1/2 Bottom Set Multiway

What's up guys?

Been probably around a year since I've been active on FTR. No online poker in the US sucks (obvvv) BUT, I just moved and now live 10-15 minutes from a nice Harrah's so I'll most likely be spending quite a bit of time there. It may not be the most efficient way to improve my game when compared to online poker but at least I can get my poker fix. Plus, the combination of slow pace and no huds means I can put more thought into each decision.

ANYWAYS, here's a hand I saw last time I was there. I wasn't involved but thought it might be a cool spot. I want to see what everyone thinks about it from a particular player's point of view:

I don't remember the preflop action exactly but I think it went something like, folds to use in middle/latish position and we open for ~3bb with



BU, SB, and BB call. BU has been very active and pretty aggressive. SB has ~60 bb and seems like a fish. BB seems somewhat competent with a large stack (about the same as us). We have ~200bb. BU covers everyone.

Flop comes



I believe the action went

--SB checks
--BB checks
--We check
--BU bets
--SB raises largish committing the rest of his stack
--BB flats the raise
--BU announces all in before we act and is clearly visibly upset when he realizes he acted out of turn.
--What is our action here???

I'll give my thoughts in the next post so think about what you want to say before reading it

Ok here's my thoughts:

--SB's range could be wide given he doesn't have a full stack and is fishy. It's also consistent with a strong hand though
--BB's line is consistent with how many people in this game would play their strongest hands.
--BU clearly has a monster given his eagerness to get money in the pot especially after seeing so much strength ahead of him.
--Hard to say what to do here because a higher set has us absolutely crushed equity wise but we're doing alright against anything else given how much money is already in the pot and outs to make a boat.

why the hell did you check otf?

oh wait you werent in the hand. w/e i dont fold sets live otf. gamboool

Originally Posted by bikes

why the hell did you check otf?

oh wait you werent in the hand. w/e i dont fold sets live otf. gamboool

almost word for word my reply

Heh well maybe it wasn't as interesting as I thought. Yea I would never check this flop with a set, especially when the pot is 4-way.

I mean I guess other sets really aren't that likely and vs everything else we're doing ok equity wise. I do think people stack off tighter in live vs low stakes online. At 25nl I wouldn't be surprised for someone to have like TT here, but I don't think that would happen live.

you must not have played a lot of live then

Originally Posted by kfaess

I do think people stack off tighter in live vs low stakes online. At 25nl I wouldn't be surprised for someone to have like TT here, but I don't think that would happen live.

in my experience playing 200-500nl live i've found the exact opposite. even the tight old regs cant fold an overpair to a line which is indicative of only the stone-cold nuts

Haha nice, I guess I'm going to make some money then.

Eventually I'd like to build a roll big enough to play 500nl live. Shouldn't be too hard I imagine

i find most of the live players i've come across, except those who are obviously online guys (young people, people with ipods on at the table, online poker site tshirts/caps etc etc) play poker by formulas ie "overpairs are strong and you should go with them", "you should call up $xx with a draw but never more than $xx" rather than adaptive things like ranges, stack sizes, pot odds, implied odds etc. so they make huge mistakes when there rote-learnt rules don't apply to a given situation. for example, when they are 200+bb deep, or when you take a line which you only ever take with the nuts and they happen to have an overpair or whatever.

That's interesting and yea it makes sense. The harrah's I play at has 1/2 with a $300 max buyin so automatically I can start 150bb deep and usually at least 1/3 of the table is 200bb+ deep (sometimes like half the table).

What are the biggest differences between 1/2 and 2/5?

This place also allows straddles. I have pretty much zero knowledge of straddles but here they allow button straddles, which seems pretty strong right?

Originally Posted by kfaess

What are the biggest differences between 1/2 and 2/5?

havent played a heap of 2/5 but the main thing i noticed was less of the scared-money, short-stacked, touristy type players than at 1/2. 1/2 (assuming that's the lowest game spread. usually is here in aus) is the game every random joe who has played a few home games and has $40 to spare after blackjack decides to sit in and try their luck. 2/5 i found also has more old, tight (bad), regs. and a few more sharper regs who are there to grind.

Originally Posted by kfaess

This place also allows straddles. I have pretty much zero knowledge of straddles but here they allow button straddles, which seems pretty strong right?

i've not played in a casino game which allows straddles. at crown casino (melbourne) as best i know they don't allow them at any no-limit game lower than 5/10.

Sick flop check if you saw the Button reaching. Although it sounds like he just jumped the gun on you.

I would fold this. The action is way too sick.

I'm felting 88 and probably 77 here though.

edit: Just did the calcs. It's a call but you're losing here a lot.

Board: 4h 7h 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.974% 28.83% 00.14% 427470 2083.50 { 4c4d }
Hand 1: 19.671% 18.02% 01.65% 267147 24480.00 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }
Hand 2: 31.685% 30.12% 01.57% 446474 23278.50 { Ah5h }
Hand 3: 19.671% 18.02% 01.65% 267147 24480.00 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }


I put in A5h because there is a really good chance there is a flush draw in the mix and that's a PITA to put into poker stove ranges.

Also, notice the big jump in equity for middle vs bottom set here:

Board: 4h 7h 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.581% 35.45% 00.13% 1210422 4493.50 { 77 }
Hand 1: 16.775% 14.97% 01.80% 511261 61526.50 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }
Hand 2: 30.868% 29.22% 01.65% 997764 56225.50 { Ah5h }
Hand 3: 16.775% 14.97% 01.80% 511261 61526.50 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }

Another pretty big jump for top set:

3,763,800 games 0.061 secs 61,701,639 games/sec

Board: 4h 7h 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.303% 43.17% 00.13% 1624848 4986.00 { 88 }
Hand 1: 12.791% 11.09% 01.70% 417543 63868.50 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }
Hand 2: 31.116% 29.51% 01.61% 1110564 60579.00 { Ah5h }
Hand 3: 12.791% 11.09% 01.70% 417543 63868.50 { JJ-77, 44, 87s, 74s, 65s, 87o, 65o }

there is 0 difference between 1/2 and 2/5 except most places let you buy in 200-500bb deep at 2/5. which is cool.

I wouldn't go that far.

At 2/5 you'll see more players trying to "play good" (whatever that means to them) and fewer "fuck it, it's only $$$" calls.

But both can be pretty darn soft depending on table conditions.