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deestee
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03-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Post subject: MTT tourneys for newbies
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#1 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Im a fairly new player i have been playing online for about 2 months now, i haven't lost alot i generally break even. I play alot of small stakes tables and freerolls and small buy in MTT. i consider myself a tight player, i try to follow the 19 hands of poker guidelines. The problem i always seem to have is when i get to the top 20 in a MTT or when im faced with heads up in either SnG's or MTT. When i get to this point i am generally shortstacked with a huge chip disadvantage. And im usually clueless on how to play at this point, my opponent is raising every hand and it takes me twice as much just to see the hand even when im in the BB. Early on in MTT i will play suited connecters and mid to high pairs but for the most part i hang around and play only when my odds are good. Any advice on how to better my play so i won't be in such a bind once i make the top 20 or top 2 or 3? I played in a 3.00 buy in 500 guaranteed last night and finished 6th, my best finish yet in a MTT. The only thing that saved me was i was all in in the BB 3 times and all three times i won with pocket jacks. other than that once i got in the top 20 i just hung out and let others bust out.
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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derekvsmith
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 41
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if u expect to get far in a trny u first off cant be playing suited connectors late in a trny cuz there is no way that ur odded to do so if u are short stacked as well u now have to become a lot more aggressive in position because if u dont pick up your aggresiveness your going to have to wait till u get your premium hand at which point u wont even have any money to make it profitable
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Dude, read this post: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ker-t3027.html
It's in the MTT forum's digest and it's no question the most intense write-up on MTTs I've seen online.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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OneEyeLefty
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the batter's box. Already 0-1 count....
Posts: 125
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I have been reading the digest's on this site for over 6 weeks now and I am no where near done. Anything you could be looking for either generic or specific can be found. I would start with the Beginners Circle and move on once you are done there. I know most of your questions may come within the MTT section. However, there are things that you can pick up from every section. Good Luck and happy fishing.
Lefty
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Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
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deestee
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03-22-2009, 03:31 PM
Post subject: MTT for newbies
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#5 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Generally i won't call suited connectors late, usually early when the blinds are still 20/10c and later on i may call a KJ KQ KA and rarely a K10 suited. What hands do i need to pick up the aggressivness, usually if i have a high pair such as AA, KK, i will raise preflop, if the flush draw flops, or the straight draw i may bet, just to see where the other guys is at, if he comes back with a reraise i usually fold. the majority of hands i win are A high flushes and 3 of a kind, i will slow play them up until the river to try and bait the others, what stance do you take late with 10/9 or J/10 or even 2/3 3/4 suited. Do you go all in with anything other than AA KK? such as JJ, QQ, 99, 10/10? How do you play early to build your stack? i do pretty well in SnG's but the MTT i have much room to improve. My goal is just to finish in the money, atleast enough to get my buy in back, to me as a newbie thats a step foward, im not looking to make a career outta this just make a little spending money on the side and challenge myself at the same time, if one day i make it to a big MTT then awesome, but like i said i just wanna be competitive.
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tanglelegs
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03-22-2009, 03:35 PM
Post subject: heads up
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#6 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 25
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when you get heads up you have to be aggressive and your not going to get alot of killer hands but neither is your opponent. sit down and deal two hands on the table and get an idea of what is going to be dealt.
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OneEyeLefty
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In the batter's box. Already 0-1 count....
Posts: 125
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One thing I have found is that alot of players practice their SnG and MTT game. However, many don't practice HU play. Sure, it may take awhile for players to get HU. But, if you don't practice HU play. How are you going to know what to expect or simply get better? There are many sites that offer HU play now. I would suggest using these games to help make your game better. It's not just enough to get to the FT. One wants to win.
Lefty
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Careful what you wish for.....you just may get it!
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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In SNGs, do you find yourself bubbling out a lot? Check your results. If you are finishing most of the time at around 4-6, but never 8-10, you might be playing too tight. Definitely read the articles here, but also start looking into books like Harrington on Hold (great for MTTs) and Colin Moshman's book on single table SNGs.
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deestee
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03-23-2009, 03:08 AM
Post subject: thanks for the advice everyone
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#9 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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wanted to thank everyone for the advice, as for sit and go tourneys i play them alot, they have the best risk vs reward ratio for me, i almost always finish 3rd or better, with a win here and there. MTT i have improved i was averaging around 50th or worse my first month, now i can generally make it to the top 30. But yeah my heads up, especially with the short stack is lacking. My luck always seems to be the best hand i had the whole tourney was the one i folded lol. So many times if i had just had the cojones to call i could have tripled up or even won. But once again wanted to thank everyone for the advice and i will post when i win one!!! Im due and im confident if i continue to study the game, i will improve over time
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 700
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Quick word of advice - get in on flops in the first few hands of a MTT while the fish factor is still high, and shove when you hit the flop hard. More often than not you'll get a caller and double up. The first few orbits are easy pickings, you won't get chances like that later on.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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fakepro
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Quick word of advice - get in on flops in the first few hands of a MTT while the fish factor is still high, and shove when you hit the flop hard. More often than not you'll get a caller and double up. The first few orbits are easy pickings, you won't get chances like that later on.
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This only works if you have a lot of discipline because there will be a lot of temptation to get involved in pots that you otherwise would not if you adopt a conservative style and you initial starting stack is a lot more important than any other additional chips you may gain in the early stages, due to those the fact that a lot of players will call you down with nothing so a bigger chip only begins to become more advantageous during the later stages of the game.
the play that Locuthefish talks about might give you the chip leader early on , but will cost you the game, that style is know as the super aggressive style employed by Phil Ivey, Gus Hansen and only the really advanced poker players can make this work in the longer run due to it need for tell, table positions and great memory. it may be very draining for neophytes like myself who have won a few FR using this super aggressive style but suffer devastating drain can wreck your poker game in the long run. I would recommend reading the the 8 point article by soupie which was was linked above for any one interested in good general MTT strategy. Have not finished reading the additions by xanti so I can't recommend it yet.
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deestee
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03-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Post subject: thanks again
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#12 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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I have a hard time doing the superaggresive play, it goes against my instinct most of the time. I like the article and what he says is true you can generally make past the first break by doing absolutely nothing. But at the same time playing quality hands when you get them. Thats generally how i try to play, one of my issues is betting big preflop and then the flop offers no help, do you bet big to try to push them out or check? does checking show you are scared, what can a player gather from that. I have gotten caught off guard too many times by a seemingly timid player, and then they burn me with trips or something, it seems when i run into people that play similar to the way i do is when its most challenging for me. the super aggresive guys are difficult too, if by chance i do call em, what if that one time he isin't playing with trash? there are so many variables it can make your head hurt lol. Anyway thanks for the advice i will read up and continue to study.
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fakepro
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03-23-2009, 08:21 PM
Post subject: Re: thanks again
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#13 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by deestee
I have a hard time doing the superaggresive play, it goes against my instinct most of the time. I like the article and what he says is true you can generally make past the first break by doing absolutely nothing. But at the same time playing quality hands when you get them. Thats generally how i try to play, one of my issues is betting big preflop and then the flop offers no help, do you bet big to try to push them out or check? does checking show you are scared, what can a player gather from that. I have gotten caught off guard too many times by a seemingly timid player, and then they burn me with trips or something, it seems when i run into people that play similar to the way i do is when its most challenging for me. the super aggresive guys are difficult too, if by chance i do call em, what if that one time he isin't playing with trash? there are so many variables it can make your head hurt lol. Anyway thanks for the advice i will read up and continue to study.
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it seems to me that you don't understand the importance of varying your bet and using the hammer or the trap against super aggressive players and also your position, how you play cards should differ based on your position at the table and in relation to the super aggressive players, having to act after the super aggressive player gives you more information than acting before them, and often times the so called timid players are the one that if you can't win the pot preflop with a bet about 3xBB then you probably want to think of folding your your unpaired face cards and think of folding anything but a pair of Aces unless you think that person is a calling station.
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deestee
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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i will defenitely keep that in mind, i still have a lot to learn as far as position at the table goes, but folding post flop is something i hate having to do with a high pair such as KK, QQ, or even AA. I try to do like you say and either trap em with a soft bet or check and then push all in or raise 5 to ten times the BB pre flop and take the blinds. if you wouldn't mind explain position to me a little more if u have the time.
Thanks again
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 700
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fakepro
This only works if you have a lot of discipline because there will be a lot of temptation to get involved in pots that you otherwise would not if you adopt a conservative style and you initial starting stack is a lot more important than any other additional chips you may gain in the early stages, due to those the fact that a lot of players will call you down with nothing so a bigger chip only begins to become more advantageous during the later stages of the game.
the play that Locuthefish talks about might give you the chip leader early on , but will cost you the game, that style is know as the super aggressive style employed by Phil Ivey, Gus Hansen and only the really advanced poker players can make this work in the longer run due to it need for tell, table positions and great memory. it may be very draining for neophytes like myself who have won a few FR using this super aggressive style but suffer devastating drain can wreck your poker game in the long run. I would recommend reading the the 8 point article by soupie which was was linked above for any one interested in good general MTT strategy. Have not finished reading the additions by xanti so I can't recommend it yet. |
You're talking about Utility here - Gaining 1500 chips early is far less important than not losing 1500 chips. You're absolutely correct.
What I meant by "first few hands" was "first 2 blind levels", where I'm more than happy to limp in late to a 5 way pot for 1/50th of my stack with unsuited connectors, Axs, hands that are worthless at later stages but could make you a bundle now. As you also pointed out, people will call you with anything at these early stages so if you've got the nuts then shove (in a multiway. Heads up, a check trap would be the better play against aggressive opponents). It's not really 'super aggressive', it's opportunist play. I probably didn't explain it well in my last post.
Destee, it's worth playing honest poker through the first few blind levels, you should catch good cards often enough to keep you going. Of course, if someone checks both flop & turn, feel free to take the pot down with a 1/2 pot bet, whether you have cards or not. Your pre-flop raise should be 3xBB early on, and 2.5xBB when the blinds get high.
Most of the time you're in a flop it will be heads up. Your course of action will depend on what you've got, whether you're In Position (IP) or Out Of Position (OOP), who your opponent is, his likely range, and the effective stack size (who's got the shorter stack and how will it affect your play).
Being OOP means you're first to act post flop. Being IP means you act last. If you're OOP you essentially have to guess what your opponent will do before he actually does it, which can make things quite tricky if your hand isn't a monster or a throwaway. This is why it's important to watch for betting patterns when you're not in a hand, you need to get inside your opponent's heads to give you the edge post-flop.
Do you likely have the best hand?
Are they likely to shove over the top of a small bet?
Are they likely to fold to any bet if they've missed the flop?
Are they likely to bet if you check to them, or check behind?
Are either of your stacks so small that it's a shove or fold situation?
Watching hands you're not involved in will give you this information, knowing what to do with it will only come with practice.
You mentioned that you get far but you're always short stacked. Do you steal more blinds in the late stages? How often do you shove AI on the flop? You need Cajones and luck to get through a MTT, often it involves taking the initiative on the flop and shoving lighter.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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deestee
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03-26-2009, 03:18 PM
Post subject: MTT tourneys
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#16 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Thanks again, i have been using the advice you guys have given me and noticed instant results. I finished 2nd in a 2.20 NL MTT tourney and tripled by buy in. The only reason i busted out in 2nd was because i wasen't paying attention LOL. I went all in with the straight draw showing with 3 of a kind Jacks. I was trying to talk to my wife and didn't even notice the straight draw, rookie mistake lol.
My bankroll is around 58 bucks but i started with 25, so i am excited about that, that was my first goal, to double my deposit, my next goal is 100. Anyway i started betting heavier post flop and caught alot of chips by running people out, and when i got to the final table i started playing alot of riskier hands, calling in the small blind and raising in the BB, and to my surprise alot of the flops were falling my way, the more hands i played the chip bullies started checking and folding instead of raising every BB, once i took the chip lead i started raising every BB, and it worked like magic. When i got to the heads up situation we were basically even, i had maybe a 200 chip lead. I feel like i played well, i just couldn't get my oppenent to push he was playing super tight, in anycase i busted out feeling confident about my play.
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deestee
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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The check trap strategy you refer to is awesome, i love using that, so many times in a MTT that has saved my butt, it allowed me to double or even triple up and i love the reaction you get to it. People are so shocked because they thought they had the hand figured out when they really didn't have a clue. i have had it used on me enought to know LOL. Once again i cannot thank all of you enough for the advice
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deestee
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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I push AI on the flop either with KK AA or AK suited sometimes with QQ or AT suited.
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 700
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You're welcome. Doesn't it feel better going HU when you're not shortied?
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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deestee
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Yes it does its so frustrating being short stacked in any position, because you really end up just playing a crap shoot when you are, skill and strategy become irrevelant and all you can hope for is luck
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deestee
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03-26-2009, 11:36 PM
Post subject: Bad beat lol
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#21 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Took a heartbreaking bad beat today, played a 1,000 guranteed MTT with a 5 dollar buy in, 12 players left 10th to finish in the money. Dealt AA, ranked 9th at the time, i get two calls with an AK and 89 both hands off suit. Opportunity to be 2nd in chips. the 89 picks up the straight on the river. I was devastated i was on the brink of bringing home my biggest payout yet. I even managed the whole tourrney without having to rebuy or add on. I know its part of the game and will happen more often than not, that one was hard to swallow. i was on a roll, played smart and picked my battles. I had to push, it was the only time in the whole tourney i got AA. Maybe i should have slow played it but, i doubt i would have been able to, alot of players were pushing to make that final table. im gonna try to bounce back 2 nite, for the day though i played in 2 MTT's finishing in a respectable 11th and 13th.
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Pino_Diablo
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 64
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lemme guess the 89 was one of the chip leaders?
it happens. with 4 AI you go to 67% winning.
usually i will play 1 or 2 table sng, with more tables the stacks can get out of your comfort zone for late in the game. they do for me.
do you use any 3rd party software?
good discussion
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deestee
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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the 89 was middle of the pack i think, that always seems to be my downfall, i can consistenly finish fairly well, just out side of the money. that does give me some confidence, it makes me feel as if i am on the brink of breaking in, i just need to get a little better. I just read a book called the Theorm of Poker. you may have read it. It has made alot of sense to me and i have started using some of the methods he talks about in the book. The one point slansky makes in his book over and over is make your oppenents pay to see draw, make it hard for them to outdraw you because its gonna cost them. And he talks about always playing just like you were if you could see your oppenents hand. He discusses the bluff, semi bluff, position and situational hands. Pot odds, hand odds he breaks all that down anad makes it much easier for me to understand. Do any of u guys play alot at Carbon Poker or G2G poker, those are the to main sites i play on. Everyone keeps telling me Poker stars is much better because of more players and bigger prize pools. Seems like they are fewer players at carbon and G2G and most of them are really good. I don't have any 3rd party software i would love to have some that would help me with hand odds. i think that could defenitely improve my game.
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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One thing you have to understand is that most of the players at your level aren't worried about pot odds. If they have a draw, a lot of times they'll call your all-in and see what happens. So while what you are doing is correct, you need to prepare for the fact that they will catch occasionally. That will annoy you to no end.
Just like the fool who beat you with the 8-9. It sucks, but you did the right thing. If you have A-A, you're happy to get it all-in pre-flop when you KNOW you have the best hand. After the flop, you can't be so sure. If they call, hey just know that you'll win most of the time there.
I only play Poker Stars for cash, since it's the only place I've got a bankroll. It's certainly the best place to play in my opinion. More people means more games to play. I have played on Carbon but it's hard to play there because it takes so long to get a table.
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deestee
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03-31-2009, 03:19 AM
Post subject: MTT tourneys for newbies
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#25 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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Thanks again for the advice, what you said is true, i am noticing more and more at the tables people calling with straight up junk, and most of the time i folded and would have slaughtered them. And its crazy to watch these people get mad because their K3 off suit didn't win. I have been playing on pureplay a non cash site and trying some different things out. I changed my game up and im making smarter decisions and being more patient. I have been using the pay to play strategy and its already paying off. Even when i feel like i have the second best hand im pushing and i take down alot of pots. For example i am playing in a tourney right now we are at level 7 and im the chip leader already. My confidence is creeping up LOL. Anyway thanks for the pep talk on the AA, i felt like in that situation i had to push, at that time i had the best possible hand, i don't know many people that would have done anything different. I made my first deposit on Stars today so im gonna try my luck and skill there for a month or 2, any tables or tourneys you would reccomend for a new player on stars?
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deestee
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03-31-2009, 12:37 PM
Post subject: Great News
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#26 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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I am happy to report i have reached my second goal. I think i played better last night than i ever have in my life. I played in a1000 dollar Guaranteed R/A tourney with 181 people on Carbon. Once i hit the final table i was the chip leader!!!! I busted out several tournament winners on the way. I started out playing alot of hands early and pushing to steal alot of pots, at the first break i had 7,000 chips which was around 35th or so. When i got to the final table i had over 140,000 chips and didn't add on. I hit a couple of huge hands late and then just hung out. I ended up finishing 3rd and winning 133 bucks which is 5 times what i had in my bankroll at the time, i cashed out 100 immediatlely and left 33 in which with what i already had in there gives me 48 bucks left to play with. i was so excited i couldn't sleep. By no means do i feel like a pro now but i do have more confidence. that was a huge step for me, it felt good to be there competing with the big dogs, and even beating some of em. I contribute my finish to some of the advice i have gotten here and a little luck. LOL i believe my play has now elevated to slightly above a fish, anyone could do what i did with enough luck. Anyway i wanted to let everyone know about my accomplishment and thank them for all the help.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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deestee,
like others have said, read the digest. play tight early, and tighter from early position. open up in the mid stages and start stealing some blinds....you should know from who by now from your "tight" play and WATCHING. once the blinds get so high that most of the players have less than 10 big blinds left in their stacks, you are pretty much done playing any "fancy" poker. your decision is made before the flop even falls by now. and, you must be AGGRESSIVE.....not pushing crappy cards, but pushing when you play and/or on the flop. learn to valuebet the early stages and learn what the others are pushing with and calling with late.
thats about all there is to the lower levels of these things.
if you find yourself wondering about specific scenarios, post them here. these guys are always willing to help. good luck to you.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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deestee
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04-01-2009, 03:53 AM
Post subject: Thanks to all
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#28 (permalink)
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16
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I haven't ran into many scenarios, that i wasan't sure. As for stealing blinds i have really upped my game there, i continue to play tight most of the time, but when it comes down to draw situations i try not to give any free cards, i try to make most people pay if the think they can get me on the draw. Or if i have top pair or maybe even the second best hand i will raise. I raise preflop with a high pair and sometimes suited high face cards. To be honest it seems like my play is actually getting better than the majority of my competition in the smaller stakes games. especially in SnG games. It just seems much easier to finish in the money than it was two weeks ago LOL. And i guess that started after i read a book and changed my play, i can play two or three tables at a time now and not get frustrated. I think i always understood the fundamentals but the mental part, the on the fly decision making is my weakness. I think that too many people rely on pure luck, but as i have now learned it takes a combination of luck and skill. I dunno its such a rush when you take down a huge pot and you know that more than anything you out smarted your opponent. I would love to do this for a living, but thats not even a realistic goal for me, im just your average middle class working man with a wife and two kids and a little bit of spare time. the key for me is to make that spare time profitable. I want to thank everyone again, all your advice has been right on, and i have defenitely profitted from it. I will continue to post when i win. If it seems like i am rambling i apologize, im just amazed at the results i have gotten by just letting myself be a student and staying humble.
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