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| taipan168 |
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OK, here's v1.0. Have incorporated most of the comments below. Further comments most welcome. There are countless other strategy guides out there, however I thought that since FTR seems to attract a high proportion of beginner/low buyin SNG players I would condense the thoughts of a number of posters into one post. These principles are aimed at $5.50/$11 normal and $6.50 and maybe $16 turbo tourneys (and the equivalents at other sites). Note that these are supposed to be general ideas rather than specific 'how-tos', so hopefully they are generally correct even though we might all be able to think of specific situations where another line may be better. For advice on specific hands it is best to post them. Also note that these are NOT in order of importance. DOS 1) Play very tight early in the tourney (Levels 1-3) and even tighter in early position Starting hand requirements have been covered elsewhere but suffice to say if you are playing hands like ATo UTG or QTs in the CO early in the tourney you are playing too loose. Similarly, you are probably playing too loose if you are limping hands like A2-A9o early in the tourney. 2) Loosen up as blinds increase and as the game gets shorthanded, particularly in position when it is folded to you Blind stealing is key once blinds hit 75/150 at PS or 100/200 at PP. Never open limp at 50/100 and above. 3) Be aggressive If you are going to play a hand, you should be raising preflop most of the time (e.g. if blinds are 50/100, you pick QJo in the SB, it’s folded to you, the BB has been playing tight, don’t just complete, RAISE!) The only times I limp preflop are early in the tourney with pocket pairs (playing for set value) or suited connectors in position and preferably with multiple limpers in front. 4) Early in the tourney, limp (and call raises) with low-medium pocket pairs (say 22-88) for set value You have implied odds to play for set value on the flop with pocket pairs provided that the amount you need to call is 1/15 or less of the total chips you can win. Note that this is determined by the smaller of either your stack or your opp’s stack. Eg. you pick up 33 UTG+1 at 10/20 blinds, open limp for 20 chips, button raises to 100, then CALL the raise as you have implied odds to play for a set. However, if you don’t hit a set on the flop, then NO SET = NO BET – see i) below. 5) Raise preflop 3x BB plus 1x BB for each limper with your big hands (e.g. KK) At PS level 1 and 2 add an extra 1x BB to try to thin the field. 6) Push or fold preflop when your stack is <10x BB Standard raising is usually bad when you have <10x BB. 7) Bet your strong hands Don’t slowplay! If you hit a set or two pair on the flop, in general don't check/call (e.g.if you have 55, everybody limps, you limp from the button and the flop comes A85, bet bet bet! You will get paid off by some idiot who limped with A3 soooooted.) 8) Make sure that your bubble/shorthanded play is good and that you make +EV pushes/folds/calls In particular there are situations when it is often +EV to push with any two cards (eg. it’s folded to you in the SB and either your stack or the BB’s stack is <10x BB). This is much harder than it sounds, particularly in the heat of battle. 9) Realise there is a big, huge, ginormous difference between pushing all-in and calling all-in. When you push all-in you add to the strength of your cards the chance that the other player will fold, when you call all-in you must be able to show down the best hand to win. 10) Generally bet between 50% and 100% of the pot at any stage - An example where I would bet 50% of the pot on the flop is if I raised preflop, got called, missed the flop, my opponent checks, and I knew he/she was weak/tight. A half-pot bet is also a good sized bet if you flop a set against one opp who likes to chase flushes and two of a suit come on the flop. - An example of where I would bet 100% of the pot is if I raised preflop with QQ, got two callers and the flop came T  9 2 .11) Realise that at low buyins TPTK is often the best hand on the flop even when opps lead into you after you have raised preflop For example blinds 50/100, you raise to 275 on the button with AQs, BB calls, flop comes Q83 rainbow, opp leads for 300 – push all in! The times when your opponents flip QT and you stack them far outweigh the times when they have a set or two pair. 12) Realise that low buyin players LOVE to play A-rag Blinds 25/50, you're on the button with KK, 4 players limp in front of you, you raise to 350, get 3 callers, flop comes A94, SHUT DOWN, there is a very high likelihood that somebody has an ace and you are well behind drawing to 2 outs. Conversely you can take advantage of this on an A high flop if you have AK or a pocket pair which hits a set, you are very likely to get paid off by one of these A-crap donks. 13) Get SnG Power Tools or SNG Wizard when your bankroll can support it It is the best single poker-related $79 (or $99 in the case of SNG Wiz) I have ever spent. It will help you learn #8 among other things. 14) Make the time to review your HHs/run them through SNGPT/SNG Wiz If that means playing one less SNG then so be it, it is time well spent. 15) Post hands, if necessary post whole (trimmed) tourneys to get feedback Some of the biggest improvements I have made have come about because I have had another player review my hand histories and give me feedback. Sometimes you have leaks that you miss but become bleeding obvious once someone else highlights them. Just remember to take the feedback on board! FTR is a friendly place and people are out there to help you. Just remember to take their feedback on board! 16) Realise that bad, horrible, appalling, one-outer beats do happen... ...and that the best way to console yourself is to be sure that you got your money in as a favourite - if you did, there is nothing else you can do, you effectively won. Your AA will be cracked by rubbish like QTs 19.5% of the time when your preflop push is called BUT the other 80.5% of the time you double up/take opp's whole stack. The question to ask yourself is "would I have played differently?" and if the answer is "no", then be happy whatever the results might be. 17) Remember that poker is a long term game Long term means thousands, not hundreds of SNGs. Do realise that even the best players suffer streaks of 10+ SNGs out of the money and 20+ buyin downswings. Stick to your game and you will win money in the end. DON'TS a) Don’t get fancy at low buyins ABC poker wins. There's no need for fancy slowplays, check-raises, raises with air, stop 'n' gos, etc. at the $5.50s. Wait for good hands and bet them hard - see #6 above. Conversely, if you pick up AK preflop and raise, get called, flop comes T74 rainbow, throw out a 1/2 pot c-bet, get called again, miss the turn, betting is often spewing chips unless you hit. b) Never minraise preflop This is a waste of chips. At the low buyins the BB and often the SB won’t fold for another 1-1.5x BB. Plus if you have a strong hand like AK, over the long run you win by getting your opps to put more money into the pot when you’re very likely ahead. c) Don’t minbet postflop This is a complete waste of chips and achieves nothing. If you have a hand with which you’d rather not get any calls, a minbet won’t get the $5.50 donks to fold. If you have a hand with which you would like calls, then bet more to build a pot. The best way to win a big pot with a big hand is to BET to build a big pot! d) Almost never minraise postflop The only time I will minraise is to induce a push over when I flop the ‘non-vulnerable’ nuts (quads or full house) and opp leads into me. e) Don’t worry about varying your play so people wont get reads on you They simply don’t pay attention, you don’t have a table image at low buyins. Also, don’t worry about playing with marginal hands so you’ll get action with your big hands – if someone else has a marginal hand like JTo you’ll get action with your AA even if you’ve folded the last 3 orbits. f) Don’t call all-in with less than two pair if your flop bet is called and opp pushes on the turn Sure, sometimes you fold the best hand but more often than not opp will have the goods. g) Don’t bluff loose passive players who will call your preflop raises with crap then keep on calling to showdown with bottom pair This is spewing chips. It’s similar to what Doyle Brunson said – you can’t bluff a calling station, you have to show them the best hand at showdown. h) Don’t ever fold AA or KK preflop Rarely fold QQ preflop unless there is serious action in front (e.g. raise, push and call) or there is some unusual bubble situation (e.g. it’s 4-handed, you’re second stack, the small stack has 2x BB and the big stack pushes). i) Don't get married to hands like AK and low pocket pairs that need to improve if you miss the flop I've seen countless times when players limp preflop with 55, flop comes all overcards, bet, get called, miss the turn, bet again, get called again, miss the river, bet yet again, get called and end up losing a big pot to somebody who called all the way to showdown with TPNK. With low/medium pocket pairs, remember SET OR FORGET; with missed high cards like AK/AQ remember all you have on a missed flop is ace high. j) Don't play when you are on tilt, tired, drunk, stoned, grumpy, just had an argument with your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend, whatever Recognising when you are not playing your best and just NOT PLAYING is very +EV. Even more important, if you're on tilt because you've just taken six bad beats in a row don't move up buyins to try to recover what you've lost. There are enough sad statistics on Sharkscope of players who usually play the $6.50s, lose 4 in a row then proceed to spew even more money at the $16s, $27s and $60s... k) Don't believe "I can't win at the $5.50s, I will win more by moving up and playing with players who respect my bets/raises" This is plain wrong. Sure, players at higher buyins may play tighter and may well fold a bit more often to your preflop raises or postflop bets but there are so many other ways which they can pwn you - they will be MUCH more aggressive, generally displaying a good understanding of bubble play/ICM etc. If you can't consistently beat the $5.50s over a few hundred SnGs then you will NOT beat the $22s, $33s and $55s. l) Don’t get defensive when people reply to your posts saying you’re incorrect Justifying a bad play to yourself won’t make you money, improving your play will. |
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | |||||||||
| Madizm |
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| taipan168 |
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| soft |
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5) Push or fold preflop when your stack is <10x BB Standard raising is usually bad when you have <10x BB. I hate this, its Harringtons book thing and what he thinks. 10xbb isnt a critical stack like he makes it to be. And another thing is that I have seen so many ppl that makes critics on his SnGs section and I dont even like it either. This strategy also depends on the structure of the game, just look at Paradise, the blinds get bigger faster late than any other site, on pokerstars you can relax with 10xbb. On paradise you have to take more chances because the blinds increase every 10 hands and not 8 min, this means more agressive bubble play on paradise. |
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| taipan168 |
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I do agree that you need to be selective with the hands you push with a <10x BB stack, but I think the general principle that if you are prepared to call a push over with whatever hand you are 3x BB raising then you should just get it all in first still holds. Plus if you are raising hands like AK that only get value from seeing all 5 cards then standard raising and folding when you miss the flop is spewing chips IMO. |
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| FlyingSaucy |
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excellent post taipan. I play intermediate level sngs now, but almost all of these points apply to mid-level buy-ins as well, with the exception of 5, 10, and 11. 10 you have to be really careful with. 11 is very true for low sngs but much more rare for $22-$33's. 5, well I disagree with this, both for low buyins and mid level buyins. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic though, I'll just say that I think you can easily go as low as 6 or 7 BB's before entering this "mode," depending on how full the table is still and their relative stack sizes. B is not true when the blinds are high and there is a short stack in the BB. D should include this statement as caveat. E is still true at mid levels, interestingly enough. Again, excellent post. I've actually been wanting to post something along these lines but more simplified and even more general, and ranked in order of importance of concept. Oh, and by the way, L is not necessarily true - if you know more than the person disagreeing with you. 
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| taipan168 |
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Thanks for the feedback! I'll put together v0.3 when I get a chance. Also swiggedy was involved in this too, I'm not going to take all the credit. Quote:
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EDIT: Once you are more skilled I agree you can go a bit lower before push/fold but I think 10x BB is a better rule for new players to avoid the following scenario where shoving all-in preflop would save spewing chips: - Hero has 10x BB left. Folded to Hero on the button with AJo. Hero raises to 2.5x BB, SB folds and the BB calls. - Hero has 7.5x BB left, flop comes K95 two spades. BB checks. Hero throws out c-bet of 3x BB into the 5.5x BB pot. BB calls. Pot is 11.5x BB. - Hero has 4.5x BB left, turn is a blank. Check/check. - River is a non-spade J. BB shoves all-in. Hero ???? Quote:
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| taipan168 |
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| Bump - I added a point and tidied up some of the wording. Any comments would be welcome! | ||||||||
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| Sprayed |
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| f) is my leak. Although I'm not calling all ins, however my variation is that I need to respect aggression in general on the turn. Too many times I get min raised on the turn to find out that he had me at hello. | ||||||||
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| TLR |
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Point 4: I dont totally agree with it. TT,99 are powerful hands in MP-LP when folded to you, you usually want to raise them, and if called and the flop is all unders you have the best hand most of the times, if it comes with overs, its depends. From EP I tend to fold the lowest PP (22-44 maybe even 55,66 depends on table aggressiveness). Against a single opponent set-it or forget it is not always correct, especially if the raise is from LP and the flop is rags. #6: I have seen the debate here, I think the important point is not push/fold, it is raise/fold, and only play hands you are willing to put your entire stack on. With 9 BB I have no problem raising 3BB, most of the time I will call an AI from 1 opponent, and most of the time I would push the flop. #10: I would change it to bet 50-100% of the flop, anything less then 50% is rare, there may be cases to slowplay as well, and I can find exceptions to any rule here, the 25% case is the exception, not the standard 'do' |
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| taipan168 |
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| TLR |
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Taipan wrote: Quote:
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| nominate for sticky | ||||||||
  
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| Sheetah |
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 This pretty much sums all you need to be EV+ in SNGs Quote:
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| Xioustic |
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Thought this was already stickied, It needs to be. |
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^ Worst advice possible, don't listen ^
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| dom_dart |
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| keep Dont's K in mind. Are you saying that if you consistantly win at the 5.50 tables. That the player needs to move up! keep a 20X to 30x buy-in bankroll management scheme in use putting your bankroll at $200 - $300. This would allow you to play $10+1 MT SnGs. or something very close to that, depending on how loose you play, and still be profitable at a higher level or am I reading to much into this poker thing. | ||||||||
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| DanAronG |
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| Dom, I'm totally confused but what you are trying to say. | ||||||||
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| Nakamura |
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I like this thread, well done Taipan. I do think there need to be a little more on position. e.g. open raising UTG+1 with 99 is unlikely to be profitable, but same hand played in same way on the button, is usually quite profitable. I could think of a few other points, but I think they fall out of the ABC poker category. All you need now a bit of colour! |
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| Poker Orifice |
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Yah, I didn't mention it but I like this post as well. I've actually used this one for guidelines when trying to coach a few players who are bigger noobs than myself. Well done! |
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"SEIBORG"
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| DanAronG |
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Thanks for writing such a comprehensive list of the basic principles needed for the game. Can I sugest that you delete it now so no more people can learn it 
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| Outlaw |
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Nice post. For those wanting to look at the approximate ranges we should be pushing during bubble play. I made this post awhile back. http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ummies%20guide I basically ran a whole bunch of common situations through SNG wizard so I could better get a grasp of how good (or poor) of holdings I can profitably push in the late game. Since I did that research that day, I went from a whole bunch of 3rds and 2nds to now having a lot more 1sts than 2nds or 3rds. In a nutshell: when the blinds hit like 100/200+.. its almost always right to push any two from the SB (depends on calling ranges) in most 1 table sngs |
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| lNormajean |
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| great post | ||||||||
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| Vex444 |
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Don't play when you are on tilt, tired, drunk, stoned, grumpy, just had an argument with your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend, whatever LOL no one would be playing poker then |
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| pokerhouse2 |
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| Very good post. This is the kind of poker I play frequently so I will keep these tips in mind. I think you're best analysis in this post is that of the mind. Your read an the actions and reactions of players at these kinds of tables is fantastic. | ||||||||
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| fakedecoy |
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| Can you back up #8 with a little data on odds? I find it hard to swallow and can't figure out how to rationalize such a move, especially with rags. | ||||||||
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| taipan168 |
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BB is an average player, not too loose and not too tight. You estimate that if you shove, you will get called 20% of the time (so he calls with 33+, A2s+, A4o+, KQo and KTs+). - If you shove, 80% of the time BB will fold and you will have 1550 chips worth 12.1% of the prize pool - 20% of the time BB will call. 84s will win 33.8% of the time against top 20% of hands. If you win you will have 2800 chips worth 20.2% of the prize pool, if you lose you will be out. - Therefore, if you shove, your share of the prize pool will be (on average) (0.8 * 12.1%) + (0.2 * 0.338 * 20.2%) = 11.05% of the prize pool - If you fold, you will have 1325 chips worth 10.46% of the prize pool Therefore, shoving is 0.59% of the prize pool better than folding. In this example, opp would have to be calling wider than about 30% of hands to make this a bad shove. Most opps won't call off their whole stack in this spot with hands as weak as K4s and JTs which are at the bottom of the 30% range. |
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| Trons |
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About the <10bb shoving, I think a lot of people are in the mind set (we've all seen it) that if they great hand pre, they actually want action...This is why people late in tourneys limp AA utg (or kk or AK or whatever)... This is fine if you have the stack to absorb the loss. When it's your tourney life on the line, I think it's a mistake. Why would you want to give a suited connectored big stack a chance to draw out on you? Something I've seen as well is people with ~10bb stack making standard 3x raise from lp when folded to them. The idea here, i believe is to try to get somebody involved in the pot or to get an aggressive bb to 3bet them. I don't mind this as much if you are planned to go with the hand regardless of what the flop is. 3x PFR then c or f the flop is horrible with this stack size. As a side note, if the BB is good enough to 3bet your 3x pfr, then odds are, he's good enough to realize that: A) you've pot commited yourself and therefore he'll be forced to either call your shove or fold on the flop spewing his chips, or: B) he'll call your AI because he knows you have the ability to do it light, and so he'll do that with any hands he'd 3bet you with anyway...better to just shove, make your AA look like it's lighter and you're on a steal and go from there. Those are just some of my opinions from what i've read on this. Other then that, solid thread. I also agree with the statement that you can go shorter then 10x before being forced to shove ATC, which some people mentioned, but since I didn't see that covered by OP, i figured that they were mistaking the shove or fold with that stack to mean that you should shove ATC with that stack. |
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| fakedecoy |
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| Great info, taipan. That's what I was looking for. When the blinds get high I've been doing a lot of 2xBB raises from the button or SB when it's folded to me with a 10xBB stack, because 3xBB was too much to commit, and a push seemed too loose. I'll try pushing more often and see how things go. | ||||||||
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| DomB |
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Great post Taipan thank you. Your guide and the pushing/calling ranges are helping me however I'm still crashing out before I get paid. Perhaps I'm too new to know better but it seems the few times I get good cards (or more importantly good flops) I can progress to the FT but that's far too rare! Way more of the time I have to play with a much wider range and/or missed flops and it doesn't go well. I believe I have learnt to fold at the correct time and also not waste my chips playing out of position. I push as SNG Wizard instructs however it just doesn't turn out well. Two main things happen - players raise before I get a chance to steal the blinds or when I push, my cards turn out to be weak and I lose even quicker. Am I simply not choosing players ranges right? I am wrong to play MTTs and 40 to 90 player SNGs? Do I need PT3 or something like it? |
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| rspeirsmlb |
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I consider myself a decent SNG player....why? Well, between reading THIS posting over and over and over again and playing thousands of sngs and reverting to this over and over again. You will get there!!!!! Try this: 1. Play 5 sng, read this article...... 2. play another 5 sng, read this article..... 3. repeat steps 1 and 2 over and over until you feel like you are a computer because you are so consistant with your play. Consistancy is key in sng's...this article taught me this a few months ago. I've been a winning multi-tabler for 4 months now because of this forum  ....thanks Taipan!!!!
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| tim412 |
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Thanks for posting this topic, Solid info that i know, just need to read & remind myself. I decided I would like to master SnG's, for some reason I enjoy the tournament style more (Probably from all of the neighborhood home games LOL) started a couple weeks ago playing $1 SnG's on full tilt, with my roll @ $53.xx I'll get in 2 or 4 per night 2-tabling, currently @$69.xx. Wasn't sure if all of this would apply @ my $1 level, but seems good so far. I know I used to play to loose early on, So I think I fixed a major leak from reading this thread. I plan to reread this thread often to re-remind myself. |
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"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money!".......M. Thatcher
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| cliffkh69 |
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| thanks for the great post. The one I need to focus on is the bubble play and pushing more in SB. I get passive at the end trying to not get knocked out on the bubble, and waiting for two other guys to commit their chips against each other. | ||||||||
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| djh860 |
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5) Raise preflop 3x BB plus 1x BB for each limper with your big hands (e.g. KK) At PS level 1 and 2 add an extra 1x BB to try to thin the field. I have found that you can bet very small PF late in the tournament. And get all the folds you need. I always raise 2.5X pf and it works fantastic. |
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| Extremophile |
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All the players had been playing relatively tight preflop including myself. Suddenly, both of them snap called with crap because it was cheap to call. They probably thought I was stealing the blinds even though I didn't steal their blinds before. Attention to BB's stack size: he is investing 10% of his chips to make this call. These guys' tendencies may lean toward calling at any stage of the game. So, make it bigger pre! PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com MP (t1733) Hero (Button) (t2345) SB (t10337) BB (t2642) UTG (t5808) Hero's M: 7.82 Preflop: Hero is Button with A  , A 2 folds, Hero bets t440, SB calls t340, BB calls t240 Flop: (t1320) 9  , 8, 4 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t1200, 1 fold, BB raises to t2202 (All-In), Hero calls t705 (All-In) Turn: (t5130) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)River: (t5130) 5  (2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: t5130 Results: Hero had A , A (one pair, Aces).BB had 9 , 8 (two pair, nines and eights).Outcome: BB won t5130 |
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| flomarilius |
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| That tactic about raising per limper worked for me earlier today. I think that it's a good way to keep bad beats from killing your roll. | ||||||||
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| SMRZ |
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Limpers = Loose, but so do many other factors. |
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| djh860 |
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| ImMasBerTO |
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| good post, its really helped me on my sit n go games | ||||||||
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