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Two Pair Gone Bad - Hand Analysis

  
 
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allLiving
Old 06-30-2004, 05:35 PM     Post subject: Two Pair Gone Bad - Hand Analysis #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars Game #516214988: Tournament #1956378, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX
(300/600) - 2004/06/30 - 11:17:21 (ET)
Table '1956378 2' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: garyd666 (6575 in chips)
Seat 5: sainter (1978 in chips)
Seat 6: Pauldubalot (7113 in chips)
Seat 8: allLiving (3984 in chips)
Seat 9: gomenlb (7350 in chips)
garyd666: posts the ante 50
sainter: posts the ante 50
Pauldubalot: posts the ante 50
allLiving: posts the ante 50
gomenlb: posts the ante 50
Pauldubalot: posts small blind 300
allLiving: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to allLiving [Jh 8d]
gomenlb: folds
garyd666: calls 600
sainter: folds
Pauldubalot: calls 300
allLiving: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 8c Jd]
Pauldubalot: checks
allLiving: bets 3334 and is all-in
garyd666: calls 3334
Pauldubalot: folds
*** TURN *** [Ad 8c Jd] [Ah]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 8c Jd Ah] [6d]
allLiving said, "lol"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
allLiving: shows [Jh 8d] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
garyd666: shows [5c Ac] (three of a kind, Aces)
garyd666 collected 8718 from pot
allLiving [observer] said, "nice turn"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8718 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 8c Jd Ah 6d]
Seat 1: garyd666 showed [5c Ac] and won (8718) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 5: sainter (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Pauldubalot (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: allLiving (big blind) showed [Jh 8d] and lost with two pair, Aces and
Jacks
Seat 9: gomenlb folded before Flop (didn't bet)

___________

Looking back, I think I shouldn't have gone ALL in with the two pair, but rather place a sizable bet. What do you think?

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Old 06-30-2004, 06:38 PM #2 (permalink)  
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fishstick
Old 06-30-2004, 07:24 PM #3 (permalink)  
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i would have played it the same. you showed strength, and went all in when you had the best of it.
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koolmoe
Old 06-30-2004, 08:32 PM #4 (permalink)  
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If you had known he had A5c with one club on the board would you have wanted him to push? Without question.

You had to go over the top to eliminate odds for the flush or straight draw, so I think it's the right play as opposed to check raising.

If you bet out 600 or 1000, he's at least calling, and probably pushing you all in. More than 1000 and you need to push anyway.

About the only thing that could have saved you in hindsight was reraising on the flop to represent an A. In that case, he might have figured he was outkicked on the flop and folded, but more likely he or your other opponent would have pushed pre-flop and you would have been behind when the money went in.

Look on the bright side: you just made theoretical money! Too bad it doesn't spend like real money.
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michael1123
Old 06-30-2004, 08:39 PM #5 (permalink)  
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You definitely played it right. Its just one of those bad beats that you can't avoid.
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Fnord
Old 07-01-2004, 06:47 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Some hands you just have to be ready to put all your chips in the middle of the table with.

Some hands must be played fast, because the outdraw risk is too high to do otherwise.

Bottom 2 falls into both of those buckets.

Never second guess yourself for getting in all your chips when you have the best of it.
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michael1123
Old 07-01-2004, 07:06 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Never second guess yourself for getting in all your chips when you have the best of it.
That use to be what I thought, but I'm learning that that always isn't the case, particularly preflop. But with that pot size, it was definitely the right move. He actually made a very bad call with only a 5 kicker and got lucky.
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fishstick
Old 07-01-2004, 06:17 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Never second guess yourself for getting in all your chips when you have the best of it.
That use to be what I thought, but I'm learning that that always isn't the case, particularly preflop. But with that pot size, it was definitely the right move. He actually made a very bad call with only a 5 kicker and got lucky.
not to quibble (because we all know i agreeable i am ) but why wouldn't you always want to get "in all your chips when you have the best of it"?

yes, there are times you will get outdrawn, but if you start from a position of advantage, over the long run (one long session) you will ultimately profit more.

would you ever hesitate to call an all-in preflop with AA or KK? not me.
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koolmoe
Old 07-01-2004, 06:26 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick
would you ever hesitate to call an all-in preflop with AA or KK? not me.
On the bubble in a tourney with two players all-in already is about the only time I wouldn't
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fishstick
Old 07-01-2004, 07:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick
would you ever hesitate to call an all-in preflop with AA or KK? not me.
On the bubble in a tourney with two players all-in already is about the only time I wouldn't
koolmoe - that's just crazy talk! you would fold AA or KK on the bubble with two players already all-in? i'd hope someone else would join in the pot. :P

i see people on the bubble going all-in with marginal hands, middle pairs (JJ-99), and even with small pairs, all of which you'd have a medium to strong advantage over.

this would be an opportunity to greatly increase you stack with minimal risk (AA or KK after all), and to take 1-2 players out and put yourself into the money.
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michael1123
Old 07-01-2004, 07:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick
not to quibble (because we all know i agreeable i am ) but why wouldn't you always want to get "in all your chips when you have the best of it"?

yes, there are times you will get outdrawn, but if you start from a position of advantage, over the long run (one long session) you will ultimately profit more.

would you ever hesitate to call an all-in preflop with AA or KK? not me.
No no, not with those hands. Basically I'm talking about something like you have QQ and you know no one else has a higher pocket pair, and probably not AK.

But also I'm mainly talking about pushing in. I nearly always have the best hand when I go all in, unless I'm on the short stack, but doing it preflop is very dangerous.

I use to push in with QQ for example, and lose to an Ax type hand (not big slick) 40% of the time, and think I made the right play every time. Now I prefer to raise big (4x-6x BB), see if there's an overcard on the flop, and if not then push all in.

Basically, its all in my first post / thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=1026
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FyrFytr998
Old 07-01-2004, 08:26 PM #12 (permalink)  
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There was one tourney where I did the same exact thing you did. I was short stack. Flopped two pair J,10,8 (J/10) and went all in. Had two callers. One would have legitimately beat me. He had pocket 8's and flopped a set. The other had K/Q and rivered a 9 to take the pot from both of us. Lucky idiots and their drawing hands.

Everything I've ever read about poker told me I did the right thing. It just happens that it dosen't go your way sometimes. That's why it's called gambling. What can you do?

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