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CowbellGuy
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06-30-2007, 07:28 PM
Post subject: What M value to push all in with at middle stages?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 87
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After analyzing my last 100 tournaments, I came to the stark reality that my most common place finish is 4th. I know my middle game stage is a major weakness and was hoping for some general advice
I am playing low stakes, normal speed Sit and Go’s on FT.
Early game, I play very tight. That means that when I get to the middle stage (4-6 players left), unless I’ve seen a big hand, flopped a set, etc. I am often playing small stacked. At this critical stage of the tournament, at what M level should I be thinking about pushing all in with anything less than a big hand? All too often I see myself bubbling out after pushing A5, 44, etc…
Thanks again.
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Zee Devee
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 694
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Usually once you hit 10xBB you should be in push/fold mode. Either you push all in preflop or fold.
Read through all the stickies and learn that you need to be aggressive on the bubble (4 handed). You need to see situations where pushing and stealing the blinds is +EV.
The best way to look at it is to learn ICM:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...508b8e56662fbb
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CowbellGuy
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 87
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so an M value of 10? ok, wow I have been letting it get to like 7 or 8 or so before I become desperate. Thanks for all your help
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Zee Devee
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 694
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No, M is the total pot preflop with blinds and antes. 10XBB means 10 big blinds.
Example: You have a stack of 2000 with blinds 100/200 with 25 ante at a table with 8 players.
You have exactly 10xBB (2000/200=10) but an M of 4 (2000/(100+200+25*8)=2000/500=4).
Hope that helps.
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Zee Devee
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 694
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P.S.- SnG's are usually kept in terms of xBB because the M can get so low in such a short time rather than MTT's where you can go for hours.
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CowbellGuy
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 87
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Zee, thanks again for all your help. You're the man.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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the most common finish in a SnG is 4th for good players
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here!
I agree with Zee Devee, when your stack is <10x BB you're looking to shove preflop if you're going to play. The overall principle is that if a standard raise and c-bet on a missed flop would leave you desperately short or pot committed then you should just shove preflop.
Note that this rule isn't hard and fast, I might shove up to 13x BB with unmade hands like AK in early position. Alternatively with a monster hand like AA or KK I might just standard raise with as little as 8x BB in my stack if I know that, for example, the BB is a calling station who will call a standard raise but fold to a preflop shove.
Post some hands where you had a tough decision to make, it's easier to discuss with a real example.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
the most common finish in a SnG is 4th for good players
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Any theories and why that is?
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Just playing to improve.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
the most common finish in a SnG is 4th for good players
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Any theories and why that is? |
Fold fold fold fold fold fold push, get sucked out on.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Hey, that sounds like 7 out of 9 games I played yesterday!
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Just playing to improve.
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CowbellGuy
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 87
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Here is my latest failure... Also, sorry to be a huge noob, but what is c-betting? I tried searching the forums and the only hits that come up are those referencing it. Thanks.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-1169.html
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mikeneron
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 366
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c-betting is a continuation bet. When you raise preflop and you are first to act on the flop or it is checked to you, you lead out with a bet (usually 1/2 the pot size).
I just looked at the last 2 hands of that history when you were heads up. Why are you pushing all in with Q8 when the blinds are only 80/160 and your stack is almost 6K? There is plenty of time to play normal poker here. If you must raise, then raise 3xBB there. Same on the next and final hand, just call his raise and see a flop. With the blinds still small there in comparison to chip stacks, you can be patient and just play normal poker. If you had <10BBs then these plays would be fine.
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jordancross
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12
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cbetting is when you raise preflop, and then fire a bet again on the flop. You are "continuing" your bet. As for the hand history, why shove on the last hand? the blinds where low enough that you could have just called or pulled a standard 3x raise. By shoving into what was the other big stack at the table with a hand like KJ, you are leaving yourself in a very precarous position; he is only calling with hands that are beating you or dominating you, while the times that he folds you are only picking up 300 chips. A standard raise will force out the hands your push elimates while alowing worse hands rope to hang themselves with. Also, a reraise over top of yours lets you know you are beat instantly so you can lay down your hand.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Lol at hand 4. Two people limping AK.
Hand 7: Raise AQ PF.
Hand 11: JJ is too good to limp. Raise them up, say around 300. If you get callers, c-bet that flop.
Hand 15: Thats a c-bet!
Hand 16: Bet turn. He either has a king or doesnt, but he checked flop so lead out turn and find out.
Hand 18: I dont like this PF call. Either reraise or fold. With his stack I'd push PF and make him choose to play for all his chips.
Hand 21: Against big stack and having post flop position, I think this PF call is fine. Normally you'll want to reraise with AK, but this is an exception.
Hand 24: Again, reraise or fold PF.
Hand 25: I dont think you need to be push/fold yet. You both have big stacks and the blinds are still low.
Hand 26: I like the reraise, but make it say 1k chips. Just because your HU doesnt mean every hand has to be for all your chips PF.
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Just playing to improve.
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Wikkiwikki
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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For the original poster..... also keep in mind other peoples stack. If 4 of you have 10xbb and 1 has 40xbb the picture changes a little. 10xbb is good advice generally but keep in mind others situations too.
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CowbellGuy
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 87
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Ok, thanks all. Would you say this changes any for turbos? I.e. Push all in sooner?
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Wikkiwikki
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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Doesn't change for turbos....
but it's all situational. The main thing is you don't want to finally move all in and have everyone call you because you have so few chips it doesn't matter, thats the point. Its better to push all in with Q-8o with 10xbb than A-Qs with 3xbb. IF you double at 10 you now have some chips to play with, at 3 your just at 6 and still in panic mode.
Other factors like is someone shorter stacked than you, # of people remaining, blind sizes etc. play a big factor too.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Push/Fold is all about stack sizes relative to blinds. The only difference with turbos is that you get to that point sooner from a time point of view, not from a blinds point of view.
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Just playing to improve.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wikkiwikki
For the original poster..... also keep in mind other peoples stack. If 4 of you have 10xbb and 1 has 40xbb the picture changes a little. 10xbb is good advice generally but keep in mind others situations too.
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Why? Effective stacks are still 10 BBs, I would still be in push/ fold mode, only my range would be different
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Wikkiwikki
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 115
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you are correct - i just wanted to make a point of being aware of others stack sizes as it changes the way you play dramatically.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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The main thing to bare in mind with stack sizes, is that extreme stacks will call looser. A big stack will gamble to knock you out since it doesnt hurt much if he loses, a small stack will gamble because he has to to survive. Ideally you want to be pushing against people with much the same size stack as you, if not you need to have reads on them that they're going to be tight, or have a better than usual hand.
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Just playing to improve.
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