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JJ 1st hand (6.50)

  
 
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DetroitHusling101
Old 12-28-2007, 10:35 PM     Post subject: JJ 1st hand (6.50) #1 (permalink)  
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Shove? Flat call? Fold?
If i flat call i have to go broke with a overpair right?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO (t1500)
Button (t1480)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1540)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, Hero raises to t120, CO raises to t340, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-63115.htm

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courtiebee
Old 12-29-2007, 01:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I instashove this.



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mattiesmat
Old 12-29-2007, 01:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I sharkscope him, but fold if he isn't a loser, because I do not think we are ahead of his range enough if he is a winner.
I am just another learning player, so read my comments (very) open minded.
 
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taipan168
Old 12-29-2007, 02:30 AM #4 (permalink)  
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It is very read dependent. I agree with mattiesmat, I would Sharkscope him and if he's a loser or if you have reads from previous tourneys I would shove; if he's not a donkey I fold.
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courtiebee
Old 12-29-2007, 02:34 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 There are only 3 hands you don't want to see. There are a lot more hands that the villain reraises with that you beat.

Of course reads would be nice, but I was assuming there were none.



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taipan168
Old 12-29-2007, 02:40 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Hmm, maybe at a $6.50 I'd lean in favour of shoving over, at a higher buyin I think opp's range is very heavily weighted towards QQ+ so I'd let it go.
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Ragnar4
Old 12-29-2007, 02:49 AM #7 (permalink)  
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If you flat call, you can still get away from the hand PF if the texture of the flop misses. But you have to stack him if you set up to make it worth it. think you can do that?

That having been said, I agree with Instashove after sharkscope. Although at a 6 dollar sng, an instashove is probably +EV all the time.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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henriquebs
Old 12-29-2007, 04:58 AM #8 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
If you flat call, you can still get away from the hand PF if the texture of the flop misses. But you have to stack him if you set up to make it worth it. think you can do that?

That having been said, I agree with Instashove after sharkscope. Although at a 6 dollar sng, an instashove is probably +EV all the time.
I Agree with the first part. But I donīt agree with the second. Which hands he can have that becomes this move EV+? I think he only will call with AQ+ and TT+. and if it is a flip, dont you think it is too early for this?
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taipan168
Old 12-29-2007, 06:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henriquebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
If you flat call, you can still get away from the hand PF if the texture of the flop misses. But you have to stack him if you set up to make it worth it. think you can do that?

That having been said, I agree with Instashove after sharkscope. Although at a 6 dollar sng, an instashove is probably +EV all the time.
I Agree with the first part. But I donīt agree with the second. Which hands he can have that becomes this move EV+? I think he only will call with AQ+ and TT+. and if it is a flip, dont you think it is too early for this?
On the first part, I do not like flat calling because it is 25% of your stack and you are OOP postflop. What do we do if overcards come?

On the second part, at a $6.50 tourney you see people re-raising with all sorts of weird hands, including total bluffs which they likely give up if you shove over or (even better) CALL with when they are way behind. Check this out from a $5.50 SNG I played about 2 years ago:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO (t1500)
Button (t1490)
Hero (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1480)
UTG+1 (t1550)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 5 folds, Hero raises to t80, BB calls t60, UTG+1 raises to t560, Hero raises to t1480, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t920.

Flop: (t3040) 2, A, 6 (2 players)

Turn: (t3040) A (2 players)

River: (t3040) T (2 players)

Final Pot: t3040

Results below:
Hero has Qc Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
UTG+1 has 8s 9c (a pair of Aces).
Outcome: Hero wins t3040.
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henriquebs
Old 12-29-2007, 10:58 AM #10 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by taipan168
Quote:
Originally Posted by henriquebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
If you flat call, you can still get away from the hand PF if the texture of the flop misses. But you have to stack him if you set up to make it worth it. think you can do that?

That having been said, I agree with Instashove after sharkscope. Although at a 6 dollar sng, an instashove is probably +EV all the time.
I Agree with the first part. But I donīt agree with the second. Which hands he can have that becomes this move EV+? I think he only will call with AQ+ and TT+. and if it is a flip, dont you think it is too early for this?
On the first part, I do not like flat calling because it is 25% of your stack and you are OOP postflop. What do we do if overcards come?

On the second part, at a $6.50 tourney you see people re-raising with all sorts of weird hands, including total bluffs which they likely give up if you shove over or (even better) CALL with when they are way behind.
I dont think that the most of people play like this way you showed, i think that you are (in most of cases) in a coin flip. If over cards come, you can let it go, and still have 1,1K cheaps. You are still in the game. If no over cards comes, good chance to be way ahead.
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taipan168
Old 12-29-2007, 03:21 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henriquebs
I dont think that the most of people play like this way you showed, i think that you are (in most of cases) in a coin flip. If over cards come, you can let it go, and still have 1,1K cheaps. You are still in the game. If no over cards comes, good chance to be way ahead.
For me, this hand is one to either shove or fold preflop, calling is no good. Here are the reasons:

1. If you think that opp is tight and he re-raises with say JJ+, AK - then if you call and if the flop comes all undercards to your JJ then more than half (18/35) of the hands he has still beat you and you lose your whole stack. That's why if you think opp is tight, you should just fold it.

2. If you think that opp is loose and he re-raises with (say) 66+, AT+ then you are way ahead of his range preflop and should just shove it here. Very few opps will fold to a shove after having re-raised, so you should just try to get all your chips in here since you are ahead of his range.

3. Whether opp is tight or loose, if you just flat call and say the flop comes Q72 rainbow, is your line check/fold on the flop? If so, you fold the best hand quite often.
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Shep
Old 12-31-2007, 01:56 AM #12 (permalink)  
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One of the biggest misread from the comments I've seen, is assuming anything about the player. The simple fact is this is a 1st hand, and no reads have been made against the player, unless of course you've played with them before.

I personally feel a reraise is adequate to check the quality of your opponents hand. Not necesarily a shove. If your opponent comes over the top of your reraise, you must assume your beat. A mere call, should put your opponent on ace with big kicker. Then play the flop accordingly.
Good luck in the future.

-Shep!
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taipan168
Old 12-31-2007, 07:27 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
I personally feel a reraise is adequate to check the quality of your opponents hand. Not necesarily a shove. If your opponent comes over the top of your reraise, you must assume your beat. A mere call, should put your opponent on ace with big kicker.
Sorry to be harsh, but this is really really bad if you want to re-raise less than all-in then think about folding either to a preflop shove or a flop shove. If you re-raise it will be about half your stack in the pot so you will have irresistable odds to call if opp shoves over.

Push/fold preflop >>>>>>>>> call >>>>>>>> re-raise less than AI
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Geanooooo
Old 12-31-2007, 03:32 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Just fold it. We arent really ahead of any type of realistic 3 betting range this early even at the 6.50s.
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courtiebee
Old 12-31-2007, 07:32 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geanooooo
Just fold it. We arent really ahead of any type of realistic 3 betting range this early even at the 6.50s.
Anyone who's played a decent number of SnGs knows that this statement is wrong, and it's not even only at the $6.50s. I have played $55s and seen ridiculous 3 bets and calls for their stack. Obviously buyin plays a huge role in a hand like this where it's all about ranges, and at the $6.50s, JJ is the best hand a huge percentage of the time.

By the way, the fact that it IS this early in the tournament makes me wanna push even more. There are so many people who don't mind gambling to double up early in any sort of tournament, especially online because it's so easy to start a new one if you go busto.



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Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
 
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DetroitHusling101
Old 12-31-2007, 08:43 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by courtiebee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geanooooo
Just fold it. We arent really ahead of any type of realistic 3 betting range this early even at the 6.50s.
Anyone who's played a decent number of SnGs knows that this statement is wrong, and it's not even only at the $6.50s. I have played $55s and seen ridiculous 3 bets and calls for their stack. Obviously buyin plays a huge role in a hand like this where it's all about ranges, and at the $6.50s, JJ is the best hand a huge percentage of the time.

By the way, the fact that it IS this early in the tournament makes me wanna push even more. There are so many people who don't mind gambling to double up early in any sort of tournament, especially online because it's so easy to start a new one if you go busto.
Actually courtie Geanooo put's in pretty heavy volume at the stars 6.50's.
But i understand where your coming from because i constantly see someone getting it all in early with hands like 55-10's / Arags/A10/KJ/KQ , crap like this , so i guess in conclusion taipan and mattiesmat probabally have the best way to decide which would be to sharkscope and push if he's a loser fold if he's a winner. I need to start having sharkscope up and ready when I'm playing.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-63115.htm

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Shep
Old 12-31-2007, 09:19 PM #17 (permalink)  
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This difference of the re-raise, is if your opponent does decide to shove over, you can still throw it away (assuming you come to the conclusion he has an overpair). Even thought your half stacked, at least you have the chance to battle back. Better to be short stacked than NO stacked!
And like Geanoooooo said, too many people are willing to gamble early to double up. I see many weak calls with suited Aces or Ace 10.
I play mostly on stars and see hands like JJ beat by Ace 9 all in preflop.
Here's the typical response from the losing JJ:
Well at least I went All IN with the best of it.
Their right, they did......... but walked away with NOTHING to show for it.
One very important thing I've learned from years of experience gambling (and not just on cards) is "Leave yourself outs!" Dont put all your eggs in one basket!
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DetroitHusling101
Old 12-31-2007, 09:49 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Tai explained in his post earlier why push/fold >>>>call>>>>>>re raise.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-63115.htm

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taipan168
Old 01-01-2008, 10:36 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
This difference of the re-raise, is if your opponent does decide to shove over, you can still throw it away (assuming you come to the conclusion he has an overpair). Even thought your half stacked, at least you have the chance to battle back. Better to be short stacked than NO stacked!
And how exactly would you be able to determine that opp has exactly QQ, KK or AA as opposed to 99, TT, AK or whatever other hand he might shove over your re-raise with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
And like Geanoooooo said, too many people are willing to gamble early to double up. I see many weak calls with suited Aces or Ace 10.
And the problem with getting it AI preflop with JJ against Ax suited or AT is...Bueller? Bueller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
I play mostly on stars and see hands like JJ beat by Ace 9 all in preflop.
Which will happen roughly 30% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
Here's the typical response from the losing JJ:
Well at least I went All IN with the best of it.
Their right, they did......... but walked away with NOTHING to show for it.
So what? Poker is a game where you have to weigh the pot odds against fold equity if you shove and, if called, the odds that your hand will be best at showdown. There is NOTHING wrong with getting it AI as a 70% favourite when your pot odds are better than even money, if I offered you this bet you would take it until I went broke, wouldn't you?

Let's modify OP's hand so that OP has AA. In this case CO flashes 22 and says, "I will call if you shove it". Wouldn't you break your mouse getting your chips in here? 17% of the time opp will suck out and crack your aces, meaning you walk away with NOTHING to show for it, but would you really act differently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
One very important thing I've learned from years of experience gambling (and not just on cards) is "Leave yourself outs!" Dont put all your eggs in one basket!
This is silly. I am happy to put all my eggs in the one basket if I believe that the equity my hand has (both fold equity and showdown equity) is better than the pot odds require. See the AA hand for an example.
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Geanooooo
Old 01-01-2008, 09:25 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I agree to sharkscope him then decide but readless, obv if hes decent JJ is behind villains 3 betting range.
Sure every now and again he will be a donkey and have like A9 or some other rag but too often were crushed or flipping.
Can we flat call here and get it on favourable flops/fold everything else? or is that terrible?
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