I know I'll be criticized, but...

**baudib** · 09-12-2005 07:16 AM

I know I probably should have played this whole hand differently. Obvious the river is worth at least a call for the ridiculously cheap price. What should I do here?

Let me have it:

$5 284 entrant MTT at pokerroom, down to final three tables.

View Previous | Next hand for this table.

Seat 1: missfroggy ($4,324 in chips)
Seat 2: xxrxndxvxs ($24,915 in chips)
Seat 3: wwkd ($12,241 in chips)
Seat 4: Kilt Lifter ($9,952 in chips)
Seat 5: JSSTCB ($3,880 in chips)
Seat 6: sheriffbeau ($17,845 in chips)
Seat 7: Alan17 ($10,392 in chips)
Seat 8: pittsburgh5 ($18,748 in chips)
Seat 9: baudib [7D,7H] ($16,844 in chips)
Seat 10: 2_ray ($4,537 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
missfroggy posts blind ($400), xxrxndxvxs posts blind ($800).

PRE-FLOP
wwkd folds, Kilt Lifter folds, JSSTCB calls $800, sheriffbeau folds, Alan17 folds, pittsburgh5 calls $800, baudib calls $800, 2_ray folds, missfroggy calls $400, xxrxndxvxs checks.

FLOP [board cards 10C,9D,8D ]
missfroggy checks, xxrxndxvxs checks, JSSTCB checks, pittsburgh5 checks, baudib checks.

TURN [board cards 10C,9D,8D,4C ]
missfroggy checks, xxrxndxvxs bets $1,600, JSSTCB calls $1,600, pittsburgh5 calls $1,600, baudib calls $1,600, missfroggy bets $3,200, xxrxndxvxs folds, JSSTCB calls $1,480 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 calls $1,600, baudib calls $1,600.

RIVER [board cards 10C,9D,8D,4C,6C ]
missfroggy bets $324 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 calls $324
baudib??????

baudib bets $12,844 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 folds.

SHOWDOWN
baudib shows [ 7D,7H ]
missfroggy shows [ 9S,10D ]
JSSTCB shows [ AC,8S ]
baudib wins $12,520, baudib wins $1,332, baudib wins $17,920.

results in white

SUMMARY
Dealer: 2_ray
Pot: $31,772
missfroggy, loses $4,324
xxrxndxvxs, loses $2,400
wwkd, loses $0
Kilt Lifter, loses $0
JSSTCB, loses $3,880
sheriffbeau, loses $0
Alan17, loses $0
pittsburgh5, loses $4,324
baudib, bets $16,844, collects $31,772, net $14,928
2_ray, loses $0

**baudib** · 09-12-2005 07:25 AM

I thought about pushing preflop but I had seen pittsburgh raising A9 and slow-playing KK. Once it checked to me on the flop i thought about pushing again but I figured someone at least had a J if not QJ or two pair.

**TanO** · 09-12-2005 09:10 AM

On the river - Just call. Dont really see the point of a raise or especially the allin here. Maybe its worth sticking a small raise out there but then what if the bigger stack goes over the top. With such a strong bet you will only be called by the flush or possibly a higher straight, you dont need the chips badly or anything. Just call and know you are most likely to take it down.

Pushing the flop is a bad idea. A 2/3rds pot size bet would probably be better but the check is reasonable, anyone with an 8,9 or 10 may easily not have bet just because its coordinated and JQ could take the risk of giving a free card in order to extract more chips

**arkana** · 09-12-2005 09:15 AM

Fold the turn.

**drawman** · 09-12-2005 09:43 AM

I would certainly bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot on the flop. Nobody has shown strength, you're last to act so there's a chance you could take it down there.
There have been many situations in the past where I've been last to act and have betted at an open-ended straight draw and took it down there, where as checking the flop usually gives someone a card which gives them the best hand.

Anyone agree with this or am I wrong?

**drawman** · 09-12-2005 11:52 AM

From reading my last post I'd also like to add that If the "UP SIDE" of the straight is made then it's time to tread VERY carefully!

**gabe** · 09-12-2005 12:07 PM

fold the turn. you only have 2 clean outs, the 6h and the 6s.

**drmcboy** · 09-12-2005 12:09 PM

Bet the flop, fold turn, value bet river. Fun hand!

**baudib** · 09-12-2005 06:26 PM

My thinking was that at this point Pittsburgh had nothing. But obviously the AI was stupid. I figure if someone beats my straight
with a backdoor flush I'm going to pay it. I probably should have just min-raised.

Can't believe Miss Froggy didn't bet top two pair on a board like that.

**a500lbgorilla** · 09-12-2005 06:37 PM

Push preflop (thinking about it, I'm not sure. With fewer than 15 bets I probably push against these limpers) Callings ok with 20 bets, I suppose.

Fold the turn.

Call the river.

-'rilla

**baudib** · 09-12-2005 07:30 PM

Well I did have something of a read on the situation:

I put xxrx on a complete bluff, which looks likely. I had seen JSSTCB overplay ace rags constantly -- I didn't believe the 4c on the turn help put anyone ahead of me, and I put him on no better than A4 (as it turns out, he was ahead of me before the river), figuring him to push AJ preflop, push A10 on the flop.

Again, very weird that Froggy is slow-playing, totally out of character for her even with the draws on the board. Her check-raise sends off warning bells but I am getting about 10-1 to call here.

**zenbitz** · 09-12-2005 08:14 PM

You can afford to limp pre-flop here... but just barely. JSSTCB might call if you push with his A-rag since he already limped and is pretty short.

I would bet the flop. That turn line is just confused - but it wouldn't be if you had bet, because Froggy would have gotten the check-raise she was looking for.

I might fold the turn out of sheer confusion given that I have the idiot end of a straight draw+bottom pair, and 2 flush draws are out. J/6c makes you want to vomit, while J/6d only makes you fold slightly nauseous.

**baudib** · 09-12-2005 09:34 PM

J would have been a terrifying card and if the bigger stacks had bet it I would probably fold.

**Staple Gun** · 09-13-2005 12:31 AM

DONT PUSH THE RIVER

there is simply no benefit unless it is a very small value raise. i dont see why you would push there when he will no call with anything except a better hand (QJ seems most likely if he calls)

09-12-2005 07:16 AM #1
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	I know I'll be criticized, but... I know I probably should have played this whole hand differently. Obvious the river is worth at least a call for the ridiculously cheap price. What should I do here? Let me have it: $5 284 entrant MTT at pokerroom, down to final three tables. View Previous \| Next hand for this table. Seat 1: missfroggy ($4,324 in chips) Seat 2: xxrxndxvxs ($24,915 in chips) Seat 3: wwkd ($12,241 in chips) Seat 4: Kilt Lifter ($9,952 in chips) Seat 5: JSSTCB ($3,880 in chips) Seat 6: sheriffbeau ($17,845 in chips) Seat 7: Alan17 ($10,392 in chips) Seat 8: pittsburgh5 ($18,748 in chips) Seat 9: baudib [7D,7H] ($16,844 in chips) Seat 10: 2_ray ($4,537 in chips) ANTES/BLINDS missfroggy posts blind ($400), xxrxndxvxs posts blind ($800). PRE-FLOP wwkd folds, Kilt Lifter folds, JSSTCB calls $800, sheriffbeau folds, Alan17 folds, pittsburgh5 calls $800, baudib calls $800, 2_ray folds, missfroggy calls $400, xxrxndxvxs checks. FLOP [board cards 10C,9D,8D ] missfroggy checks, xxrxndxvxs checks, JSSTCB checks, pittsburgh5 checks, baudib checks. TURN [board cards 10C,9D,8D,4C ] missfroggy checks, xxrxndxvxs bets $1,600, JSSTCB calls $1,600, pittsburgh5 calls $1,600, baudib calls $1,600, missfroggy bets $3,200, xxrxndxvxs folds, JSSTCB calls $1,480 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 calls $1,600, baudib calls $1,600. RIVER [board cards 10C,9D,8D,4C,6C ] missfroggy bets $324 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 calls $324 baudib?????? baudib bets $12,844 and is all-in, pittsburgh5 folds. SHOWDOWN baudib shows [ 7D,7H ] missfroggy shows [ 9S,10D ] JSSTCB shows [ AC,8S ] baudib wins $12,520, baudib wins $1,332, baudib wins $17,920. results in white SUMMARY Dealer: 2_ray Pot: $31,772 missfroggy, loses $4,324 xxrxndxvxs, loses $2,400 wwkd, loses $0 Kilt Lifter, loses $0 JSSTCB, loses $3,880 sheriffbeau, loses $0 Alan17, loses $0 pittsburgh5, loses $4,324 baudib, bets $16,844, collects $31,772, net $14,928 2_ray, loses $0

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09-12-2005 07:25 AM #2
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	I thought about pushing preflop but I had seen pittsburgh raising A9 and slow-playing KK. Once it checked to me on the flop i thought about pushing again but I figured someone at least had a J if not QJ or two pair.
	Playing big pots at small stakes.
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09-12-2005 09:10 AM #3
TanO View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2005 Posts 304 Location UK	On the river - Just call. Dont really see the point of a raise or especially the allin here. Maybe its worth sticking a small raise out there but then what if the bigger stack goes over the top. With such a strong bet you will only be called by the flush or possibly a higher straight, you dont need the chips badly or anything. Just call and know you are most likely to take it down. Pushing the flop is a bad idea. A 2/3rds pot size bet would probably be better but the check is reasonable, anyone with an 8,9 or 10 may easily not have bet just because its coordinated and JQ could take the risk of giving a free card in order to extract more chips
	75% of online poker players believe they are better than 75% of the other online poker players My piece of cyberspace real estate : http://ornatepush.blogspot.com
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09-12-2005 09:15 AM #4
arkana View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2005 Posts 1,393	Fold the turn.

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09-12-2005 09:43 AM #5
drawman View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 113 Location Trapping the Maniacs	I would certainly bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot on the flop. Nobody has shown strength, you're last to act so there's a chance you could take it down there. There have been many situations in the past where I've been last to act and have betted at an open-ended straight draw and took it down there, where as checking the flop usually gives someone a card which gives them the best hand. Anyone agree with this or am I wrong?

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09-12-2005 11:52 AM #6
drawman View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 113 Location Trapping the Maniacs	From reading my last post I'd also like to add that If the "UP SIDE" of the straight is made then it's time to tread VERY carefully!

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09-12-2005 12:07 PM #7
gabe View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2004 Posts 12,344 Location trying to live	fold the turn. you only have 2 clean outs, the 6h and the 6s.

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09-12-2005 12:09 PM #8
drmcboy View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message DrButtInski Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 10,669	Bet the flop, fold turn, value bet river. Fun hand!

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09-12-2005 06:26 PM #9
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	My thinking was that at this point Pittsburgh had nothing. But obviously the AI was stupid. I figure if someone beats my straight with a backdoor flush I'm going to pay it. I probably should have just min-raised. Can't believe Miss Froggy didn't bet top two pair on a board like that.
	Playing big pots at small stakes.
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09-12-2005 06:37 PM #10
a500lbgorilla View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD Join Date Sep 2004 Posts 23,228 Location This room is a good place to be	Push preflop (thinking about it, I'm not sure. With fewer than 15 bets I probably push against these limpers) Callings ok with 20 bets, I suppose. Fold the turn. Call the river. -'rilla

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09-12-2005 07:30 PM #11
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	Well I did have something of a read on the situation: I put xxrx on a complete bluff, which looks likely. I had seen JSSTCB overplay ace rags constantly -- I didn't believe the 4c on the turn help put anyone ahead of me, and I put him on no better than A4 (as it turns out, he was ahead of me before the river), figuring him to push AJ preflop, push A10 on the flop. Again, very weird that Froggy is slow-playing, totally out of character for her even with the draws on the board. Her check-raise sends off warning bells but I am getting about 10-1 to call here.

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09-12-2005 08:14 PM #12
zenbitz View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2004 Posts 2,859	You can afford to limp pre-flop here... but just barely. JSSTCB might call if you push with his A-rag since he already limped and is pretty short. I would bet the flop. That turn line is just confused - but it wouldn't be if you had bet, because Froggy would have gotten the check-raise she was looking for. I might fold the turn out of sheer confusion given that I have the idiot end of a straight draw+bottom pair, and 2 flush draws are out. J/6c makes you want to vomit, while J/6d only makes you fold slightly nauseous.

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09-12-2005 09:34 PM #13
baudib View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2005 Posts 3,772	J would have been a terrifying card and if the bigger stacks had bet it I would probably fold.
	Playing big pots at small stakes.
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09-13-2005 12:31 AM #14
Staple Gun View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 796 Location Gamblers Anonymous	DONT PUSH THE RIVER there is simply no benefit unless it is a very small value raise. i dont see why you would push there when he will no call with anything except a better hand (QJ seems most likely if he calls)
	My Poker Story
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