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[PLO8] nut low/-draw weak high vs flopbet

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  1. #1
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    Default [PLO8] nut low/-draw weak high vs flopbet

    I'm new to PLO8 and these type of situations (nut low/-draw, weak high) confuse me a great deal.

    -----
    1. micro stakes, Villain plays straightforward and not extremely aggressive

      Hero holds
      2 folds, Villain (CO) raises 3xBB, Hero (Button) calls, blinds fold
      flop is
      Villain bets 3/4 pot, Hero ?
    2. What if the flop was ?
    3. What if the flop was ?
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    ***Disclaimer
    My advice should be considered as engaging in dialogue. I claim no expertise in PLO8 at all.
    ***

    What is Villain's range to open to 3x from the CO?
    (Frankly, I'm not practiced at comparing Omaha ranges, so a general sense of what kind of hands he might have would work.)

    What is Villain's range to C-bet OTF.
    Note that villain did not check, so if he has a c/r range, it's not represented here.

    ***
    Is this FR or 6-max? This makes a big difference. I am a FR player, and my answers assume a "straightforward and not extremely aggressive" player at FR microstakes. I assume a semblance of competence in Villain as far as positional awareness and pre-flop ranges.

    Would you have middle connected hands in your opening range from CO? I would. If Villain is competent, he will be taking chances with non-gapped mid-rank hands, like 789T or 89TJ from the CO, especially if they're double suited.

    *
    Situation 1 there's almost no chance that you're playing to scoop the pot, so fold.
    You need 2 draws (a J and a 9 or A) to make your straight on top, and you need a 3,4,5, or 6 to make your bottom draw. The best top hand you can hope for is a pair of K's, since an A on the board corrupts your low.
    No scoop potential = fold early, fold often.
    Even if you have a read that Villain will C-bet 3/4 pot with only a low draw, which you are blocking, this is still a fold.


    Situation 2 is obviously better for you, but Villain's bet should tell you something about his range. If he's going to have those mid-connected hands in his range PRE, then you could be in bad shape for the top. However, your draw on the bottom is now supported by TPTK, so taking a draw is in order against plenty of villains.


    Situation 3 is really no different from situation 1. Your top is incredibly vulnerable.
  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    What is Villain's range to open to 3x from the CO?
    That's -embarrassing as it may be- still a tough question for me at this point. I guess since it's the CO Villain could have {A2-4(KQ)+/KK-QQ, AA(2-8)J+, any 4 wheelcards & (AKQQ)+ and AKQJ} (This might be too tight for the average player at the micros. I'll probably come back on this when I'm a bit more knowledgeable.)

    What is Villain's range to C-bet OTF.
    Note that villain did not check, so if he has a c/r range, it's not represented here.
    Again, very hard for me to say with my limited experience, but I'll try my best.
    For flop #1 Villain's c-betting range might be {A2-3(45/78/77/88),23+(78/77/88)} I already excluded any 9 or T from his preflop raising range. If these are in his pf range however, than he's probably cbetting with (A2-3/23+)(9x/TT) as well.

    I think his x/r range is negligible, as I think he's nearly always cbetting A2-3(TT/9J/88).

    Is this FR or 6-max? This makes a big difference.
    Oh yeah, sorry. The "2 folds" indicated 6-max, but I should have explicitly stated it.

    Would you have middle connected hands in your opening range from CO? I would. If Villain is competent, he will be taking chances with non-gapped mid-rank hands, like 789T or 89TJ from the CO, especially if they're double suited.
    I definitely wouldn't. What is your reason for opening these IP?

    Thanks for your input.
    Last edited by Runge-Kutta; 05-26-2015 at 05:16 AM.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runge-Kutta View Post
    That's -embarrassing as it may be- still a tough question for me at this point. I guess since it's the CO Villain could have {A2-4(KQ)+/KK-QQ, AA(2-8)J+, any 4 wheelcards & (AKQQ)+ and AKQJ} (This might be too tight for the average player at the micros. I'll probably come back on this when I'm a bit more knowledgeable.)


    Again, very hard for me to say with my limited experience, but I'll try my best.
    For flop #1 Villain's c-betting range might be {A2-3(45/78/77/88),23+(78/77/88)} I already excluded any 9 or T from his preflop raising range. If these are in his pf range however, than he's probably cbetting with (A2-3/23+)(9x/TT) as well.

    I think his x/r range is negligible, as I think he's nearly always cbetting A2-3(TT/9J/88).
    This is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about. We all have to start somewhere and Omaha ranges are a big step up in complexity from Hold Em ranges.

    Start by assuming your own ranges for CO, and then observe how different the field tends to play.

    I'm assuming that a range of ~40 - 50% is still good from the BTN, and in general, half that for a decent CO range. These are ranges to open, not call behind or anything else. The math that drives this doesn't care what game it is, just the blinds and betting structure.

    ***
    OK, so even without those mid-runners, Villain is crushing you on the top on this board, and has a lot of hands that chop the bottom. You can discount his AA and KK hands, since you hold blockers, but he's still happy with other PP's, it looks like.

    I'm thinking from a NLHE perspective, but it seems like you are facing a board that smacks your opponent's range so hard that you can't reasonably continue, even in the 2nd scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runge-Kutta View Post
    Oh yeah, sorry. The "2 folds" indicated 6-max, but I should have explicitly stated it.
    I might have noticed that on another day. Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runge-Kutta View Post
    I definitely wouldn't. What is your reason for opening these IP?
    I'd be using them* to blind steal ahead of the BTN if possible and hopefully flop a wrap on a board with 0 or 1 low card.
    Note that a fair number of boards support no low hands.

    *them = non-gapped mid-rank hands. Moreso if they're double suited. Much less so if they're rainbow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Runge-Kutta View Post
    Thanks for your input.
    My pleasure.
    We're quickly approaching the extent of my knowledge, but I'm happy to continue the convo. as a student of the game.
  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'd be using them to blind steal ahead of the BTN if possible and hopefully flop a wrap on a board with 0 or 1 low card.My pleasure.
    From what I've heard so far middle connected hands are garbage even if double suited because if you flop a wrap/flush on a high only board, it's still not the nuts. And that's best case scenario. To me it seems that these hands have little chance of flopping well and if they do the reverse implied odds are bad.

    I guess they might be alright to steal the blinds with if you know what you're doing postflop IP, but I suspect that my postflop game is not strong enough for me personally to play them profitably at this point.
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I agree with you about the lack of significant return post-flop. I am guessing that blind-stealing and intelligently applied aggression IP is good enough to make them at least 0 EV post-flop.

    I think there's an edge to be had PRE with them, but I'm really guessing as to what 4-card hands qualify as the top 20%. I'm speculating that the non-gapped, double suited hands probably all fall into that 20%.

    OK, I did a quick web search and turned up no listing of top hands in PLO8 by percentage.
    I can construct percentage lists from the top hands lists, but that's a bit more work than I'm gonna do at this moment.
    It's just a bit of combinatorial work to determine what number of combos is represented by each hand and dividing by
    C(52,4) = 270,725 total starting combos

    ***
    It looks like I'm reaching too far with those low-mid hands and stuff like 5678 - 89TJ is probably "unplayable", even if double suited.
    However, this is in simplified beginner's articles which don't state more in-depth analysis beyond "playable" or "not playable" which is far too simplified to be of any use beyond an introduction to the rules of the game.

    I encourage you to see if you can find a list of starting hands that includes the %-age of all hands that is represented by that range.

    Once you can determine the top 40% of hands, that's a great place to aim for your opening range from the BTN. Cut that in half and you have a starting point to figure out your opening range from the CO.

    After that, I'd trust a 6-max players advice for ranges. Those 40/20 numbers I threw out are only a starting point. You will likely find that you are comfortable playing a bit wider. I caution you against going too wide, though. Playing as many as 50% of hands when it's folded to you on the BTN can easily spew away gains. Remember that after the top 20% of hands, there are only very slightly +EV hands left to add to your range (and a lot of 0EV or -EV hands). A BTN range of 40% includes a lot of ~0EV hands that play poorly post-flop, even IP. When you push it up to 50%, you are almost definitely adding hands that are slightly -EV in the long run.

    tl;dr:
    Find out what your own ranges might be for a sensible TAG style in PLO8.
    Try to figure out what %-age of hands is represented by the various "top hands charts" that are available online.
  7. #7
    How deeps are stacks? I would usually fold at stage 1, but there's high-risk opportunity to float and bluff with virtually any high card hitting board but even then, you must not overplay if you hit your low because that means either split or you being quartered. In case 2 I would re-raise and in case 3 float.
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farseer View Post
    How deeps are stacks?
    100 BB's each

    there's high-risk opportunity to float and bluff with virtually any high card hitting board
    Could you elaborate a bit more on this please. Why would villain fold often to a bet on a high card turn a lot there?

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