Inflection point gone wrong - $10 3:15am FO on Stars

Hey, you were ahead in the hand...

but he didn't have enough chips to make that call
he would have to have 28K chips to call in that spot even KNOWING your M because otherwise he's risking his chips without the possibility of someone folding and probably being behind
which is why it's good to play this way - even if everyone knows you're doing it it's not a good strategy for them to call unless they have the chips to back it up

yeah even if he assumes he is live I don't like it.

Jesus... It seems like so many people are living and dying by Harrington's advice. Fold that crap. I don't care if your M is 4.834782342. Hell, even if your Z was 3.567283, I'd still fold. The ONLY time I'd push was if my D was >11.4. Your D was no where near that though...

You have enough chips for the blinds to pass once more and to pick up a better hand to push with. You people need to stop using poker books as cook books on how to play poker. There are plenty of other things going on in this hand besides a number a certain formula gives you. You know what they are too, but Dan told you to push with any two so you did. Don't let someone else do the thinking for you at the poker table.

I agree with the folding this crap comment. I am a big HOH fan and I don't think the pushing w/ any two theory applies here. You do have the ability to wait for a better opportunity.

If your M was 4 or 5 then yes, your need for chips and the ability to be first in matter more then the cards you hold.

haven't studied the "inflection points" sections yet, but if he advocates the move you made at that point of the game , well that just shocks me.

But his call is a riot. Memo- don't steal his blind !

Originally Posted by trickleg

haven't studied the "inflection points" sections yet, but if he advocates the move you made at that point of the game , well that just shocks me.

But his call is a riot. Memo- don't steal his blind !

He doesn't advocate it in this situation.

Initial pot: $525
My stack: $2915

2915 / 525 = 5.55

Folds to me in late position, how can I not try to steal here unless my hand is like 92o?

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Jesus... It seems like so many people are living and dying by Harrington's advice. Fold that crap. I don't care if your M is 4.834782342. Hell, even if your Z was 3.567283, I'd still fold. The ONLY time I'd push was if my D was >11.4. Your D was no where near that though...

You have enough chips for the blinds to pass once more and to pick up a better hand to push with. You people need to stop using poker books as cook books on how to play poker. There are plenty of other things going on in this hand besides a number a certain formula gives you. You know what they are too, but Dan told you to push with any two so you did. Don't let someone else do the thinking for you at the poker table.

Excuse me, I know exactly what's going on in this hand. PlaysLKAGirl can't call unless they have premium, Smithers won't call without premium (been very passive), and smooooth can't call without premium. Except he called with 67o.

How do I not try to steal here knowing these facts?

In fact, I didn't make this post to know whether this push is correct. I know it's correct. I just want to know why the BB called for over 1/2 his stack with 67o.

If your M was 4 or 5 then yes, your need for chips and the ability to be first in matter more then the cards you hold.

2915 / 525 = 5.55

pwned

Post this is the bad beat section if you dont want criticism. Your m is 5.5 yes, but it doesnt mean you need to risk your entire stack. Really, your not even that deep in the tournament, so end game strateies with like 3 hours left is probably not the greatest idea. I believe here you are still in survival mode. Since player cant call without a premium, but instead calls with 97o, maybe your range selection techniques are the suck?

You guys can nitter natter about whether the play is +EV all the live long day, it's not why he posted. There is no doubt Harrington would advocate this play. He posted looking for insight as to why 67 called here, which none of us have because calling with 67 here is goofy.

Of bloody course it's goofy, but if there weren't any fish in MTTs they'd be a hell of a lot harder to win

In fact, I didn't make this post to know whether this push is correct. I know it's correct.

Your play was not correct simply because Dan Harrington says it is. If you're going to make a move then make it with a decent hand. You were no where near desperation mode at this point so there is no need to push crap.

There is no doubt Harrington would advocate this play

First of all this is debateable. Your Poker God Action Dan warns on many occasions that you should expect much looser play and questionable calls in online tournaments as oppossed to live ones filled with higher caliber players. Because of this I think you need a much stronger hand than K-junk to push with because you have to consider the idiot factor. Despite how you try to reason with yourself, I feel you made a poorly timed push.

Plus if you had read T.J. Cloutier's book "Championship No-Limit and Pot-Limit Hold'em" you would have known that there is no doubt that T.J. would NOT have advocated this play. Cloutier has won more NL tournaments than Harrington has probably even entered. So Cloutier's advice obviously is better than Dan's...

I've read the HoH series and I think they're great books, but once again, they should not be used as cook books. Read the information, learn from it and apply it when applicable. Use the advice as it fits into the flow of the game you are playing. Do not try to find reasons to cram it in.

I just want to know why the BB called for over 1/2 his stack with 67o.

There is no way anyone could tell you that besides your opponent. If that is the reason you posted then you are simply looking for sympathy and this thread really belongs in the bad beat section.

You could spend 10 hours a day, trying to figure out why he called with XX hand. Most of it is just STBY bad beat forum material. I honestly believe if people would spend more time analyzing their own play instead of analyzing others mistakes and dwelling on them, the general population would be better poker players. Its not human nature to look at ones own flaws, mostly because its easier to identify other peoples.

DaNutsInYoEye.

you should post more.

This post is exactly what I'm talking about with the "M" craze.

DaNuts - very good reply.

Jesus Christ man, you had almost 15xBB. I don't give a rat's ass what your "M" was. This was a RETARDED push. (Just so happened to be a retarded call as well). What hands at this stage of a tourney will call a 15xBB raise? Especially right after you just went all-in the previous hand and you are shortstacked? Hmm, too early for all the fish to be gone, so I'd say almost any hand. Your best shot is a 60/40 race here. Your chances of being called after showing you just pushed with TJ at this stage? - purty durn good. Ever think of trying to steal the blinds with just a 3-4xBB raise?? Especially when you have enough chips to do so?

{edited}

Thanks for attacking me, DaNutsInYoEye and chardrian. It really makes me a better player.

When I post, I'm looking for constructive criticism, not OMG THAT PUSH WAS RETARDED or YOU PLAY BY THE BOOK UR RETARDED.

Originally Posted by homerdash

Thanks to the few of you who made constructive comments.

DaNutsInYoEye, I wish you would take your pent-up frustration or whatever it is somewhere else. Your first reply automatically assumes I'm part of this "book player" group you seem to have weird issues with. And makes a stupid comment about D size. It's 10 feet long tyvm.

Then I explain my reasoning and you say that it's not correct because Dan Harrington says it is. That's right you stupid fuck, I just explained to you MY reasoning. But you're too busy getting angry at people you don't know on internet forums. Then you make some sort of stupid joke/analogy about Cloutier's book which adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Fact is, I've started stealing immediately when my M gets down to the 5ish range and my MTT results since I've started that line have improved considerably. However, I will have to rethink that if people know what I'm doing and can put me on any 2.

nothing wrong with stealing when your M is low, but you could have just raised 3bb preflop

One time I posted a question on this forum on how to play under certain conditions in a tournament. Soupie responded and his answer actually allowed me to reach a higher level of play, just by never forgetting that response. In paraphrase, it was:

"Stop looking for a formula and start thinking like a poker player"

I think that since you had just doubled up and showed a relatively weak hand, that you could have waited a while for a better opportunity. I like to push when low on chips when I have at least 2 cards that can work together to make a hand, or an A. But I would not be in a big hurry here after a double up.

And you do not need to push AI here either. A standard steal play usually gets the same result. As a matter of fact, lately I have been avoiding the AI pre-flop move almost entirely. Psychologically, I think the AI push provokes a call way more than a 3-4xBB raise. Its like running from a wild animal, the running away provokes a chase instinct in the animal. The AIPFR will sometimes provoke the "call this and knock him out" instinct that some players seem to have. Thats probably why he called here - you provoked it with the all in move. A 3-4xbb raise after you pushed last hand would make him stop and think about it at least.

Homerdash, I'm not trying to attack you. Sorry if you were offended, but I was trying to give you honest advice. Your post did seem to focus on "M" too much. What your M was... Did your opponent know your M was low...? Did he know that because your M was low that you'd be pushing any random hand?

All I was trying to say was that formulaic play is for people still trying to get a grasp on concepts. I have seen you play and you are much better than that. When good players make mistakes they shouldn't it bothers me.

If you want further critique than "come on man, that was a dumb push" then I'll give you some. I think you already know everything I'm about to say though. First, you still had enough chips to wait for a better spot. Second, you just recently pushed with a marginal hand that was seen at showdown. Any decent player is going to see that and give you less credit the next time you try it. The poor players will see that you don't mind gambling. Poor players like to gamble and your giving them more or a reason to mix it up with you. Third, you pushed with K,3. If you're going to push with rags then try to make sure you have two live cards. If someone has a decent hand to call you with, there is a good chance that they'd have a K as well. The only hand with a K in it that doesn't dominate you is K,2. If you're going to get a call from someone, a pocket pair is likely too. The only pocket pair that doesn't make you a big underdog is 2,2. Fourth, good players avoid being AI if they can help it. Even if they are a favorite going AI there is still the possibility of being outdrawn and being sent home. If you're going to put put yourself AI, either have the goods or at least give yourself a fighting chance. K,3 is too weak in my opinion. I understand that you were getting low on chips. You weren't in desperation mode yet though. That's a desperation push IMO and you shouldn't have made it. You were right in that you had to make a move soon, but you didn't have to make it then.

Thanks dnuts, no hard feelings man.

In hindsight:

-Should've just made a standard raise, dunno why I thought I had to push

-I was tired

-Opponent could've been tired also.

Sorry, sometimes I overlook obvious things and that's why I have a long ways to go in my development as a player.

Thanks everyone anyways!

There is a huge point here a lot of people missed.
Your opponent called you because you were all in.
Gamblers love to call all ins.
I think he may have called a steal raise here too, at which point you would be in bad shape.
How did you get so low on chips? That may be a good question to ask instead of why did this fish call me.
BTW, I am the LAggiest tourney player here outside of maybe Rippy, and I fold there.
I am MORE apt to raise with K3 if I have everyone left to act covered. i.e. making them decide about their tourney fate, not decide if they want to let me live to see another blind.

You should be more reliant on your reads than a formula. I read HOH2, great book, but if he's calling you with 67o then you should have a read on that and you should pay more attention to that read than if Harrington himself was standing over your shoulder with a calculator saying it was time to push.

Originally Posted by homerdash

{edited}

Thanks for attacking me, DaNutsInYoEye and chardrian. It really makes me a better player.

When I post, I'm looking for constructive criticism, not OMG THAT PUSH WAS RETARDED or YOU PLAY BY THE BOOK UR RETARDED.

I don't try to attack anyone (except myself). Sorry.

I know for a fact my big problem lately is getting over the ITM hump and making final tables - I have been failing because ME, MYSELF, and I have been making RETARDED plays. The one you made was reminescent of a play I had just recently made.

I know I have posted here sometimes hoping to get feedback telling me that what I did was fine and what the other guy did was RETARDED; but instead I get people telling me I was the bonehead. My first reaction is then to attack back and call that person (oftentimes gabe ) an idiot. But in retrospect what often happens in poker is that two players make a bonehead move and one of them has to win. Smooth's move was definitely more retarded than yours was. But hopefully you have now patched up your my M is 5 I HAVE to push play.

Originally Posted by homerdash

smooooth: calls 2690

meeks16 said, "6 7?"
*** TURN *** [7c 9h 5c] [9c]
*** RIVER *** [7c 9h 5c 9c] [6c]
meeks16 said, "well nh"

smooooth: shows [6h 7s] (two pair, Nines and Sevens)

Wtf?

If you made a 3BB raise and that guy reraised you all-in, would you call?