pair as soon as possible.

    I think the play on 7th is a facepalm. I'd play the 5 to the bottom. It's small, and 2 small pair on the bottom can restrict growth of the hand, but a lonely pair of 3's is so much worse. Also, you limit your options for how the hand can grow by closing the top so early.
  65. #65
    Did I play it right?

    like2play





    Wazzup (dealer)


  66. #66
    Did I play it right?

    like2play (dealer)





    Wazzup


  67. #67
    Eric's Avatar
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    like2play,


    I'm not a fan of setting 4 A in front on the first hand.
    Typically ace goes in the middle in regular ofc.


    I'm not a fan of setting 5 in front on the second hand.


    Cheers,
    Eric
  68. #68
    Did I play it right?

    Fillibuster





    kollusionist (dealer)


  69. #69
    Eric's Avatar
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    Typically I like ace in the middle instead of the bottom in regular ofc 5 card sets.


    You start with bad cards - some might set the gutter on the bottom and the ace in the middle.
  70. #70
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Both gutters are blocked, so ~47% equity to catch.

    The problem with advising this hand is that Hero luck-boxed a flush on the bottom, which was unlikely*, so any advice is going to end up with a worse outcome.

    In short, I can't conceive of any way I would actually play this that doesn't result in a foul. So I'd say you played it perfectly.

    *equities on the bottom flush (note that at no time was Hero a favorite, even when he made the 4-flush)
    street equity
    5th - 14.6%
    6th - 7.6%
    7th - 17.4%
    8th - 11.9%
    9th - 6.7%
    10th - 18.4%
    11th - 46.9%
    12th - 100%
  71. #71
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Both gutters are blocked, so ~47% equity to catch.

    The problem with advising this hand is that Hero luck-boxed a flush on the bottom, which was unlikely*, so any advice is going to end up with a worse outcome.
    You're right about the blockers - the gutter is too risky for me.

    It is ok if our advice is worse on this particular hand so long as it is better in the long run. I still think the ace belongs in the middle here.
  72. #72
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You're right about the blockers - the gutter is too risky for me.

    It is ok if our advice is worse on this particular hand so long as it is better in the long run. I still think the ace belongs in the middle here.
    Yeah, A to the mid, the 5 is blocked, so put that in the mid. The highest 2 values left are 7 and 4, so bottom, and surely we leave the top open and clog up the mid with the 3.
    Then on 6th, the K goes up top.
    K / A53 / 74

    Then we get to play a blocked 6 and a blocked J and a blocked T. At least the Q is live, but we're now facing the final 3 draws with no pairs, yet.

    After that... well, what can you do? Sure the final 3 draws make pairs, but you've already had to do so much damage control... You can't pair the K, since there's no way to protect it, so that's really only 2 useful pairs at the end of it all. Given the start, the best possible outcome is
    K-high / pair of 5's / Pair of Q's
  73. #73
    Did I play it right?

    GTdave4





    Wazzup (dealer)


  74. #74
    Eric's Avatar
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    GTdave4,

    I've been playing nothing but pineapple these days so I'm not even sure what to tell you on the regular ofc side.
  75. #75
    Did I play it right?

    Brezlpeter





    joelle (dealer)


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