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gabe
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10-26-2005, 04:42 PM
Post subject: KK with an ace!
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#1 (permalink)
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first hand of a sng, someone triples the blind UTG, folded around to the button where you reraise to 9x with KK. the blinds folds and UTG calls. the flopes comes Ad9s3h and villian checks.
betting this flop is incorrect.
discuss.
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ProZachNation
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Full House
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Well since he calls the 9XBB bet he would probably have, AA, KK, QQ, or AK, AQ(questionable)
The way I see it he would have you beat more than half the time and is looking to check-raise here. But if he had AA I think he would push all-in into the 9xBB raise or push it higher.
So he checks to you, you are probably beat, check hope the rivers a K and hope he aint holding the rockets.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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jstrope
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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beacuse you're beat and AA would check-raise or check-call here.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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I think you're both way off.
You only get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. Taking a free card probably wont let worse hands catch up to you but you are giving op another street to define his hand. Plus thinking nits love to put YOU on AA here.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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gabe
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its the first level of a sng, this person doesn't necessarily have one of these hands.
what if the person open raises from the CO? their hands widen somewhat, but it is still incorrect to bet.
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jstrope
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 51
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Plus thinking nits love to put YOU on AA here.
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Hence the reason I said not to bet. AA would check here. If op bets into me here on the flop, I often smooth-call and raise the turn bet if I think I can push him off. Your reraise preflop reps rockets and you should continue on that path.
If someone in the CO does the same, I'm not sure I act differently because they're calling the pre-flop reraise. I need to have a existing read on someone to assume that they're calling a preflop reraise with junk. What am I missing?
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A10Chief
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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From the mind of an evil noob...I wouldn't get stupid here b/c it's so early and even your 9x raise is only 90 chips, which really ain't shit compared to the enormous amount you lose when you start getting cute here. I'd check it down and hope for a K on fourth street.
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There's three types of people in the world...those who can count, and those who can't.
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I would bet 100$ & see what he does. First hand is always crazy, he could just as easy have 22. Fold to any aggresion. I would bet he folds after that flop.
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gabe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by brian1175
I would bet 100$ & see what he does. First hand is always crazy, he could just as easy have 22. Fold to any aggresion. I would bet he folds after that flop.
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betting is bad here. why bet??
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Rockymv
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
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wouldn't the buy-in be pretty integral to answering this question?
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jpin109
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20
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honestly i wouldnt check this after the flop cause alot of people in early stages of the tournament call any raise with pocket pairs or even kq kj j10 or any ace x. i would bet the flop double what u bet preflop hoping he doesnt have big slick Aq or Aj or Ax. if he reraises you then i would fold if he calls then you have to be careful he might have a small pocket pair and fold but i wouldnt check after the flop with the kings and let him steal the pot with a small pair or some other bullshit like qj or kq or kj or j10.i feel checking the flop after a big preflop raise shows your weakness. to many times i threw down the best hand to a smaller pocket pair. this may seem dumb but it always works out best for me when i have pocket k's with an ace on board if he has the ace trust me he will let you know he has the ace after your flop bet. like i said i read in plent y of books with pocket k's with an ace on board is to bet the flop to see where you stand if he calls or reraises you then be prepared to check after the turn which he may also check to give the free card on the river. thats just my info it might not be the smartest move but it still can help to see where your at with your k's. so what im trying to say is to bet big preflop then to check the flop to me shows weakness and alot of times the guy can steal the pot from you. sorry about my rambling
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{This post has been removed}
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gabe
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better hands call you, worse hands fold, the only way you make money from worse hands is by catching bluffs, which you don't do by betting.
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konahead
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Full House
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I usually throw out a continuation bet of 1/2 pot and and see how opp reacts. If called or raised, I slow way down or fold. But to check and give a free card is bad imho, unless you plan on betting the turn. You can't check-raise the turn cuz you have position....
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gabe
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betting costs you money. what free card are you scared of? you have the same chance of hitting your two outer (if that is what you are worried about), which means you can make more from the person if they have an ace.
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
betting costs you money. what free card are you scared of? you have the same chance of hitting your two outer (if that is what you are worried about), which means you can make more from the person if they have an ace.
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i swear iv read this in a book somewhere...
cant quite remmeber where tho but its a great thread gabe.
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MAX
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Gabe, I understand where you are coming from. Your strat is perfect for river play. But this is just the flop. What happens when you check and he pots the turn? You are right about worse hands folding, but giving free cards with the best hand isn't great either. In addition to maximizing my winnings, I want to minimize my losses. I think villian either has the A or a smaller pp. A half pot bet may help me find out where I stand and discourage a bluff attempt to make me fold the better hand. As to what is the most profitable...... hard to say, but without trips, do you really want to play a big pot here?
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
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What happens when he 3/4s the turn gabe?
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MAX
Gabe, I understand where you are coming from. Your strat is perfect for river play. But this is just the flop. What happens when you check and he pots the turn? You are right about worse hands folding, but giving free cards with the best hand isn't great either. In addition to maximizing my winnings, I want to minimize my losses. I think villian either has the A or a smaller pp. A half pot bet may help me find out where I stand and discourage a bluff attempt to make me fold the better hand. As to what is the most profitable...... hard to say, but without trips, do you really want to play a big pot here?
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a bet on the flop loses money in the long run. i think you see why, but you didnt say it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqc
What happens when he 3/4s the turn gabe?
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depends on opponent. most of the time its call, fold to another bet on the river, or call and check behind river. most people wont bet twice without an ace because they are scared of you slowplaying AA AK.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
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This sounds like good advice if the opponent is a thinking player, but what if he's the type of player who will call you down all the way to the river with any pair and any draw?
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stranglin
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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I've always been a big fan of defining my hand strength. I can't see how you can do that by checking the flop. Although there are arguments for checking the flop, I'd rather bet. If you bet half the pot, there are three things that can happen. A) he comes over the top, and you know you're behind (especially since it's the first hand). B) he folds, and you move on to the next hand. C) he calls. Now I would be very suspicious. If he checks the turn, I check behind, and depending on the size of the river bet, I call. If he bets the turn, I'd probably lay it down.
The problem with not betting the flop is, what do you do when he bets the turn? If you call the turn, then you'd have to call the river, because it's unlikely he improved his hand.
The thinking that "better hands call and worse hands fold" gives a lot of credit to your opponent. I wouldn't rule out the person folding a hand like A5s or calling with qq - tt, t9s.
Anyway, that's my $0.02.
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loanhorse
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Straight
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I think the reason GABE posted this was to show that he thinks betting the flop is -EV in the longrun. Yet, you have to see where your at Gabe, giving an opponent a free card is against all poker rules. I REPEAT DONT GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS ANY FREE CARDS. See where you stand with a bet, its not like your commited if he check raises or check calls. If you decide to just check the hand, you have not defined your strong hand or repped the ace. Therefore your opponent will attack the pot when he sees your weakness and you will not know where you clearly stand.
btw one more thing there is key information missing from your post such as buyin, blah blah. Like if this was a 5.50 sng you might just push first hand because people will not give you credit for a hand, they'd think your some crazy maniac.
-Loanhorse'
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Xianti: Are you friends with loanhorse?
Triptanes: No, he lives in Washington while I live in Texas. I admit he can be retarded.
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stranglin
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.
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loanhorse
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Straight
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Quote:
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One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.
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EXACTLY. I will never check this flop. EVER.
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Robert
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Full House
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I'm interested in just taking the pot down on the flop by repping the ace. If you feel very comfortable postflop its of course more +EV to check the flop and catch an occasional bluff on the turn or river. But if you are the kind of guy (like me), who wont feel comfortable calling a potsized bet on the turn from opp in EP when theres an ace on the flop - then I would say its more +EV to repp the ace on the flop.
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MAX
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Atlanta
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ROBERT- checking the flop and calling the pot on the turn costs about the same as repping the A on the flop and gets you an extra card to improve by getting you to the river.
Gabe's line may make us uncomfortable, but it may still get us the most when we win and lose less when we are beat.
LETS SAY-
If opp. has the A then he will raise the turn and probably raise the river. We will call the turn and fold the river- losing a total of 1 call(pot or whatever) - which is the least we lose when we raise it ourselves and gives us 1 less card to chase our K.
If opp. doesn't have the A, he will still take a shot at some point if we keep checking, but is unlikely to again after being called once. So in this scenario we win 1 extra bet (pot or whatever) by check/calling than if we took it down at the flop.
If he never takes a shot, we get a cheap showdown which is good- especially on THE FIRST HAND OF AN SNG<--- don't forget this
If you give him free cards, he probably is drawing to a 2 outer or needs runner-runner. Either way, you will basically only lose the extra bet+pot you didn't protect when he hits because you aren't calling any more than that. The times you hit your trips balance this out due to the potential to double up (which you are not offering him unless he holds 1 hand [AA] and you hit your trips), not to mention the extra bet you pick up when he takes a stab.
If you take this line, someone will have to be willing to put in 2x the 150 pot on the first hand of the SNG to outplay you and I usually like to play with that type of player anyways.
After all that, i think an argument may still be made to try to take it down due to it being the 1st hand and the chips lost costing more than the chips won. But the cheapest showdown may come from checking the flop so I like Gabe's line the best.
Food for thought: Gabe, KK is almost the same as having Ax because either your opp. has a better A or he doesn't. So, do you check that flop and play it the same with Ax--- I know you wouldn't be in that situation with Ax but is there a diff. btwn Ax and KK there?
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
This sounds like good advice if the opponent is a thinking player, but what if he's the type of player who will call you down all the way to the river with any pair and any draw?
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what draw is there on the flop? also, even fish know when to fold to bets on ace high flops, unless they have the ace.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by stranglin
I've always been a big fan of defining my hand strength. I can't see how you can do that by checking the flop. Although there are arguments for checking the flop, I'd rather bet.
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if you are fine with losing chips, go ahead and "define your hand strength."
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Originally Posted by stranglin
One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.
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already said:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"depends on opponent. most of the time its call, fold to another bet on the river, or call and check behind river. most people wont bet twice without an ace because they are scared of you slowplaying AA AK."
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loanhorse.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
I'm interested in just taking the pot down on the flop by repping the ace.
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we all want to take down pots, but betting here is leaking chips.
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loanhorse
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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YES we all want to take down pots, but betting here is leaking chips.
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Yep we all want to take down pots! YET GABE... Betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to define your hand. I would not criticize anyone who choose to do this. Yes, its scary repping the flop knowing if he chooses to call or reraise your beat but that way you keep things simple. Dont try to make plays that will get you into complicated situations unless your confident in your abilities.
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2+2=4
F+T+R= Flop Turn River
L+H= Loanhorse
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gabe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by loanhorse
Yeah, we all want to take down pots, but betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to see where your at.
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whats the point of this?
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loanhorse
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
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loanhorse wrote:
Yeah, we all want to take down pots, but betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to see where your at.
Sorry, If i lost you. Betting here is not a horrible decision since your betting and representing the ace. IN other words, your acting like you have an ace and our making a value bet. The purpose of the bet is to define your hand and you know if he chooses to call or reraise you have a CLEAR decision to see if your beat. Hope this helps!
LOANHORSE
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gabe
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so you represent the ace, and anyone with an ace calls, and anyone without an ace folds. that seems like it will cost you money.
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Rockymv
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Full House
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you make a convincing argument gabe.
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loanhorse
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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so you represent the ace, and anyone with an ace calls, and anyone without an ace folds. that seems like it will cost you money.
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So you check and your opponent gets a free card that helps his hand. UM GABE...That seems like it will cost you money.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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arkana
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
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And if you are first to act?
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salsa4ever
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.
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that is exactly the point!
You DON'T want to make a continuation bet because you WANT that JJ to throw a bet at you on the turn, in which case you call it.
Lets say you get what you want, and the JJ folds. Then you lost the bet he would have made. Whereas if you bet, an ace will not fold. It's important that villain called a big raise, because that means he's probably not holding 9h 10h or a hand that has a realistic chance of outdrawing you.
If on the turn he checks should hero check behind and bet/call the river, or bet the turn? I lean towards checking behind.
This situation reminds me of draw poker, a game i've been playing lots of lately. Lets say UTG calls, it's folded to me in SB and I raise with 2-pair 5544J, the BB folds, UTG calls. He takes one, I take one. This situation is as clearly a check call as you will ever get. For the same reason; i can beat a bluff and not much else.
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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GixMage
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 56
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After he checked the flop, he has one of the following: 1) A-high or AA, and is hoping to trap/check raise, 2) a pp lower than yours, 3) A-x suited, or 4) KQ or something retarded and missed completely. If you make a probe bet, you can see where you stand, and play out the rest of the hand with that knowledge. If he reraises, you're done with the hand. If he flat calls, I would put him on Ax, but with the added incentive of probably having it checked down to the river. PP or worse fold (u win the pot, inless he's a moron and u get his chips). If you DONT bet, he WILL bet the turn. If he has QQ or JJ, thats all fine and good. But if he has Ax, you are losing money. And can you call big bets on the turn and river here? (which is how QQ should play this against you). This is also avoiding the fact that by checking u are giving free cards. What happens when 77 catches his set on the turn? How far can you go with this hand blind with no information? Its early, I personally would like to see where I am in the hand, esp with no reads. just my 2 cents.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
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I am betting 3/4 of the pot here. I have a strong hand but I need information, and the only way to get it is a pot-sized bet or thereabouts.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
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I think Gabe's point is that you don't need information to play the hand, and as such, a bet is a waste. You make more when you're ahead if you don't bet (because of a worse hand bluffing instead of folding). Assuming you are going to call opp's turn bet, and this bet will be comparable in size to the one you were going to make, you're losing the same if you're behind (assuming you fold to another bet on the river and that only a hand that can beat you will bet the river).
It's that last point that makes me unsure. If I see it go check-check, check-call, I might bet the river with any two. It's harder to bet into aggression from a flop bet (while not holding a hand). You also are going to lose to the random Ax hands here, which likely would have folded on the flop. Despite these drawbacks, I think it may indeed be stronger to play this line than to bet, especially since by calling your reraise preflop, opp has demonstrated that if he does hold Ax, he's likely to call with it postflop, since he's a donk.
Related question: same scenario, but you were the EP raiser, and your opp just called your first (5x) preflop raise. Here I think you have to bet and define your hand, because you don't have position, meaning you're going to give your opponent more chances to make a play.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Very good thread. Thought provoking to say the least. I never would have considered playing KK like that with an A on the board, but I never would have thought about it in quite this way before. I guess now I will not only have to ask myself what I want to accomplish with a bet, but also if I should want to accomplish this.
I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.
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I'd probably fold to just the flop bet unless I had strong reads (presumably from notes since it's early in the SnG). You showed a good amount of strength preflop. For him to decide he's better than you post-flop, usually he has some sort of a hand that will beat you. Calling this raise is burning chips.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.
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salsa4ever did a good job of handling this one.
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Originally Posted by arkana
And if you are first to act?
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thats for an entirely different thread...
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Originally Posted by GixMage
After he checked the flop, he has one of the following: 1) A-high or AA, and is hoping to trap/check raise, 2) a pp lower than yours, 3) A-x suited, or 4) KQ or something retarded and missed completely. If you make a probe bet, you can see where you stand, and play out the rest of the hand with that knowledge. If he reraises, you're done with the hand. If he flat calls, I would put him on Ax, but with the added incentive of probably having it checked down to the river. PP or worse fold (u win the pot, inless he's a moron and u get his chips). If you DONT bet, he WILL bet the turn. If he has QQ or JJ, thats all fine and good. But if he has Ax, you are losing money. And can you call big bets on the turn and river here? (which is how QQ should play this against you). This is also avoiding the fact that by checking u are giving free cards. What happens when 77 catches his set on the turn? How far can you go with this hand blind with no information? Its early, I personally would like to see where I am in the hand, esp with no reads. just my 2 cents.
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everything here has already been brought up i think.
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Originally Posted by biondino
I am betting 3/4 of the pot here. I have a strong hand but I need information, and the only way to get it is a pot-sized bet or thereabouts.
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why do you people want so much information? you are way ahead or way behind, betting is not how to handle the situation.
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Originally Posted by pgil
Very good thread. Thought provoking to say the least. I never would have considered playing KK like that with an A on the board, but I never would have thought about it in quite this way before. I guess now I will not only have to ask myself what I want to accomplish with a bet, but also if I should want to accomplish this.
I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.
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glad you enjoyed it!
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thirteen
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 235
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I think this is a leak in my game... I would probably make a continuation bet here also. However, after weighing the issue I think that it's the wrong play.
Lets look at it from the perspective of someone holding an Ace.
I limp in with something like AJs. You make a decent raise in late position. I call and the flop comes Axx. You make a 1/2 pot sized continuation bet as was suggested above. What have you told me? Have you 'repped' an A? No, you pretty much just announced that you have a pocket pair lower than an Ace. So I call to keep you in the hand.
Even if you make a 3/4 pot sized bet someone might pick you off with a decent Ace. You may be giving more information than you end up getting here. The only hands to fold are worse hands that you want to keep in the pot.
I read the arguments but I agree with Gabe.
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
Posts: 1,109
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Ok, you are right gabe. I think you've helped plugged a (very) small leak in my game.
Good thread sir!
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,427
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I am adding this to the FAQ thread, its a damn good discussion and ... its just pretty damn sexy.
NH SIR NH!
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loanhorse
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 212
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yeah i agree vqchang this is one of ftr's best
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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The limit folks have been well aware of way ahead/behind for quite some time now...
How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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I just had a hand very much like this where I had KK, raised preflop, was called by the BB, and checked to on the A high flop. Alas, I hadn't read this thread yet and I made a 2/3 pot continuation bet and was called. I thought, "how the heck do I play this hand?" and was gonna post it until I remembered I hadn't read this thread yet (stupid me). Pretty good that your post addressed my exact question, thanks Gabe. Good move to put this in the FAQs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.
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Is it that overcards can't come and kill you? With QQ/JJ you could be way-ahead but fall way-behind on the next card... so you're almost forced to bet something. With KK you're going to stay ahead if you are right now.
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Gareth
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FlopTurnRivered
Posts: 246
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Interesting Thread.
This is part of my game that i'm working on, every action check, bet, raise or fold has to be thought through - why you are doing this action? what do you hope to accomplish?
In this situation as Gabe has already said you are either a huge favourite or a big underdog,
If you are the huge favourite and lead out on the flop your opponent will more than likely fold - this can't be good as you have made the worst hand fold when you should be trying to get him to bet into you. So a check would be the correct play.
If you are the big underdog and leading out on the flop you are likely to be check raised and will fold, now your opponent might just call you giving you a small chance to hit a King on the turn but you have still had to put in a 1/2, 3/4 or 1/1 pot bet - this is quite clearly a losing play - So you should check and you might hit your King for free.
Hope this makes sense
Great post Gabe
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"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle." - Confucius
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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