Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,291,000 Posts!
Poker ForumTournament Poker

Playing Blinds in SNGs

Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1

    Default Playing Blinds in SNGs

    After reviewing a couple of tournies on here, and after seeing some of the worst blind play ever last night, I wanted to just post some thoughts on blind play in SNGs.

    You see there seems to be a switch in a poker players head when it comes to playing in the blinds. Ego dominates sense, and testosterone sprays all over the keyboard, mouse and over that photo of your wife next to your PC.

    Example from last night. I'm in push/fold mode, I have K4s in BB and SB limps. I insta shove and he tanks and calls with.................

    (I boated up lol)

    Ok so no-one on here is that bad in the blinds, but it's still a place that lots of us lose money.

    There are 3 areas I wanted to talk about.

    1. Completing the SB
    2. Raising the SB
    3. Calling raises from the blinds

    What I'm talking about here is play early on. When you're down to push fold play, or when you're opponents are down there, we play via ICM mainly, and there are tonnes of strat posts about that. I wanted to talk about the three things above, as I believe many players are making costly mistakes all the time from the blinds.

    Underpinning this whole discussion is one idea: You can't win a SNG early, and your edge is when the blinds get higher.

    I make money through sit and goes because I have a good push/fold game. It's nowhere near perfect, but I work on it and the majority of my opponents do not. They make bad shoves and bust, bad calls and bust, and they lose money.

    Early on then, I'm looking to play premiums, and not get involved in marginal situations. In short I want as many chips for later as the cards and the table will allow me, thus maximising the edge I feel I have.

    So on to my thoughts

    1. Completing the SB.

    So let's say we're at 25/50, the button called, you have 65 offsuit and you think "I'm getting 5 to 1 on my money, this is a call." (Good old harrington!) Odds of flopping 2pair? 48.5 to 1. Odds of flopping trips? 73.2 to 1. Odds of flopping a straight? 76.5 to 1

    In short you don't have odds to flop a hand about which you will be almost certain you are best. Suddenly 5 to 1 looks poor.

    Now let me ask some questions. How often does BB raise and are you calling? What do you do if you flop 1 pair? Do you felt an open ended straight draw? If you've flopped something, you bet, and one of the players flats, and an overcard hits, do you bet again?

    Can you see how often you have to fold, and how often you may have bet more and still had to fold? You're burning chips, and the times you do win don't make up for it. If you felt the OESD, and you find someone to go broke with, you lose 2/3 times! You're out, and you can't even get to the stage where you're exploiting your edge!

    So when should you complete. Firstly I'll complete any 2 if there are 5 limpers before me and I have >15 BBs. That's my rule of thumb and it's based on hitting 2 pair or better. If there is only 2 limpers I'll rarely ever complete. Maybe T9s or something, but they have to be suited and I'm only betting a pair if it's top pair.

    What if it's folded to me? I NEVER complete. EVER. I raise or fold, and I raise a LOT tighter than I would in an MTT or in a cash game.

    2. Raising the SB.

    If it's been limped and I have TT+, AJ+ I raise. I don't want to raise wider because I don't want to play OOP post flop with much less.

    If it's folded to me I raise Ax, 22+, K9+,QT+, and suited connectors. (remember I'm talking before we're in push/fold mode.) That may seem tight, but I want to make sure that if I am called, I have something to play with. At low blind levels, opponents very often call their BB with trash, and they often reraise wide. I'll be OOP post flop and I do not want to cripple myself in a blind war.

    As soon as you find yourself with the BB playing back, take your hand off the mouse, and consider whether you want this spot to define your sit and go. Then make your own decision. Too often you have A7o, you raise and the BB pushes over and that ego clicks the call button for you. "He's just bluffing me, and I have an A." Personally, i don't care if he has it or not. I want to be in the end game, and this looks too tight a spot, so let it go. It's amazing how you forget about a hand when the next one is dealt.

    I feel like I've waffled in this section. I wanted to get 2 points across.

    Firstly, just because it's folded to you in the SB it doesn't mean you have to steal. Sure in the late game things are different but up to 25/50 and even at 50/100, you don't need to bother, so only raise good hands.

    Secondly, do not get into a blind war. Take your hand off the mouse and check that ego. The war should come on or near the bubble. Don't get yourself killed in minor skirmishes.

    3. Calling raises from the blinds.

    Ok this is quite different from the other 2. I sat at a $6.50 sng (actually 4) last night, and saw a player called jeanette_33. I noticed her because she was supanova, and because she was at all 4 of my tables. I sharkscoped her and she was a winning player and had played 2000 games at $100-$400, and 500 games at $500-$1000. I took notes and EVERY time she raised, she min raised, which got me thinking.

    You see in HOH and in a lot of pro tutorials they say you should call a min raise with ATC in your BB because you always have the correct odds. Well IMO that's bollocks in SNGs and because jeanette always minraised- it seemed obvious that the high stakes players she's used to playing with agree.

    Firstly, you'll be OOP post flop and it's really hard to play OOP with a marginal hand. Secondly you double your contribution to the pot this hand. In fact calling a minraise from the BB is like completing the SB (odds wise) except you know that someone has something decent already. Surely then you should not do it as often as you would complete.

    Secondly, your BB costs you twice as much this time round. You need all the chips you can get for the business end of a sit and go, and calling a min-raise at 50/100 and having to let it go post flop (as happens more often than not), means you will be the first short. It also means that if you do get the double up, it's for 200 valuable chips less.

    Lastly the whole concept of "better than 2-1 means good odds," only really applies if the cards are face up. Say if you're calling an all in (and in an SNG it's not even that straight forward because of ICM). WHen you're calling a raise, what is more important is the threat of future bets, and the chance of you flopping a hand you like OOP.

    I tend to treat a min-raise like any other, and call or reraise as I would any other. So my advice is if you would not call a 3x bet, don't call a minraise.

    Now what about calling a 3x raise from the BB when there is already a caller. Well you have good odds just like the min-raise, so why not. All the previous arguments apply. Just because you have money in the pot already does not mean you should play a big pot OOP. Things may be different in cash games or mtts when pot odds are everything, but in SNGs pot odds mean much less.

    Everything is decided at the higher blind levels and through the quality of your push/fold game relative to your opponents. Getting involved calling raises from the blinds without premium cards before that stage will cost you money in the long run.

    I used to lose too much money through blind play. I then realised the following:

    Every time I'm in the blinds early I have a greater chance of getting into trouble as I already have chips in the pot.

    Now I actively try harder to stay out of trouble in the blinds, and I believe the money I now save by ignoring those chips is considerable.

    I hope you enjoyed my thoughts, and I know that if you take some of what I've said on board you'll find it profitable, particularly at lower stakes.

    Disclaimer: There may be an edge to be gained via more aggressive blind play in HIGHER STAKES sngs. In low stakes sngs, probably $16, and definitely $6.50 and below, the edge you have playing correct ICM poker later vastly outweighs any edge you think you have in the first 4 blind levels.
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  2. #2
    Good article - thanks for putting it together. I'll sticky this in the Tactics Guide when I get a sec.
  3. #3
    I hate playing the SB, unless the pot is limped and/or the BB is very passive.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  4. #4
    Good post Ginger, you have some very good points in your post. I personally found out about 1 month ago that I am playing too many hands especially from the SB and I am working on cutting that down.

    However I think your view is a bit too tight, there are some advantages of playing from the blinds that you seem to ignore in your post

    1. While a lot of the more important decisions are made on the bubble and ITM there is a big value of coming to this stage with an above average stack, bleeding the blind chips in the 50/100 stage by folding to raises other when you have premium hands can cost you.

    2. There is a lot of value for completing the SB when you have a weak opponent in the BB that folds when he misses, in this case I almost always auto complete and bet the flop

    3. Playing from the blinds requires you to have relatively good post flop skills, since it may put you in tough spots to play, however if you have good post flop skills you can often take advantage of this situation. There is one important aspect when you are completing the SB when the pot is limped by 1 or 2 players, or when calling raises from the BB - since everyone knows you are calling wide it is much harder to put you on a hand, which allows you to win a big pot when you hit the hand, and also allows you to represent a hand that is much harder to represent from other positions

    4. Blind defense - if you fold your blinds too often you will always get raised in the blinds by observant players, giving them a big edge over you, if you defend your blinds occasionally you will see less raises and more walks which translate into free chips


  5. #5
    Hi TLR, thanks for your comments.

    I think the points you make are dangerous to consider for anyone playing in $6.50s or lower, and anyone who is not as vastly experienced as yourself for the following reasons, referring to your numbering above.

    Point 1. Yes but calling raises OOP without premium hands can get you into trouble post flop. I would say that the trouble you can and often do get into constitutes more of a bleeding of chips most of the time.

    Point 2. I agree, but that read takes time to establish. As this post was meant for lower stakes players who have large pools of opponents and relatively small samples, I believe the default should be to not do this. After all, at 15/30, completing and betting out costs an extra 65 chips, to win 30 if BB misses. Not worth it IMO.

    Point 3. Every player *thinks* they have good post flop skills. This is why they get into trouble, and unless you have a shed load of experience, particularly in cash games, you should assume that perhaps your edge is not great enough post flop to allow you call light pre and play OOP. Also the point about making a big pot when you hit the hand. This would have to be a 2pair plus type of hand if you're calling wide. I just don't know if the implied odds are there in a SNG which is by its very nature short stacked. I further think that the vast number of times you end up folding causes damage to your ROI that greatly outweighs the benefit you gain that handful of times you win big.

    Remember you don't win the SNG or make the money with a doubled stack, so the implied odds somehow have to be greater than in a regular game for plays like the ones you suggest to be profitable long term.

    Point 4. I really don't care if my blind is raised by observant players early. Later on, when I'm in push fold mode or they are, they'll find out my blind is not very easy to get. But at 25/50, I really don't care. I don't accept that they get a big edge over me just because I fold my blinds often in the early stages, and I guess that's the point of my post. Big edges just don't exist early in SNGs, particularly the lower buyins to which I refer. The big edges come later, and I don't want to have wasted time, energy and chips trying to be unexploitable for the sake of 20-50 chips.

    All of that said, perhaps my view is too tight for slightly higher stakes, and I say that only because I've not really been there.
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gingerwizard
    Hi TLR, thanks for your comments.

    I think the points you make are dangerous to consider for anyone playing in $6.50s or lower, and anyone who is not as vastly experienced as yourself for the following reasons, referring to your numbering above.

    Point 1. Yes but calling raises OOP without premium hands can get you into trouble post flop. I would say that the trouble you can and often do get into constitutes more of a bleeding of chips most of the time.

    Point 2. I agree, but that read takes time to establish. As this post was meant for lower stakes players who have large pools of opponents and relatively small samples, I believe the default should be to not do this. After all, at 15/30, completing and betting out costs an extra 65 chips, to win 30 if BB misses. Not worth it IMO.

    Point 3. Every player *thinks* they have good post flop skills. This is why they get into trouble, and unless you have a shed load of experience, particularly in cash games, you should assume that perhaps your edge is not great enough post flop to allow you call light pre and play OOP. Also the point about making a big pot when you hit the hand. This would have to be a 2pair plus type of hand if you're calling wide. I just don't know if the implied odds are there in a SNG which is by its very nature short stacked. I further think that the vast number of times you end up folding causes damage to your ROI that greatly outweighs the benefit you gain that handful of times you win big.

    Remember you don't win the SNG or make the money with a doubled stack, so the implied odds somehow have to be greater than in a regular game for plays like the ones you suggest to be profitable long term.

    Point 4. I really don't care if my blind is raised by observant players early. Later on, when I'm in push fold mode or they are, they'll find out my blind is not very easy to get. But at 25/50, I really don't care. I don't accept that they get a big edge over me just because I fold my blinds often in the early stages, and I guess that's the point of my post. Big edges just don't exist early in SNGs, particularly the lower buyins to which I refer. The big edges come later, and I don't want to have wasted time, energy and chips trying to be unexploitable for the sake of 20-50 chips.

    All of that said, perhaps my view is too tight for slightly higher stakes, and I say that only because I've not really been there.
    I think that a lot f our differences have to do with buy in level as well. In the $6.50 and below a good player have a big edge over the average player, so it is easier to avoid marginal situations as often arise from the blinds, I think that in higher buy ins your edge is not that great by playing good push fold poker


  7. #7
    As I said, good post. Now that I've had time to read it a bit more thoroughly, a few comments:

    1. Completing the SB: My general rule in completing the SB with ATC is all to do with implied odds. Depending on the hand, we flop something nice (ie. two pair or better, or a monster draw in the case of a suited connector/gapper) about 3-5% of the time. Therefore, if an opp stacks off every time we hit something nice, we have correct implied odds to call if we can win 20-33x the chips we need to call in the SB. HOWEVER, opps won't stack off every time, so assuming that they only stack off 50% of the time then you need to be able to win 40-60x the chips you need to call to have correct implied odds. Assuming starting stacks, this means never ever completing the SB above 25/50 blinds (unless of course you're trapping because the BB autoraises when limped to).

    2. Raising the SB: This can be quite read dependent. Particularly against tight multitablers, I often open raise ATC even at 25/50. These guys don't want to play postflop (they can't when they're playing 1384730 tables) and since their HUDs will show that I have tight stats, they won't shove back without the goods. If I haven't played a hand when blinds get to 25/50 then the 75 chips will be quite a handy addition to my stack.

    Re calling shoves from the SB, again this is quite read dependent. If I have a read that BB shoves over a steal raise very wide, I will often call with medium pocket pairs and better aces. My default is definitely to fold, but if I have this read I'll use it.

    I also agree with TLR that the complete SB/bet flop sequence isn't bad even at low blinds although I take your point that there aren't that many chips in the pot to win.

    3. Calling raises from the blinds: I generally agree with what you have written here and generally only call raises from the BB if I'm getting unbelievable (ie. 10:1 or so) pot odds.

    That said, if it's folded to the SB who open raises and we have a half decent but not monster hand (eg. KJo, QTs, suited connectors) I sometimes call the raise if SB autoraises when folded to him since we have postflop position and his range will by definition be very wide. I agree with TLR's point that you have to be careful postflop in these sorts of situations if you flop something like top or middle pair; pot control skills are really important (and you can better control the pot size with position).
  8. #8
    I would also like to echo TLR's comments that the appropriate advice does depend very much on the blind level, what is good advice for blind play at the $6.50s may not necessarily all be true at the $60s/$109s.
  9. #9
    I agree with your comments especially the one about calling SB raises. Calling in position to defend blinds is fine with decent cards.

    I like the idea about noticing heavy multi-tablers and raising them. Doesn't happen too often for me though as I often play too many to get that read myself.

    If you're playing $6.50 SNGs or lower I really think you'll profit from reading this thread and taking the advice on board. In the past I have wasted a lot of money making all of these mistakes, if you are grinding the low stakes, maybe this thread could up your ROI.
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  10. #10
    good post, thanks for referring me here. Im definitely going to reevaluate my blind play
    Roco415.
  11. #11
    Great post. I just posted in my blog about how I was beating myself up in the blinds, especially the big blind. Very helpful information here, thanks.
  12. #12
    This flows right along some of the thinking Phil Gordon writes about. Playing the blinds are a negative expectation in the long run. My goal is to find profit with premium hands, and with everything else, try to minimize what I lose in the longterm.
    Also, in SnGs, he suggest waiting until the 50/100 or higher to get involved unless u pick up a premium hand, then by that time you've identified 1 or several players that play way too many hands. Try to get into a big hand with one of those targets, and if you can take a decent pot, you'll be above average without breaking a sweat, and have served notice to the rest of the table.
    Donk Skills:
    #1 The bluff call
    #2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
    __________________________________________________ _____________
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity."
    Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
  13. #13
    Not read that book. WHat is it called?
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  14. #14
    I'm pretty sure it's Gordon's Little Green Book, or Gordon's Little Blue Book.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  15. #15
    I think ginger and TLR make great points in this thread. I think the aggressiveness of the BB is really important. If he is really passive I'll complete with close to ATC and lead out on the flop.

    With a lot of limpers obviously we can complete pretty wide but I think the tricky spots are when there's 1 limper and the BB is unknown. This is where I've been bleeding a lot of chips and I'm trying to really tighten up. When I do complete, I try to play it pretty aggressively when I make a hand or when I think the flop likely missed everyone else.

    eg.

    Full Tilt, 25/50 blinds NL Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players
    Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

    MP1: 2,915 (58.3 bb)
    MP2: 6,685 (133.7 bb)
    MP3: 7,830 (156.6 bb)
    CO: 3,930 (78.6 bb)
    BTN: 2,680 (53.6 bb)
    Hero (SB): 5,600 (112 bb)
    BB: 2,470 (49.4 bb)
    UTG+1: 2,740 (54.8 bb)
    UTG+2: 3,435 (68.7 bb)

    Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with K J
    5 folds, CO calls 50, BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

    Flop: (150) 2 4 4 (3 players)
    Hero bets 150, BB folds, CO folds

    SB: 1,685 (21.1 bb)
    Hero (BB): 3,270 (40.9 bb)
    UTG: 5,130 (64.1 bb)
    MP: 3,440 (43 bb)
    CO: 12,345 (154.3 bb)
    BTN: 4,970 (62.1 bb)

    Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with A 9
    UTG calls 80, MP folds, CO calls 80, BTN folds, SB completes, Hero checks

    Flop: (320) 7 3 2 (4 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets 240, UTG folds, CO folds, SB folds

    Results: 320 pot
    Hero mucked A 9 (high card Ace) and won 320 (240 net)

    These hands probably aren't great examples, but there's a good chance I have the best hand in both and the flops were unlikely to help anyone except the BB. On the KJ hand I think I bet too much and the A9o hand is a little dicey in a 4-way, but the flops are so dry and I have a few outs if I get called by a small unimproved pp.
  16. #16
    I seem to recall watching a TV tournament (WSOP or Poker After Dark) and Daniel Negreanu made an off-the-cuff comment that he thinks the Small Blind is the most mis-played position in poker. He didn't elaborate, though, and I'm curious if anyone here knows what he meant by that.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RockyMoose
    I seem to recall watching a TV tournament (WSOP or Poker After Dark) and Daniel Negreanu made an off-the-cuff comment that he thinks the Small Blind is the most mis-played position in poker. He didn't elaborate, though, and I'm curious if anyone here knows what he meant by that.
    Not sure exactly what he meant, but I think it's because SB is out of position postflop and pot odds can quickly turn into reverse implied odds like this:
    - SB completes
    - BB minraises
    - SB feels compelled to call because of big pot odds
    - The flop gives SB something like middle pair, a weak draw or TPNK and SB is first to act
    - SB bets/semi-bluffs and gets raised
    - SB then has a tough decision to make...
  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    753
    Location
    B.C. Canada
    Nice post with what I believe to be alot of good advice. It is somewhat similiar to how I play from the blinds in early levels of a sng.
    I coach a couple of friends of mine a bit and find it difficult to get these points across to them (basically to simplify things I tell them... You need to be looking for a really good reason to play from the blinds.... not for a good reason to fold in them... & Don't call preflop raises in SB!!! unless you feel you have a decent enough hand to raise with... flatcalls in SB often being read as a med. pkt. pr. in ealry levels).
    Another common mistake I see rookies making in BvB is not making their raises large enough when they do decide to raise it up.

    Sidenote..... a comment re something I read above about how if we're always (or 'most often') folding to preflop raises while in the blinds in early levels, we will be exploited for doing so later on (ie in mid levels...). I disagree with this. Giving up the 25 or 50 chips in early levels is negligible and I believe if anything that this actually helps our image for when blinds do increase as it helps to make our 're-steals' later on to be more believable (let 'em take my 30chips 4 x and the one time I resteal at 50/100 I'm taking it all back and then some).
    I look at alot of the calling preflop raises from the blinds as just 'spewing chips'.. those same chips that are going to be coming in real handy when I do perhaps have to double up, etc.
    I play mostly $6-$11 buyin range though and am not as familiar with higher buyin sngs,.. .although my partner plays the $20-$50's reg. speed and the one's I've watched I think this advice would be applicable there as well.
    Good post.. thanks for posting it. I'm going to refer a few to come and check it out.
  19. #19
    I liked most of your post until I got to the part about completing the SB with any two cards if there's a lot of limpers, I said WAT out loud. You already went over all the reasons why it's good to play tight from the SB and now you want to play 92o in a multiway pot? In which case even when you do make two pair or trips, running into a bigger monster is a very real possibility?
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    I liked most of your post until I got to the part about completing the SB with any two cards if there's a lot of limpers, I said WAT out loud. You already went over all the reasons why it's good to play tight from the SB and now you want to play 92o in a multiway pot? In which case even when you do make two pair or trips, running into a bigger monster is a very real possibility?
    I don't complete atc ever anymore. tbh big family pots are rarer these days anyway, and I don't think winning a big pot 1 time in 100 (and losing a big one every so often as well) makes up for all those times you lose a handful of chips.

    Good comment mcat and thanks for the compliment about the rest.
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  21. #21

    Default Re: Playing Blinds in SNGs

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerwizard
    (...)It's amazing how you forget about a hand when the next one is dealt. (...)
    This is a quotation for future generations...
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gingerwizard View Post
    As soon as you find yourself with the BB playing back, take your hand off the mouse, and consider whether you want this spot to define your sit and go. Then make your own decision.
    Quite simply one of the best phrased pieces of poker advice on this entire forum.
  23. #23
    what happened to ging?
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    what happened to ging?
    Life took over - he got married, and I think they had a kid.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •