Tricky preflop situation with QQ ($27)

I shove since it is bubble, if you were ITM I would maybe go smaller.

I am starting to think that we are going the "push" route too easily these days without thinking things through.

First of all the stakes you are playing tend to lead to more of a "thinking" player than at the $5 or $11 level, especially this late in the tourney.

With that said, I think the real question here is what you want villian to do? If you are trying to get all of his chips in the middle (which I am assuming is the goal here), then I think a re-raise accomplishes that because he is more likely to push over that (given his stats) than call your open push.

The other nice thing about a re-raise is that if he just calls and you get a nasty flop you can let go of the hand easier.

I've thought it through.

Your last point is exactly why I want to shove. Are you just going to give up on any A/K flop?

PS the vast majority of 27 players suck. At the 55 5 tables I have been playing, there are maybe 3 decent players per table and the other 6 aren't just iffy, they are outright bad.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

I am starting to think that we are going the "push" route too easily these days without thinking things through.

First of all the stakes you are playing tend to lead to more of a "thinking" player than at the $5 or $11 level, especially this late in the tourney.

With that said, I think the real question here is what you want villian to do? If you are trying to get all of his chips in the middle (which I am assuming is the goal here), then I think a re-raise accomplishes that because he is more likely to push over that (given his stats) than call your open push.

The other nice thing about a re-raise is that if he just calls and you get a nasty flop you can let go of the hand easier.

But if these people are thinking players which you are assuming then they must know at least a little ICM, or know that tai has been aggro on the bubble. Of course I am assuming he has been pushing to steal at least a few times before this hand.

If that is the case, then wouldn't a raise be much more suspicious than a push anyway? If we want him to call, we need to play it like we play any hand, which- in this case- would be a push.

right, the whole 'thinking players' argument is circular and not helpful:

1) He shoves over with more hands than he calls a push with

But he knows we know that so:

2) he calls pushes but is scared of smaller raises

but he knows we know THAT so:

3) see #1

It is hard/impossible to know where he is at here, and again if we get called on a small RR we will often play our hand badly. If we push we play our hand perfectly and he can make a lot of mistake calls.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

2) he calls pushes but is scared of smaller raises

but he knows we know THAT so:

I think that only applies if we know he is a thinking player and he percieves us as a thinking player. If we got a decent sized stack here because we got a lucky run of cards that showed, he may only percieve that we know a little, but we are not necessarily deep thinkers, therefore he wouldn't think that we know he would be scared of smaller raises. But that depends on the past and what actually happened before this hand.

Which is all getting into 2nd and higher level thinking which I shouldn't be dabbling into at all because I still can't even beat the 6.50's!!!!

Basically what I just wrote was my speculation, not fact- therefore don't percieve me as knowing a lot (or anything at all).

This is like trying to play D,E,and F poker when I haven't learned A, B, and C.

I'm not sure I 100% follow, but I think you're more or less making my point, which is that after about the 2nd level you can't really use 'levels' to make decisions.

You two just 3rd leveled this thread!!!!

Thanks for the replies. I really played this one quite badly, exactly what I feared would happen actually happened.

Must be a bit rusty after not really having had much time to play due to work.

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
UTG raises to t400, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1500, 1 fold, UTG calls t1100.

Flop: (t3200) 2, A, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t500, Hero ????

Being afraid of bubbling here is absurd. You have queens and should try to get your chips in the middle. If you lose, bad luck, but if you don't (which will happen the overwhelming majority of the time), you'll have a huge chip lead and will be a favorite to win the tournament. I make a normal-sized reraise to give myself the best chances of getting my chips in the pot either preflop or on any flop (even when there is an overcard).

Originally Posted by taipan168

Thanks for the replies. I really played this one quite badly, exactly what I feared would happen actually happened.

Must be a bit rusty after not really having had much time to play due to work.

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
UTG raises to t400, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1500, 1 fold, UTG calls t1100.

Flop: (t3200) 2, A, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t500, Hero ????

You should've just pushed. There are too many chips in the pot relative to your stack, and your stack is now too small to play scared just because an overcard flopped. Having checked, push and hope he doesn't have an ace or that he folds one.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

You should've just pushed.

You mean on the flop? If so, agreed as played. But I still advocate pushing preflop (Depending on what happened before this hand. If tai hasn't been aggro or stealing at all then a std. raise is good here.)

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

Originally Posted by dsaxton

You should've just pushed.

You mean on the flop? If so, agreed as played. But I still advocate pushing preflop (Depending on what happened before this hand. If tai hasn't been aggro or stealing at all then a std. raise is good here.)

Yes, push the flop. Any player that is just calling a preflop reraise here is probably a bad player and has a range much wider than A-x. I push the flop here if I think there's any reasonable chance I have the best hand because of my stack size and the pot size.

Why push preflop? I don't understand why we should want villain to fold when we're a prohibitive favorite to win the pot, even considering the bubble dynamic. The only time I would push is if villain has shown a refusal to lay down hands preflop in these situations, as he might not call you postflop if you raise less preflop and push the flop, but will usually call a preflop push with the same hands.

what does he call with that we beat on the flop

Originally Posted by drmcboy

what does he call with that we beat on the flop

All pocket pairs (that is, all pocket pairs that he calls with preflop), all high card combinations that don't contain aces. Why is it impossible for two queens to be the best hand here?

Certainly if he calls with every hand on any flop, make a small raise. I don't see how you get there, which is why I would rather just get it in pre flop.

I'm puzzled by this opp you are playing who folds a PP pre flop here to a push but calls a re raise then calls on an A high flop?


EDIT just to add surely you aren't saying he calls with KQ or worse unless he has spades?

Got to shove the flop in the dark here bro. Fail that, I'd just shove over his silly little bet.

This guy is so erratic that trying to put him on a hand is just an excercise in futility.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Certainly if he calls with every hand on any flop, make a small raise. I don't see how you get there, which is why I would rather just get it in pre flop.

I'm puzzled by this opp you are playing who folds a PP pre flop here to a push but calls a re raise then calls on an A high flop?


EDIT just to add surely you aren't saying he calls with KQ or worse unless he has spades?

You push because you are committed to the pot and gain absolutely nothing by checking. By betting all-in, your chips go in the pot in a way that maximizes equity.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Got to shove the flop in the dark here bro.

I love how Fnord posts like a gangsta to go with his avatar

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Certainly if he calls with every hand on any flop, make a small raise. I don't see how you get there, which is why I would rather just get it in pre flop.

I'm puzzled by this opp you are playing who folds a PP pre flop here to a push but calls a re raise then calls on an A high flop?


EDIT just to add surely you aren't saying he calls with KQ or worse unless he has spades?

You push because you are committed to the pot and gain absolutely nothing by checking. By betting all-in, your chips go in the pot in a way that maximizes equity.

this is only true given your bizzare stipulation he calls with broadways on the flop.

Can you give some hands that he calls a push with but won't bet himself?

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Certainly if he calls with every hand on any flop, make a small raise. I don't see how you get there, which is why I would rather just get it in pre flop.

I'm puzzled by this opp you are playing who folds a PP pre flop here to a push but calls a re raise then calls on an A high flop?


EDIT just to add surely you aren't saying he calls with KQ or worse unless he has spades?

You push because you are committed to the pot and gain absolutely nothing by checking. By betting all-in, your chips go in the pot in a way that maximizes equity.

this is only true given your bizzare stipulation he calls with broadways on the flop.

Can you give some hands that he calls a push with but won't bet himself?

Um, please show where I said he calls a flop push with broadways. You realize that there are reasons to bet other than to get called by a worse hand, right?

Um, please show where I said he calls a flop push with broadways.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by drmcboy

what does he call with that we beat on the flop

All pocket pairs (that is, all pocket pairs that he calls with preflop), all high card combinations that don't contain aces. Why is it impossible for two queens to be the best hand here?

You realize that there are reasons to bet other than to get called by a worse hand, right?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying he'll fold a hand we beat?

What I'm saying is:

If he calls a re raise pre flop and doesn't shove, it's maybe so he can fold on a bad flop, and you give him the chance to do it by betting.

If he has a flush draw, he's going to call our push correctly and probably will bet himself.

Otherwise he has worst case 3 outs. If he has something like KT, we give him a free card, but we also give him a chance to catch his kicker so he can call on the turn.

And after we cheked the A high flop he may think we missed and bet anything, or call with a wider range on the turn.

OK I think I figured this out. You read

what does he call with that we beat on the flop

as

what does he call with pre flop that we beat on the flop

where as I meant:

Now that we have a flop, what hands will he call a push with that we beat?

Which is where my comments above are directed.


I think our difference comes in because you think there his range to call a smaller RR pre flop is a lot larger than his range to call a shove with, and further that he will continue with a lot of those hands on the flop.

I disagree - probably he calls a smaller RR with more hands, but I think he gets away from more hands with his remaing 2k or whatever on the flop so I would rather put it in now. But I don't see anyway to convince each other we're right, which probably means it's too close to matter.