Originally Posted by GatorJH

If you really want to open your pre-flop range early in the tourney I don't think K7 or J7 suited are hands that you want to limp with. You are better off with connectors, suited connectors (even one off connectors if you REALLY want to open it up), but you really need to remember why you are playing them.

Actually I have been contemplating the same thing so it will be interesting to hear what others have to say.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

FWIW, Kxs and Axs play nearly the same postflop in my book.

And just to throw the math side in: you're flopping two-pair+ around 5% of the time. So when you hit, you need to make 20x the cost of limping to make this break-even. If you think you can reasonably do that, then limp on!

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

FWIW, Kxs and Axs play nearly the same postflop in my book.

I think it's reasonable on the first level or two to take a flop with a wide range of "potential" hands if you're in position in an unraised pot with a couple of other limpers. I'm generally looking for two-pair+ to keep going post-flop. I'm not semi-bluffing early, and I'm not calling more than a minbet to draw. And just to throw the math side in: you're flopping two-pair+ around 5% of the time. So when you hit, you need to make 20x the cost of limping to make this break-even. If you think you can reasonably do that, then limp on! If you drop more than a couple hundred chips, it's probably time to tighten up and conserve the rest of your chips as artillery.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

Right on just like hitting a set!!! about 4% on flop.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Just FYI in case you were serious...you're about 12% to flop a set with a pocket pair.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

I was. You dont want to hear my theorum why

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

I was. You dont want to hear my theorum why

Originally Posted by GatorJH

That is an interesting point and may be why a hand like K7, J7 is better in this spot as your hand will be VERY diguised when you do flop 2 pair or better which would make it easier to get 2ox against a hand like TPTK.

With that said as Jeffrey said I think the conditions need to be perfect for this to be worthwile in a SNG where the blinds go up quicker than in a MTT.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

But anways 52/47 x 2 =2.01

2.01, 2,01, 2.01 = about 6.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

But anways 52/47 x 2 =2.01

2.01, 2,01, 2.01 = about 6.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Maybe this is part of the "ideal situation" but if you get raised pre-flop and have to ditch your hand then 20x won't cut it either.

If it gets raised 1 in 3 times, now you're paying 1.5BB to see the flop and need to make 1.5 * 20 = 30 BB to break even.

If it's raised 1 in 5, you're paying 1.25 so you need 25BB

Also, you need to average 20x (or 25x or 30x). So you really need to win more because often enough you won't get paid.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

But anways 52/47 x 2 =2.01

2.01, 2,01, 2.01 = about 6.

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

Yeah im a fool..Okay.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

^^^ you're trying too hard

Originally Posted by Random_Hero

you've proved it in the past...

anyway, please explain sum you posted a few posts back... or was it just made up?

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

But anways 52/47 x 2 =2.01

2.01, 2,01, 2.01 = about 6.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Now you're making up your own maths? You are truly amazing

I couldn't find his theory post, but here's a good one...
Pocket Pair Problems

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

FWIW, Kxs and Axs play nearly the same postflop in my book.

I think it's reasonable on the first level or two to take a flop with a wide range of "potential" hands if you're in position in an unraised pot with a couple of other limpers. I'm generally looking for two-pair+ to keep going post-flop. I'm not semi-bluffing early, and I'm not calling more than a minbet to draw. And just to throw the math side in: you're flopping two-pair+ around 5% of the time. So when you hit, you need to make 20x the cost of limping to make this break-even. If you think you can reasonably do that, then limp on! If you drop more than a couple hundred chips, it's probably time to tighten up and conserve the rest of your chips as artillery.

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

I'm beginning to worship just about everything JGB says.

In reviewing my HH this week I've come across a major preflop leak in my game - limping with weak hands in the blinds. Either calling from the SB with a weak drawing hand, or calling a minraise from the BB with a weak drawing hand. You just can't afford to do it.

Say you're in the SB with Axs and there is one limper. Fold. 2 limpers? fold. 3 or more limpers? Consider the call, if the BB is not aggressive preflop. It is simply not worth it calling in the SB when 95% of the time you are going to see a worthless flop and are OOP. Limping behind early in the game with 2 or 3 other limpers already in, maybe. But definitely not in the blinds.

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

I'm beginning to worship just about everything JGB says.