KJo flops second pair, call down small bets

8-handed 1-1, two players to my left have recently left the table.

I'm two off the button with KJo, 100BB stack. Two limpers in front, second of whom is a big fish but often folds to raises PF (often as in, like 50-60% of the time). First limper is kind of nitty and is also likely to limp/fold. I raise to 8BB (my standard open raise in this session was 6-7BB), obv hoping for big norwegian fish to come along.

BU cold calls, and all others fold. BU is one who will happily open shove A8 for 40BB PF. Near the beginning of the session he did this for 12BB and was lightly called by the guy to his left with a 100BB stack, I then put on a squeeze with ATo and folded out the caller and iso'd the initial shover and he turned over A8o. Anyway my point is his calling range is probably super wide.

Flop Q J x rainbow.

I check. He bets 7. I call.

Turn blank. I check, he bets 7 again. I call.

River pairs the Q. I check, he bets 15, I call.

I didn't cbet flop because the flop seems to hit his range pretty hard, but on the other hand he would probably peel a street with JT or 88, so maybe betting was still better. He made such a piss weak bet that I couldn't fold, ditto on turn, and river pairing made it less likely that he holds a Q. Thoughts? Also is preflop too marginal?

i'd just cbet flop. this monkey probably calls us with any pair, any 4+ out draw and maybe even a naked overcard. as played vs these sizings i guess i'm calling down.

your line is fine but don't understand the logic itt

1) fish often limp/folds pre so you raise extra big... hoping he'll come along?

2) if BU range is 'super wide' it has a lot more than Qx (??) so I am unclear how this flop hits his range 'pretty hard'.

re: 2) i guess some possibly flawed assumptions were made that broadway type hands were going to be a large part of his range. he likes hands like K9 more than 67. maybe i was way off...

and 1) extra big because that's simply what i had been raising normally all session in order to increase chances of getting heads up. I find I have to adjust raise sizes on a per-session basis because people will start calling 10bb PFRs without giving it pause when the dynamic is as such, and other nights 4bb is quite enough when there are enough nits around. i figured a raise to 6 for example would have a significantly higher chance of ending up being called in multiple places. i thought that if this fish likes his hand enough to call 6 he would also call 8.

1) the point is why are you raising if the goal is to play against the fish who you expect to fold to the raise?

2) if he has K9 you definitely want to bet. You post makes a lot of sense if you have nothing, not much sense with second pair.

you should also post BU stack size.

He had about 60bb.

1) do you think then that it's better to limp behind here with KJo? Or even fold? I figured he folds about maybe half his range if I raise which still is a very wide range, but then again maybe KJo is too marginal vs his calling range?

2) I did have a read on him though that he likes to stab at pots when checked to, so I figured 2nd pair would serve well as a bluff catcher

I don't quite understand what you mean about the post making sense if I have nothing, could you please elaborate?

the iso is fine, I seriously question you have a good enough sample to know that he limp/folds exactly "50-60%". He's a fish so his limp/calling range is more likely to be wide enough that isoing here is correct.

you're right that the live sample rate and trying to put people on pokertracker hud style percentages is probably not something worth investing too much brain power in, but what more can we do other than try to make intuitive educated guesses? and yes i miss my damn hud sometimes.

and double posting on the same subject, i need to work on my mental note-taking skills. do you guys keep a notebook or something to scribble stuff down after sessions? i feel like there's so much information leaking out of my brain between sessions that this notebook idea seems like a really sensible plan.

Originally Posted by eugmac

you're right that the live sample rate and trying to put people on pokertracker hud style percentages is probably not something worth investing too much brain power in, but what more can we do other than try to make intuitive educated guesses? and yes i miss my damn hud sometimes.

ofc you make educated guesses, and with the incomplete information we always have, you just have to make the best assumption you can based on the information you have.

I just think in this case it's safer to assume that someone who's limping a lot is going to have a limp/calling range that's still pretty f'n wide, even if you've seen them limp/fold a few times. Not as wide as someone who limp/calls all the time, I'd just maybe take out crap like 84s or 86o from his limp/calling range. I think that assumption is safer than the assumption that his limp/calling range has KJ crushed or something.

Way better to raise than limp along; KJo is not going to play well 5 ways.

I'd bet the flop and c/c or c/f based on how he bets after that (also depends on stack size).