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Chopping the Prize Pool

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  1. #1

    Default Chopping the Prize Pool

    This has probably been asked about a thousand times, and honestly, this isn't even a question, just a rant about how I F-ING HATE CHOPPING TOURNAMENT PRIZE POOLS

    I was in a tournament the other night in a small, local card room. It's a $60 buy-in with one optional re-buy for another $60. The room rakes 25% from both buy-ins.

    I am in the game for $120, there were about 27-30 players, and we're down to the final five. Payouts are 1) $880 2) $550 3) $350 and 4) $185

    Once the 6th place players busts, one player suggests that we take $30 bucks off of 1st - 3rd, plus $10 off of fourth place so we can pay $100 to fifth place.

    All four players agree, and I dissent. A move that is met with MUCH unpopularity. I was berated for the next half hour.

    "Come on man, are you REALLY that greedy?"
    "You really won't just take $30 bucks off?"
    "Just do it so we don't have to play with a bubble anymore"
    "I think everyone here has grinded for five hours and DESERVES SOMETHING"
    "I had a big stack at the Final table the other night and chopped six ways cause everyone else wanted to!"

    For me, it's not really about the $30. It's more about the principle. 1) The house only puts $90 of my $120 buy-in into the prize pool. 2) Four places is ALREADY alot for a 25-30 player tournament.

    When teh guy to my right started mouthing off about being "greedy" and how "He had to do it the night before", I spoke up. I politely, but firmly addressed teh table and said "Guys, seriously, this is not cool, and I'm not chopping!"

    After that it quieted down. A young kid two places to my left, folded to a big pre-flop bet with AJs and said "If we were paying fifth place, I might play this hand". Later, the uber-loudmouth car salesman across the table folded JJ on the button pre-flop (five-handed), because "he didn't want to flip for his whole stack on the bubble"

    After I saw those two plays I was SURE that my decision not to chop was a good one. Drunk asshole busted in fifth and loudmouth carsalesman busted fourth. I ended up in third when I pushed pre-flop with AJs and the middle stack next to me called with K8o. His wife was bugging him to leave and he said something about having a two hour drive home and it was already after midnight. He took me out and then chopped the top two places with the kid.

    Generally, my policy is to never chop. I've been in 6-max SNG's that pay 500 and 300, and will often chop for 400 each in those. I once agreed to a 6-way chop in a tournament that paid the top 3. The chop offered me double my buy-in and I only had 3 BB's left.

    Other than that, my general rule is to leave the prize pool as-is.

    Is there EVER a reason to manipulate the prize pool in tournaments like these?
  2. #2
    If someone offers you a chop that is greater than your equity in the tournament (including the edge you assume you have) then take it. Otherwise I would never chop. Live players are extremely weak tight and even more so on the bubble. Take advantage of this and crush. especially if your stack is above average never agree to an even chop or taking money of the top few places to pay xth place and end the bubble.

    I deal and tbh almost every small tournament gets chopped and usually someone is making a huge mistake in terms of $ev by chopping and have no idea. Sure you may get berated and maybe its a better use of your time to chop than drop that 10-50$ edge in a few hours or whatever but strictly from an $value perspective take the above advice in 1st paragraph.

    Edit, I once saw a chop take place where 2nd place nearly got less than 2ND place prize money when they were headsup.... lold. He ended up voluntarily taking 2nd too. with like a 3-1 deficit but still LOL.
  3. #3
    It just bothers me how some players feel that agreeing to a chop is the friendly/ethical thing to do. And they take it personally if you don't chop. It's almost like they KNOW they are going to finish in the bottom or out of the money, and they take it as a personal affront when you don't agree to share your larger prize with them.

    By not agreeing to give up prize money, I've basically insulted them, and effectively said that I have no interest in any kind of friendly or social interaction with you.

    It's peer pressure, and it's tough. And it's RAMPANT at the cardroom in my town. It's a small town with a loyal and regular base of players, and there seems to be some kind of unspoken agreement among the majority of them that the prize money is for everybody to share. It's beyond ridiculous.

    I was once 3-handed, and there wasn't a huge gap between 1st and 2nd. One of my opponents was a solid player and a decent guy. The other guy was a loose-passive gambling addicted mega-tard. I decided then, that if I made it heads-up with the mega-tard, I would chop. But if I got heads up with the solid player, I would play it out. My reasoning was 1) I only get out to play 2-3 times per month, 2) The whole REASON (other than $$) that I'm playing is for competitive challenge. 3) There is just enough money at stake to make a heads up match interesting.

    In other words, my refusal of a chop was actually a COMPLIMENT to him. We got heads up, he offered a chop, and I declined. He just shook his head, sighed, and said 'whatever'. And when I tried to explain he was just like "no, it's fine, I get it". And when I won, he refused to shake my hand, and stormed off.

    Seriously. WTF is wrong with these people?
  4. #4
    Uh, it seems really backwards that you'd choose to chop with the fish who you're likely to beat heads-up, and refuse to do it with a solid player, who is even a nice guy. I don't follow your reasoning at all.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    Uh, it seems really backwards that you'd choose to chop with the fish who you're likely to beat heads-up, and refuse to do it with a solid player, who is even a nice guy. I don't follow your reasoning at all.
    Well first of all, I don't know why it's relevant that he's a nice guy. It seems to suggest that I should be willing to chop with a nice guy, because that's what nice guys do. And if I chop, then I'm a nice guy too. But if I don't chop, I'm not a nice guy.

    Second. As I mentioned, the bad player is a loose calling station, and is just overall extra-extra-bad. There is only like 30 or 35 BB's on the table, so in that situation, I felt that playing that guy heads up was really just a coin flip.

    The "nice guy" is someone who might actually try and play, and be competitive. I don't think he's better than I am, so I don't feel like I'm losing any value by not chopping.

    Really, the circumstances were:
    1) I don't get out to play poker as often as I like, so it just cuts into my fun if I cut the game short.
    2) Other than the obvious profit motivation - I also play poker because I enjoy a competitive challenge (which I could actually get from this player, and not the other guy.)

    The decision not to chop with the 'nice guy' but to chop with the bad player wasn't really about money (though I still believe that any chop is -EV). It was about me not wanting to go home early, and wanting to indulge in an interesting game and challenge a decent player
  6. #6
    Don't worry about what other people think. That said be as nice about it as possible to keep the fish wanting to come back. I know that refusing to chop thing puts you in an awkward position but if you can manipulate the bubble situation then it doesn't make sense for you to chop & end the bubble. As a good gambler you shouldn't do anything that doesn't make sense for you financially speaking.
    Their is an art to selling a chop. As a gambler you need to put yourself first during these negotiations. You can make money by offering chip ratio related chops as a chip leader and arguing for even chops with less favorable chip situations due to the "luck" factor. You can also offer that they pay 5th place out of their prizes if it is that important to them and you can earn your full payout. Make them put their money where their mouth is. Kinda like welfare: it is always easier to pay the downtrodden with someone else's money.
    Try nicely explaining the money doesn't mean much but this is your only weekly poker outlet and you don't want to cut yourself short by ending the tournament early. You should get as much play as you want when the house is already raking 25%.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  7. #7
    Thanks.

    I'm not too worried about what other people think. I decline chops all the time. To teh point where I've been at the final table, someone looked at me and said "Well YOU'RE here, so I guess we're not chopping". I've done a pretty good job of cultivating a reputation as "the guy who never chops"

    But just the idea that there is an entire room full of people who chop often enough to know who is amenable and who isn't just makes me wonder why don't win more than I do.

    I'm just having a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that there is an unspoken etiquette that says chopping is good karma. Is this a common issue that other people run into? Or is this a problem specific to this particular card room because it's player base is mostly loyal, regular, small-town, tight-community type folks.
  8. #8
    bikes's Avatar
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    when player base is mostly loyal reg small town peoples i usually dont have a problem taking a slightly -ev chop simply because i want to play cash. no idea if thats the case for you as i think my ev in deep stack cash games is far better than 10-20bb donkaments with 4-5 people left.

    but to your point do what you want. doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. if you think its a great +ev move then take it.

    ?wut
  9. #9
    I would just chop pretty much all the time, mostly for the reasons bikes noted and also because you don't have much of an edge with 15 BBs to everyone else's 8 BBs or whatever.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  10. #10
    rpm's Avatar
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    when the house is taking 25%, i'm after any and every morsel of EV i can find in that tournament. if someone offers me a chop which i think is greater than my EV in the tourney - i'm taking it. if 5 guys are keen to chop and i think i have a higher EV in playing for the pre-allocated payouts - "sorry guys i'd prefer to just play this one out".
  11. #11
    When the house is taking that much, your best bet is to probably decline playing altogether.

    Like bikes said, you probably have a bigger edge playing cash with these tourney donks, and if you can get them to put their winnings on the table in a 100-200 BB game, you're probably better off firing up the cash game quicker.

    That said, if the tards are going to open fold JJ, by all means exploit them.

    I don't think I've ever declined an offer to chop online; there were certainly an occasional short-handed or HU situation where I probably would have.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  12. #12
    I would love to get some of these guys in a deep cash game. Unfortunately, state law doesn't allow no-limit cash games. Instead, they offer 2-4 spread limit, and that's usually a mixed game (I have another rant here somewhere about the ridiculous games that get played in this thing.

    The other option is a "timed tournament". That's where you can pay $50 and get a stack of 4,000 chips. You play a tournament for three 20 minute levels with blinds of 100/100, 100/200, and 200/400. At the end of the three levels you "cash out" with every 100 chips being worth $1. So basically you pay $50 for every $40 in chips, and you have one hour to make money in a very short-stacked cash game.
  13. #13
    o i c
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  14. #14
    lol at laws banning NL games specifically.

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