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baudib
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11-02-2009, 05:43 AM
Post subject: JJ -- this is becoming a standard fold
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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Villain had been quiet through 2 rounds, raising twice in late position and getting folds, called a raise in late position and folding on an Axx flop, and not playing any other hands (3 out of 18).
The number of boring TAGgy $10 tournament players capable of 3-betting with TT- are very small. Still...too weak?
No Limit Holdem Tournament
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$15,000 Guarantee (Rebuy)
Stacks:
UTG (14,242)
UTG+1 (10,943)
MP1 (4,755)
MP2 (22,141)
Hero (MP3) (32,847)
CO (36,431)
BTN (14,770)
SB (7,562)
BB (22,335)
Blinds: 250/500 Ante 50
Pre-Flop: (1,200, 9 players) Hero is MP3  
4 folds, Hero raises to 1,500, CO raises to 4,485, 3 folds, Hero folds
Final Pot: 7,185
CO wins 7,185 (net +2,650)
Hero lost 1,550
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fjuanl
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,446
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I think with 40BB stacks I would just ship it in, but with 60BB stacks I'm not sure if thats best. My first thought was that sizing looks like what an MTT regular would go to, not some $11 nit. It looks like this is an $11 rebuy so it wouldn't be unrealistic if this villain was a mid/high stakes regular who can 3bet more than just TT+ AK
Is calling the 3bet an option? I feel like I would be hating life but folding pre just doesn't seem right given your both in late-position.
Making a small 4bet to induce doesn't seem like an option, stacks seem too shallow and its a stretch to assume this guy has a 5bet bluff range.
In the end I'd probably give him the pile. I bet if you OPR villain his average buyin will be >$50 which often means he can 3bet light. reggy sizing tells
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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dont you have odds to set mine?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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juan I think you're overestimating the amount of people who 3 bet wide at any stakes, esp with money left behind.
Being OOP I think folding is fine, I would usually call IP.
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Ravageur
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Official Montreal SwampRat
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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I think just shipping seems bad only because (regardless of the BBs) i'm not sure villain would get it in with a range worse than AK+, QQ+ vs the only other relative bigstack at the table.
This is just a random thought but what about 4-bet folding to like 10.5k pre? How terrible is it to potentially throw away 1/3 of your stack if you think it enables you to take pot down vs his air and fold vs hands that crush you (obv you're gonna get owned by AK here a portion of the time).
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Family Cruise IMO
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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you do run into the occasional aggro-donk who 3bets ATs but I just felt that this guy seemed too unimaginative and tight .. probably 90% of MTT guys like this have a 3-bet range of precisely QQ+....
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Cant you call this just to set mine? I also think this would be AQ+ some % of the time.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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are we really going to fold when the flop comes T92?
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
are we really going to fold when the flop comes T92?
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I think it would depend on whether villain cbets with air or not. On a board like that I would certainly call to play the turn.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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how many streets are we calling down when we know he has QQ?
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
I think just shipping seems bad only because (regardless of the BBs) i'm not sure villain would get it in with a range worse than AK+, QQ+ vs the only other relative bigstack at the table.
This is just a random thought but what about 4-bet folding to like 10.5k pre? How terrible is it to potentially throw away 1/3 of your stack if you think it enables you to take pot down vs his air and fold vs hands that crush you (obv you're gonna get owned by AK here a portion of the time).
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anything but this.
turning JJ into a bluff seems bad imo
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derp
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,604
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dthorne04
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ravageur
I think just shipping seems bad only because (regardless of the BBs) i'm not sure villain would get it in with a range worse than AK+, QQ+ vs the only other relative bigstack at the table.
This is just a random thought but what about 4-bet folding to like 10.5k pre? How terrible is it to potentially throw away 1/3 of your stack if you think it enables you to take pot down vs his air and fold vs hands that crush you (obv you're gonna get owned by AK here a portion of the time).
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anything but this.
turning JJ into a bluff seems bad imo |
If we assume villain is 3betting a wide enough range that 4bet 'bluffing' with JJ is +EV, then why wouldn't we just call the 3bet? He's probably going to make his hand pretty transparent either on the flop. or at the very least turn. That is checking back missed AK (maybe AQ) because a failed cbet is quite a large portion of the effective stack. So seems like we could own the likely bad villain here in this manner.
But I know nothing about playing solid in a tourney fwiw.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
how many streets are we calling down when we know he has QQ?
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None? Idk how you can put a villain on QQ exactly just because they 3-bet you.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I put him on QQ, because that's what these types of players 3-bet with.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Given your read on opp, I think I'd fold this too. I think the problem with calling is one of reverse implied odds - as you said, how many chips will you lose on an undercard flop?
If opp was a LAGGtard (or a blufftard who will 3-bet but fold to a shove!) then shoving over is fine obv.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
I put him on QQ, because that's what these types of players 3-bet with.
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But they dont with AK, AA, KK, JJ, TT?
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dthorne04
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: hi
Posts: 478
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derp
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