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Raoni_Poker
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08-28-2009, 01:35 AM
Post subject: JJ in the first hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 265
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Hi all,
I'm not posting a hand here, its more a question. I read in a Brazillian forum (the biggest one) one player asking for advice in a hand. It was the first hand of the tourney ($1 SnG at Fulltilt) and he was UTG.
He raised something around 4,5BBs UTG and the BB shoved over him.
Many grinders of this forum claimed that he should play JJ in this spot for set value only. Limp in and hope to make a set. I never heard of this in any of the books I've read. On the contrary, Harrington advices to raise a bit more with JJ to shut down the action.
I wonder what you guys think of his raise. Would you limp and play for set value?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I cant remember the last time I limped better than 99 from any position in an STT.
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Just playing to improve.
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Fortitude
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 78
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Definitely would raise. If it is first hand and it is similar blind structure to Stars / FTP; I would raise 4x BB. Limping for set value makes JJ as good a hand as 22 because you're letting Ax, Kx, Qx see a flop for cheap, and a flop with any of these cards basically kills the value of JJ. JJ is a very strong hand and should be played as such. I would limp 22-99 from UTG early game and maybe raise TT depending on how I'm running for that day.
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Raoni_Poker
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 265
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Thats so good to hear that (actually, read). I have no idea why those grinders think that way. Perhaps they play way too many tables just being ultra tight and forget the nuances of the game. Perhaps some of them play too much DON's (an effective way to unlearn poker).
I am still waiting for replies there, but now I can make my point with more confidence.
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Nakamura
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Grindin'
Posts: 1,515
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I used to limp for set value here, which isn't the worst thing I think. You are not making JJ = 22, since sometimes the flop is going to be undercards, which never happens with 22.
With JJ you have to realise you are going to bet/folding a lot of the time. There aren't going to be too many flops where you are going to continue beyond a c-bet either.
Still there is probably more value in raising pre-flop than limping for set value.
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reasons14
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Two Pair
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ILOVETRIPTANES
Posts: 40
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Fortitude said it pretty well imo.
JJ is very std pf raise and TT is mood dependent. Anything else below that is good for a limp. Gl with your games
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ehkay47
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11
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lol limp for set value.
nah, not me anyways. ever.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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I would definitely raise JJ. It has just too much value to turn into a baby pocket pair by limping and as Fortitude said, allowing other players to see a cheap/free flop. 22-99 I'd limp for set value.
I used to limp TT from UTG (and I think it could go either way) but these days I mostly raise it because I back myself to be able to play a little postflop.
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RoundThemUPjoe
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MI
Posts: 19
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The way I look at it why limp UTG for set value and give 8 players with a chance to hit a K with K2 and play their strong kicker to showdown and beat you....raise get everyone out and play the hand verse 1 or 2 people rather than the whole table. don't be afraid to cbet if a scare card hits but also realize it's the first hand if they push you.....it's easy to let go...in your example someone pushed all in and JJ was only in for 80 chips...easy lay down for me I want to see the flop and out play the other guy....and if you happen to hit a set hopefully have them stack off to you....Gl at the tables
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jennizzen
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 23
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I'll sound a little redundant here, but I can't think of any reason to limp JJ. It's taking a marginal hand and making it more so, by giving more people a chance to hit on the flop.
It's not a huge leak to lay down a preflop raise if you end up facing a scary board on the flop, especially if you're generally a tight player overall, but it's a lot harder to win a tournament if you're limping in on decent hands and just hoping to win the hands in which you hit a set.
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JJ isn´t a good hand
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headwrench5
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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The way I look at it. The more money you put in sooner, the harder it is for a draw to make a hand. So if you go strong early in the hand with JJ your more likely to win but, not as much because it pushes players out.
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rspeirsmlb
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 54
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Being first hand and blinds only at 10/20, UTG with high PP (JJ+) I raise it about 6xbb to scare off any potential limpers. and C-bet EVERY flop type, unless flop is all suited....in which most cases I will check/raise as a semi-bluff to the flushy board.
As for 22-TT in EP, limp away my friend, (unless playing DON SNG) but for set value only.
Hope this helps.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rspeirsmlb
Being first hand and blinds only at 10/20, UTG with high PP (JJ+) I raise it about 6xbb to scare off any potential limpers. and C-bet EVERY flop type, unless flop is all suited....in which most cases I will check/raise as a semi-bluff to the flushy board.
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I don't agree with this - why would you raise 6x BB and build a massive pot, thereby making your flop c-bet proportionately bigger if you're called? 4x BB is plenty (5x BB at a very low buyin).
Also, I do not agree with c-betting every flop, you need to assess flop texture before deciding whether to bet. If you get called by 3 opps and the flop comes A72 rainbow or KQ9 two suited, betting is a waste of chips. I dislike the check-raise on a monotone board even more unless we have some kind of combo draw as well.
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rspeirsmlb
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 54
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I forgot to add a very important point to my statement. Let me rephrase my advice on Cbetting every flop......this is assuming going into the flop HU. Not multiple opponents.
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rspeirsmlb
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 54
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Damnit....I reread my post and didn't take the time to clarify game type and level of buyin. I didn't see Raoni was referring to $1 SNG. (many donks at this buy-in level, especially in first level of blinds). I wouldn't c-bet too often unless I'm 90% sure I'm ahead at lower $ SNG, due to the massive amount of calling stations. Unless it is a block bet on a good draw.
I exclusively multi-table the $25 DON, and this play being UTG, at the $25 buy-ins works fairly well. NOW if I were in this situation in a $1 sng, I'd be less aggressive and wait untill someone stacks off to me.
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caddie444
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: constantly UTG
Posts: 722
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For me this is a very relative spot. What I mean by this is that JJ UTG is not a spot where I, or many other poker players for that matter, feel especially confident in.
It is totally not uncommon for you to get multiple callers in the early stages in this spot. Even when you do get the "all undercards" flop, opponents will usually have decent equity vs you with their drawing hands.
By playing JJ strongly in this spot, you cannot be afraid to go all in if you think you have the best of it. The problem is, unless you have specific notes on villains, there is a huge amount of speculation when it comes to putting them on a range. When I have no reads, timing and bet sizing are what I have to rely on.
I prefer to get a feel for how my opponents play before committing all my chips, and I also feel that my edge is when the blinds get high.
Having said all that, I still raise here because JJ has too much inherent value... 4x to go baby and lets play a flop.... If I get stacked, I take notes
I limp 10-10
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