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mcatdog
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07-14-2008, 10:55 AM
Post subject: my thoughts on small pairs in MTTs
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I see people misplaying small pairs (22-66) a lot so I want to go over my thoughts on them and maybe we can start a discussion because some people probably disagree with some of these thoughts. I believe small pairs are extremely overrated hands that are often unplayable in MTTs.
There are two situations where a small pair is very valuable. First of all, it's a great hand to get all-in preflop with when you're short stacked. 22 usually has about 40% equity vs a calling range. Compare that with weak aces and small suited connectors, which have 35% equity or less. If you're under 10 BB and it's folded to you, then you should auto-shove any pair from any position. Only exceptions are satellites and other bubble situations where you can't afford to bust.
Likewise, small pairs are great restealing hands. If I have 25 BB or less and an aggressive player raises in late position, I'm all-in with any pocket pair. 22 might actually be the best hand when called! For some reason people like to resteal with small suited connectors, despite the fact that their all-in preflop equity is awful. The best restealing hands are pocket pairs and suited big cards like QJs. You shouldn't resteal with weaker hands unless you have a very strong read that the person is going to fold.
The second reason to play small pairs is to call raises with deep stacks and try to flop a set. I like the raise to be less than 5% of my stack, more like 3% if there are lots of people left to act who could 3-bet and force me to fold. This works best if you're in position, otherwise it's too easy for the preflop raiser to check behind on one street and you won't win a big pot.
Small pairs are NOT good hands to open raise with. I found this out when I went into PokerTracker and discovered that 22-66 as a whole were losing hands when I opened with them from the HJ or earlier. They're just too hard to play out of position post-flop. You can't double barrel like you can with suited connectors, because you have 2 outs. And if you're out of position it's impossible to control the pot and try to get to showdown cheap. So nowadays I just open-fold small pairs unless I'm the CO or button. I'd much rather steal the blinds with any two big cards or any suited gapper that might give me more flexibility to double barrel if I need to.
Example: you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless you're at an extremely tight table. I'd be opening a ton of broadways and suited stuff here, but not 55.
Example: you have 33 in the small blind with 10000 chips at 100/200 and the HJ who has you covered, opens to 600. I strongly believe that this is a FOLD against any half-decent player, even though you're getting 20:1 implied odds. You should be 3-betting his open with a fairly wide range and flatting stuff like 88+ and suited broadways like KQs or AJs. Those hands are a lot easier to play postflop.
That's it for now, if I think of any other situations I'll post them later.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Looks a good topic to discuss.
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you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless
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Why, when you could take the pot uncontested or c bet win. At the end of the day, you do have a hand, unlike the plethora of Ax and broadways, and anyway, your hand could still improve further.
If the table was really loose with constant reraising, then I'd understand your point but you don't stipulate this here.
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you have 33 in the small blind with 10000 chips at 100/200 and the HJ who has you covered, opens to 600. I strongly believe that this is a FOLD against any half-decent player
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Again, why? It's a standard 3x raise from late and the chances are he won't have a pp and will miss the flop. You don't necessarily need to improve yet could well do. If he is a good player then he will be stealing in late position won't he? And if he has you pegged as a good player then you could even reraise him and take the pot. After all, a reraise OOP?
Also, are you talking about just folding 33 or even up to 66? I'd be heavily tempted to play 44 - 66 - unless I am at a loose table with plenty of rereraising.
We all know about "betting/raising gives you 2 ways to win" and the same seems to apply here. By open folding you're not giving yourself a chance to win at all whereas playing gives you the chance to improve or bluff when he's stealing or missed the flop.
It's interesting as I am starting to change my opinion on pps to playing them more often, even calling off 10% of my stack with them. My last bunch of MTTs have all been filled with 'head hunters' (ie: people willing to go broke on Ax or top pair) and a concealed set of 5s on a board of KJ5 is the motherlode. Even a plain set of 5s is good to go against a guy who missed the flop with KA soooooooted. Of course, time will tell if this is a good tactic or not.
Good topic and am looking forward to further contributions.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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Quote:
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Small pairs are NOT good hands to open raise with.
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totally agree, this has made my life easier
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Phantaroth
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 505
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It's something I've been trying to correct in my own game as well. Raising with small pairs was getting me knocked out of tournaments by me either 1. convincing myself to call, or 2. crippling my stack after failed c-bet + turn bet.
So yeah, I agrees.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Agree. Played my first MTT in a while yesterday and saved myself a lot of grief and chips by avoiding tricky spots OOP with small PPs. I used to think this was weaksauce but now I think it's just smart play.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless
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Why, when you could take the pot uncontested or c bet win. At the end of the day, you do have a hand, unlike the plethora of Ax and broadways, and anyway, your hand could still improve further. |
If you open with a bet of 450, you're commiting 7.5% of your stack. You can't stand a reraise and if you miss and c-bet you're probably on the hook for ~20% of your stack on the flop with a hand with very little showdown value. If you check the flop and villain with position bets you pretty much have to fold or play an awkward c/c line with probably second best.
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Originally Posted by Thunder
If the table was really loose with constant reraising, then I'd understand your point but you don't stipulate this here.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Just open-fold unless you're at an extremely tight table.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
you have 33 in the small blind with 10000 chips at 100/200 and the HJ who has you covered, opens to 600. I strongly believe that this is a FOLD against any half-decent player
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Again, why? It's a standard 3x raise from late and the chances are he won't have a pp and will miss the flop. |
Again, you're committing >5% of your stack with a set or forget hand. He's raising from the HJ which makes it less likely to be a steal, so the 7 out of 8 times that you miss you're playing OOP with a hand with very little showdown value.
It's all about avoiding sticky spots and conserving your stack.
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johnny_fish
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07-15-2008, 04:48 AM
Post subject: Re: my thoughts on small pairs in MTTs
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#7 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Nice post.
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Example: you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless you're at an extremely tight table. I'd be opening a ton of broadways and suited stuff here, but not 55.
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This is a little too nitty in general, it depends on the players left to act.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for the info. A question has arisen though. In previous posts about set hunting and implied odds, it's been said that in general up to 10% of your stack can be committed. Both examples here - especially the 2nd one - fit within such set or forget criteria so how is it still bad play?
Also, due to the lunacy of the early stages of MTTs, especially R&A, can it be profitable to step slightly outside the odds to hit that set and rake in a monster pot against someone who's hit top pair?
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Would be interested to hear about the 'up to 10% of your stack to set hunt aspect?'
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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10% is more of a cash game theory stemming from your odds of hitting a set to be about 1 in 8.
But in cash games u can reload if u miss.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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So what's the accepted limit for MTTs - 5%?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Small pocket pairs are basically only valuable early in a tournament...those doublestack tournaments where the blinds start at 30 and you have 100 BB are great...you don't mind limping then calling a 90 more for a raise to stack AA. When the blinds get bigger, they lose a lot of value, unless you find a table where people are limping 1/6th their stack with JTs and Axs. But either the shortstack or big stacks will push over limpers with AK/AQ/AJ etc. and you pretty much have to fold.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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50OUTSonThaRIVR
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: at the table...behind your screen...taking your chips
Posts: 3
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
Small pocket pairs are basically only valuable early in a tournament...
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I totally agree with you there. But I might add that playing heads up, at any time but the bubble, after others fold, with pp vs AK is always tempting. High cards on a low flop are easy to make fold, even with an already good sized pot.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Yeah, and there are always times you have to go with your reads and feel and push your 66 on a 8 5 2 flop. But you go broke a lot (I've done it too many times to count) assuming villain has unpaired high cards.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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rewfie40
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12-10-2008, 05:16 PM
Post subject: Re: my thoughts on small pairs in MTTs
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#15 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 106
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Example: you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless you're at an extremely tight table. I'd be opening a ton of broadways and suited stuff here, but not 55.
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How about limping 55 here? I'm not saying that i think its right or wrong but i would be curious to hear why or why not?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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55 is too weak to open limp. I don't think open limping is awful here with like 99 but I'd still rather just raise most of the time.
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STR8M8
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I believe small pairs are basically just good to limp in with or possible small raise depending on chip stack. Being low chipped or seriously crippled is a time to push with a small pair unless you still have a few bb where you can see some more rounds and your just trying to hold on as long as you can for finishing position.
I also believe small pairs need to be played determined on where your at in the tourney and the aggressiveness of your table, bot what do I know....just a thought to ponder.
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AAsoooted
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: spain
Posts: 19
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for me with small pocs im trying to see as many cheap flops as possible looking to hit the set, why raise pre when you only got 2outs?? i do like to play a tight game early but ive found limping those low pocs to be very profitable in the early stages especially when you hit on a Ahigh flop
if you dont hit its an easy hand to lay down to any action post flop and hasnt cost you too many chips 
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Roco415
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 548
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
So what's the accepted limit for MTTs - 5%?
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hate to reopen the topic but would you think block theory comes into play here...
if you arent familiar block theory was developed by gigabet and basically it says having a certain level of chips say 30 bb-38 bb is equivalent so you could theoretically throw 8 bb in if you 38 because it doesnt change your situation at the table...? im not that well versed in general theory but curious to see what you think
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Roco415.
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Jprofit
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3
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AASOOOTED SAID
"for me with small pocs im trying to see as many cheap flops as possible looking to hit the set, why raise pre when you only got 2outs??"
because limping is generally an incorrect play unless theres other limpers in front. most of the reason ppl raise small pp's pre is to build the pot a little so they get paid when they do hit a set. also because it shows strength and theres going to be alot of flops you are going to be able to c-bet and take down.
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frreshprince
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 100
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i love to play small pairs as much as i can. but i will never ever raise with one. unless the BB is 20% of my stack or more. theres nothing better than just limping in preflop or for cheap money with 3+ people in the hand. and nailing that set. just milk everyone and triple up. gatta love it.
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And i yelled to the cabby YO HOLMES SMELL YA LATER
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toppoker15
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02-24-2009, 01:13 PM
Post subject: Re: my thoughts on small pairs in MTTs
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#22 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1
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This will happen in all the places and no one will see this. They tell that this is some kind of tricks and not a fraud.
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CvntistMcFvk
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High Card
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3
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Some good points in there.
I think there are some other situations where you can play small pp's.
Early position raise/steal with deep stack.
-You probably want min 70bb (2-3x raise), you are one of the tables biggest stacks and have at least 2 other >50bb stacks around.
Hitting a low set from an early position raise is very disguised, and you present a good opportunity to build a gigantic stack from another big stack.
You can also call short stack resteal ai's in a bunch of spots with reasonable equity, and build the stack with not much risk as well. (real good if you are MONSTER stacked and making EP steals)
You don't need to do this all the time, maybe <25% is enough to keep your range balanced enough. Vs difficult opponents.
You probably dont want to go firing multiple barrels from OOP. On most boards flop cb surrender is often good enough, and ones that hit your villains range but not yours, just open check folding is no shame either.
This is not good if you are frequently getting called behind you, the more flops to take, the more chips you burn.
Overlimping
With early limpers in the pot, this is one of the few good set mining spots, and your not gonna find it often more frequently than early stages of fishy tournaments.
If presented with the opportunity, you can probably limp up to 10% of your stack in with 2 limpers+. I wouldn't overlimp 1 villain unless he was mega spaz, or open limp ever.
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Example: you have 33 in the small blind with 10000 chips at 100/200 and the HJ opens to 600. I strongly believe that this is a FOLD against any half-decent player. You should be 3-betting his open with a fairly wide range
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I agree with this idea in a vacuum always.
To call this profitably, you need to have notes your opponent will check down AHigh hands, or cbet give up later streets. You have 50bb so its not gonna hurt your stack to find out vs. this kind of average tag.
Not so many opponents are this easy though. Good villain will barrell correct cards and value bet thin, fish will spaz bluff vs ur weakness and check down bigger showdown value.
If villain is stealing too much I think the correct adjustment is to 3b. You will be able to cb and rep more boards profitably, and he will fold to 3b often (hopefully) enough. Not many villains are comfortable multi floating vs. 3b.
You cant 3b this if villain is floating you too much, you need to start depolarazing your range to hands which play flops stronger (KQs+ 99+)
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you have 55 two off the button with 6000 chips at 75/150 blinds. Just open-fold unless
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This is too nitty, you can raise 2.2x and risk only <7% of your stack to play a pair in position. EZ game
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