Check my BB line?

I just started playing limit last night and am wondering if my line is fine here or not?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 3.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J, 4, 6 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO raises, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 2 (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Well, outside of you not playing your draw correctly how you want me to play? Got to bet this flop and possible even 3bet if you get more than 3 callers. Bet the turn to build the pot, slowdown if raised and once you hit your straight on the river you're golden. You missed like 4 BB though in this pot looks like.

Thats why I'm posting these hands here, to learn how to play my draws

Am I always wanting to raise draws or what?

Have you read Small Stakes Hold'em?

I don't think this was so bad. Sure, you should have bet the flop, but I think betting the turn here is a losing play ... 4 way pot with probably 6 outs(2c and 7c severely tainted), why build a pot you are going to lose 85% of the time?

No I haven't read Small Stakes Holdem. I have HOH1 and HOH2 and TOP only right now, soon to get HOH3 upon release.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

I don't think this was so bad. Why build a pot you are going to lose 85% of the time?

Well I have to say that's just bad thinking... and this is why...

Flop has a FD and a SD you happen to have the SD... the pot is 5sb there is a bet and a raises making it 8/2 or 4:1 on your odds HOWEVER you don't have the full 8 outs here it's probably more like 6.5 outs (the flush card making you a straight might not always win you the pot)... so at 6.5 outs you need 6.1:1 (about) to make that call... horrible call... even with implied odds it would be super thin to call that...

now if you lead the flop like you should here, you make it 6:1 then a guy will probably call making it 7:1 then a dude will raise maybe making it 9:1 on your call GREAT ODDS...

this is the hole reason why we semi bluff marginal draws and big draws alike... because we only win about 1 in 5 or something like that so you need to lay a pot that will make up for all the times we miss thus making a long term +EV play...

Of course all of this is explained in the first half of SSH…

I check this flop too.

Straight draw < flush draw. Particularly when the flush draw has overs.
Betting into 5 players has very little fold equity. Quite often he's going to have to fire 2 or 3 times to get anyone to fold.
Without a pre-flop aggressor established, he hasn't a clue where a raise (if any) might come from. Betting and having Jx cut him off from the field would be a *distaster* for his hand. Ditto with facing a strongly played flush draw. Ditto with running into a flop smooth call followed by a turn raise.

I play this the same in most game textures. Saying he missed 4 bets is results-oriented.

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Originally Posted by Xanadu

I don't think this was so bad. Why build a pot you are going to lose 85% of the time?

Well I have to say that's just bad thinking...

I was talking about on the turn. You edited that out of your quote of me which changed the context. And I absolutely stick by betting the turn being a mistake. If I'm terribly wrong about that, I guess I suck.

If you dont bet the flop then you shouldnt bet the turn, obv. I would only bet the turn had I not been raised on the flop.

I check this flop too.

What has happened to your limit game? This is a textbook bet the flop, in fact, you could bet this flop on a gutshot draw and still have it be correct to do so. By not betting its like you're bringing back WLLH and putting away your SSH.

If you bet, get 2 callers and a raise should you not 3bet your draw? You can't say you automatically have 6 outs because someone wont have the flush draw more often than not, I'd say you are closer to 7 than 6.

Maybe you aren't trying to get him to fold more than building the pot for the times when you do hit you'll hit big.

Saying he missed 4 bets is results-oriented.

Then make an estimate of how many bets he did miss. I could've said 6 or so but toned it down already.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

What has happened to your limit game? This is a textbook bet the flop, in fact, you could bet this flop on a gutshot draw and still have it be correct to do so. By not betting its like you're bringing back WLLH and putting away your SSH.

If I think I have folding equity, I'll lead.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If you bet, get 2 callers and a raise should you not 3bet your draw? You can't say you automatically have 6 outs because someone wont have the flush draw more often than not, I'd say you are closer to 7 than 6.

It's a well hidden draw, you don't need to bet out when you hit on a non-flushing card.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Maybe you aren't trying to get him to fold more than building the pot for the times when you do hit you'll hit big.

He got called and over-called. I don't think he has an equity edge on the flop and don't want to get isolated to maximize the chance this goes multi-way. Also, if the button bets, we have the option to check/raise and blow him off his nothing.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Saying he missed 4 bets is results-oriented.

Then make an estimate of how many bets he did miss. I could've said 6 or so but toned it down already.

He missed 0 bets. Like I said, I don't see an edge to push on this flop. Once it's bet and raised I don't think he's got much folding equity either. He drew at a reasonable price on the flop, got a freebie on the turn, then got called + over-called on the river. Ni Han sir.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If you bet, get 2 callers and a raise should you not 3bet your draw? You can't say you automatically have 6 outs because someone wont have the flush draw more often than not, I'd say you are closer to 7 than 6.

i said 6.5 but mybe 7 is a bettor number still thin...

Lead the flop. If no one raises, I hollywood check [hoping they check behind and give me my OOP free card] but call the turn anyway, and still donk the river.

Let me rephrase. I'm sleepy.

I lead the flop.

On the turn, with this many opponents, I check hoping to call one bet, but not minding if it checks through. If its bet and raised on the turn, dump it.

River is an easy donk.

What do you mean "easy donk"? Easy bet?

I dont really have a problem with anyone's line here -
Jeff's maximizes value when u do hit.
Fnord's minimizes losses when u don't.
Eupho's is sort of an in-between (and the one I would normally take).

(moved by PokerFanatic)

damn it Eupho do you job!!!

Eh poker, mind moving my other thread over here too? Didn't even see this one, my bad..

It's shorthanded? that makes it an even clearer bet.

On the flop before we get a wider range:

Board: Jc 4h 6c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 29.9631 % 29.38% 00.59% { 5d3c }
Hand 2: 18.3347 % 17.63% 00.70% { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 18.0111 % 17.29% 00.73% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 17.5876 % 16.88% 00.71% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ }
Hand 5: 16.1036 % 15.36% 00.75% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 84s+, 74s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, A2o+, K2o+, Q3o+, J5o+, T6o+, 96o+, 86o+, 76o }


Once it's 4 handed:

Board: Jc 4h 6c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.8257 % 32.51% 00.33% { 5d3c }
Hand 2: 22.9541 % 22.15% 00.82% { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 22.3379 % 21.53% 00.83% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 21.8833 % 21.09% 00.82% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ }


You know these percentages, I dont have to post them but figured WTH. You have roughly 32% equity 4 way, pump the draw, its +EV. On the turn:

Board: Jc 4h 6c Kc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.8641 % 18.87% 00.00% { 5d3c }
Hand 2: 27.5999 % 26.98% 00.63% { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 27.2151 % 26.59% 00.63% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 26.3207 % 25.72% 00.61% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ }

The bet on the turn is -EV, but you've got to bet the turn if you pump it on the flop. As played, then you can't bet the turn. Once I get the results of the hand then I will put them in and recheck the equity percentages.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

It's shorthanded? that makes it an even clearer bet.

How is this a better bet against action junkies who play way too many hands, raise a lot and take them way too far. The full table fish run into big hands often enough to tend to call and fold more often than raise (because the ones that don't go stupid broke faster.)

*** RIVER *** [Jc 4h 6c Kc] [2s]
hartlis1: bets $1
Cajunredd: calls $1
MJNEW: calls $1
D.B.Murdock: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hartlis1: shows [5d 3c] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
Cajunredd: shows [6d 4s] (two pair, Sixes and Fours)
MJNEW: mucks hand
hartlis1 collected $9.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9.50 | Rake $0.25
Board [Jc 4h 6c Kc 2s]
Seat 1: mell123 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: hartlis1 (big blind) showed [5d 3c] and won ($9.25) with a straight, Deuce to Six
Seat 3: Cajunredd showed [6d 4s] and lost with two pair, Sixes and Fours
Seat 4: MJNEW mucked [Js As]
Seat 5: D.B.Murdock folded on the River
Seat 6: berrysweet (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Equity doesn't change so much its negligable, even after the hands are put in there for your hand 4 way, so I wont post them.

How is this a better bet against action junkies who play way too many hands, raise a lot and take them way too far. The full table fish run into big hands often enough to tend to call and fold more often than raise (because the ones that don't go stupid broke faster.)

I tend to bet for value on my draws over trying to get them to fold, especially when there is more than 3 people to the flop. I think the reason to not bet because they will not fold is not the correct way of thinking. You should bet for value because they wont fold, so to get the most money out of them as long as you have odds to do so. With your flush draw you dont argue bet/3beting a field of four but when faced with less than 1 out difference (including the backdoor flush possibility, which would have been good but we can't know that) you don't advocate it.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

You missed like 4 BB though in this pot looks like.

He's not missing full bets since he didn't have a hand until the river, so I agree with Fnord here. If you count all of his OESD outs as good, he's making only (0.31-0.25) = 0.06 SB for every small bet that gets put in four-handed on the flop. Even if he could have capped the flop four-handed (16 SB) with his draw, that's only 0.96 SB = 0.48 BB that he missed, assuming all OESD outs are good with no redraws.

I'd also add that I agree with Fnord wrt getting raised on the flop. Getting isolated (UTG flopped two pair and very likely would have raised) would be a bad thing for that hand.

I can't see what possible value there is in betting the turn after the flop aggression. You have zero fold equity and are unlikely to hit your draw. This hand might play somewhat differently at higher stakes, but you got to think that at those stakes someone caught a piece of the flop or turn and he is taking his hand to showdown.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

It's shorthanded? that makes it an even clearer bet.

How is this a better bet against action junkies who play way too many hands, raise a lot and take them way too far. The full table fish run into big hands often enough to tend to call and fold more often than raise (because the ones that don't go stupid broke faster.)

in SH you got to pump the pot to make it a big pot... most time unlike FR where the pot gets large because it's 5-7 way, SH it's typically 2-4 way...

Because the less amount of player aggression is the key to winning big pots...

This is also the reason 6 max is a lot higher variance in the long run… more hands played and you play them a lot more argo…


this situation is a clasic text book 6 max bet IMO

We're not in a 2-4 way pot though, we're in a 5 way pot, but I expect my opponents to (incorrectly) play it more like a 2-4 way pot.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I'd also add that I agree with Fnord wrt getting raised on the flop. Getting isolated (UTG flopped two pair and very likely would have raised) would be a bad thing for that hand.

You dont know that though, you cant really put anyUTG limping standard at 64s and I'm not all that worried about being raised here.

I can't see what possible value there is in betting the turn after the flop aggression.

I agree with you, because the flop wasnt played aggressively you cant go ahead and donk the turn. BUT, if the flop was played my way, you continue to donk the turn. As played, no, you cant donk the turn.

I have a feeling this was a 10 handed game that no one adjusted for the 6 max style.

Originally Posted by Fnord

We're not in a 2-4 way pot though, we're in a 5 way pot, but I expect my opponents to (incorrectly) play it more like a 2-4 way pot.

the relative 4 or 5 handed pot in 6 max plays pretty much the same way...

6 handed well i don't see that happen often enough to go into that... as soon as you bet and then it gets raised if 2 players have to call 2 cold i'll assume one of them makes a fold making this pot 3-4 handed... so in reality i'm sure that one of these guys limped an extreamly marginal hand and totaly bricked and will fold... which is what happened anyways with his call line...

instead of being faced with 2bets back to you now you are only faced with a decicion for 1sb back to you when you bet which is just fine...

the debate is not about the turn play i totaly agree with this statement:

I can't see what possible value there is in betting the turn after the flop aggression.

I agree with you, because the flop wasnt played aggressively you cant go ahead and donk the turn. BUT, if the flop was played my way, you continue to donk the turn. As played, no, you cant donk the turn.

I have a feeling this was a 10 handed game that no one adjusted for the 6 max style.

my issue is not betting out on the flop... the hand plays completly diffrent and the results of a guy folding making at 4 handed are EXACTLY the same... by checking here you miss out on 4bets i think when you hit thoughout the hand when you bet you gain that extra amount of bets...

what more +EV here that's the line i take what makes me the most money... if betting out gives me 4bb extra when i hit that's my line...

Well, missing bets here was kind of an overstatement. You're roughly like 1/4 to hit once the turn comes so any money you put in there wont increase our winrate any.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Well, missing bets here was kind of an overstatement. You're roughly like 1/4 to hit once the turn comes so any money you put in there wont increase our winrate any.

i was using your over estimation to stress the point

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I'd also add that I agree with Fnord wrt getting raised on the flop. Getting isolated (UTG flopped two pair and very likely would have raised) would be a bad thing for that hand.

You dont know that though, you cant really put anyUTG limping standard at 64s and I'm not all that worried about being raised here.

You won't necessarily get raised and isolated, but it is possible, and it dilutes the value of a flop bet. With no preflop raiser, it's a bit difficult to determine where any post flop aggression will come from, but you have a better chance of keeping it 3+ handed by checking IMO since some hands will raise a bettor in an attempt to isolate but might fold to two bets.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I can't see what possible value there is in betting the turn after the flop aggression.

I agree with you, because the flop wasnt played aggressively you cant go ahead and donk the turn. BUT, if the flop was played my way, you continue to donk the turn. As played, no, you cant donk the turn.

Even if you cap the flop, leading the turn is a bad play *if you have zero fold equity*, since your turn equity is undoubtedly less than 25%. It doesn't cost you a bet, but it costs you something and erodes the equity you built on the flop.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Well, missing bets here was kind of an overstatement. You're roughly like 1/4 to hit once the turn comes so any money you put in there wont increase our winrate any.

How do you figure 1/4 (assume you meant 25%)? I'd say you are no better than 1/5 and probably closer to 1/6.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Well, missing bets here was kind of an overstatement. You're roughly like 1/4 to hit once the turn comes so any money you put in there wont increase our winrate any.

How do you figure 1/4 (assume you meant 25%)? I'd say you are no better than 1/5 and probably closer to 1/6.

Normally, yeah, but his flush card could be good as well (as in this instance) which would bring it a little higher to 1/4.

Koolmoe FTW!

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Normally, yeah, but his flush card could be good as well (as in this instance) which would bring it a little higher to 1/4.

Not that it matters, but we don't know that his club would have been good in this instance because CO folded the non-club river.

If we just assume that the suits are distributed randomly, the percentage of times that none of the three opponents will have a club above a 3 is about 0.3.

Thus, total outs are 6 non-club OESD outs + 9*0.3 flush outs = 8.7 outs, which is slightly worse than 1/5.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Koolmoe FTW!

You realize I was just guessing 1/4 for the sake of argument right? Kinda why I said I overshot the whole missing bets thing cuz you're at best breaking even on any money putting in there, which at 4-1 and with 4 players in the pot it was just easiest to do that. But, yeah, Koolmoe is right with his just under 5-1, he could've run a pokerstove just as easily too.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Fnord

Koolmoe FTW!

You realize I was just guessing 1/4 for the sake of argument right? Kinda why I said I overshot the whole missing bets thing cuz you're at best breaking even on any money putting in there, which at 4-1 and with 4 players in the pot it was just easiest to do that. But, yeah, Koolmoe is right with his just under 5-1, he could've run a pokerstove just as easily too.

If you guys want to get all technical and shit, an OESD if all your outs are clean is 8 outs, which is 4.75:1... Now if you are devalued any to say 7 outs that's 6.57:1 so in reality it's probably around 5.5:1 with implied odds...

So really our bet is designed to give you odds to play to the river if you miss the turn… and it also helps with odds if the pot is raised on the flop so that you don't have to thinly call 2...

You guys make my head hurt sometimes.