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| ShadySully |
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Hi, how's everyone doing?! First post here. Great forum! I'm pretty new to No Limit Holdem. Been playing since February in home games with my buddies. We play tournament style, no buyins with usually 6-10 people. We have a $10 buy in initially and depending on the # of people we pay out 1st, 2nd, 3rd. In the beginning I was real bad. However over the last 26 games (I've been keeping track) I've managed to end up in the money a whopping 16 times. My record is actually: 1st Place: 3 times 2nd Place: 10 times 3rd. Place 3 times So you can see I've made it heads up almost half of those games! Only problem is I've only won 3. My heads up play sucks but seems to be getting better lately. Now I've heard that tournament style with rapidly increasing blinds is largely affected by "luck". So either I've been very lucky or I'm actually doing something right. Wooohoooo. What's your take on this? I've read Riptyde's (hope that's right) post on heads up play and oddly enough that is the style I've been playing during the games that I've actually won. I've learned that you have to pretty much play anything and play it strong. Its been working wonders and I've learned a ton about the game this way. Here's a blurb from my last tournament. I was wondering if anyone had any comments. I was heads up with a guy I've never played before. I knew that he's a very experienced player though. We had about equal stack size when going heads up. Over 20-30 hands there were some massive changes in stack size. I can remember 4 times specifically where I just won a big pot and had him dominated in chips. Like 4-1 or more. The next hand I would be dealt either AK, AQ, AJ, A10. No shyt. This happened four times. I'd win a huge pot have him on the ropes and then get dealt an Ace with great/good kicker. I figured heads up these are great hands and I would try and bully him right out of the game by raising, reraising, and then going all in preflop. He knew he was on the ropes too chipwise so I wasn't even thinking he'd have a hand. I figured he was just going all in with me to put himself out of his misery. Turns out each time I got him to go all in with these hands he'd turn over a pocket pair. 55's, 99's, 1010's, and the time I had A10 he had AJ. He beat me everytime. I just couldn't hit a card. I'm pretty sure a hand like AK and AQ are about even odds with low pocket pairs. Maybe a slight dog. Am I wrong here? Should I have been more patient with a commanding chip lead? Or are these normally good spots to put your money all in heads up (when you have the guy dominated chip wise)? Turns out he beat me in the end. I'm not too worried about the loss because I felt there were at least 4 or 5 hands that were coin flip decisions and he just got lucky and won everytime. What do you guys think? |
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Don't eat the Dessicant
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| Humphrind |
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Welcome to FTR. Good to see new meat... I mean, people. Good job on your success in your home games. I know it is frusterating to place 2nd, but making it that far is a success in itself. Quote:
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway. Whatever it is... I'm against it.
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| Yeah |
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I think the answer depends. If you think you this guy can eat you up post-flop, move in when you think you have the best of it, if not see some flops to take him out. Patience is a must in poker. Remember though, all your hands are drawing hands pre-flop - and I personally don't like to risk all my chips heads up without seeing the flop (unless I have a high pocket pair and they bet into me). I will risk them, but I don't like to. It sounded as if you would have been able to see the flop. Why not take a look at it. I would have thought getting burnt twice, would make you realize that if he keeps calling your raises preflop - he has a pocket pair |
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| fishstick |
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| Yeah |
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Oh yeah, I would like to know where I said I don't play those hands when I am raised. Or perhaps I said I don't raise with those hands, or mabey I said them both, but I can't find it. Can you? |
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| Humphrind |
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Fishy, I think this is the point that Yeah was trying to make. He doesn't want to push too hard unless he has a good hand. He's going to hit hard pre-flop, but he wants to save some ammo for post-flop. Yeah, Fishy is telling you not to be timid. If you play too weak and still want to find the monsters to help you through, you will be down in chips very quickly. If you don't like to risk your chips pre-flop, that is timid and it will show through in your game. AQ is not a drawing hand when you consider how many heads up hands have been won by a high cards and kickers. This doesn't mean you should go all-in with it every time, but be aggressive, don't back down just because he might catch something. There, now you two play nice. There is 1 strategy that I fail with head-to-head. That is knowing when to lay down. It is very important. I hope I can talk Rippy into chiming in here and help out with this. I'll lay a situation out. I have   Flop comes    I caught a piece, but what signs should I look for if this guy has paired his Ks? This is usually where I say to myself, "He can't outbluff me!" and I end up with 2nd place. |
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway. Whatever it is... I'm against it.
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| johnnyawe |
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| Watch out for the wheel straight when it gets down to head-to-head. | |||||||||
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| Humphrind |
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway. Whatever it is... I'm against it.
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| Yeah |
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Thanks for tying both our posts together. I see his points, I just don't think that it could relate to my post. My feeling is, why risk AQ allin when (against a decent player) you only going to get a call by a hand that you are a dog to? I just don't see it being a good move in the long run. Anyways, Saying this outloud doesn't sound that good "Middle pair, queen kicker" when you are about to push all in. The problem with me is that I am not afraid to lay down a winning hand, and sometimes I think I give people too much credit. In that scenerio I think it needs a tad more detail, BUT with the info you gave me, if he pushed I would fold. Why risk all your chips on that hand. You don't think you will see a hand better than mid. pair, Q kicker during the rest of the heads up. I do. I don't see many heads up games won by middle pair, okay kicker...do you? (unless the blinds are crazy, then it's basically luck) Especially if they aren't all in preflop. Anyways, things to consider to get a better answer... 1. Stack sizes 2. Did he preflop bet? Did you? 3. Did you bet/raise/reraise on the flop and what did he do |
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| fishstick |
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 my only approach, but i'd say this is at least half the battle.Quote:
as soon as i get even a small chip advantage, i start pushing on the blinds hard, without too much regard to my hand. of course, you have to back down if they push back. Quote:
i was heads-up with a nice young lady last night (that sounds way better than it is  ) who kept complimenting me on my aggressive play, while she folded her stack away.Quote:
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the two just seem to go together. Quote:
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| fishstick |
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let's assume we're talking an SNG on party poker, it's heads up, and blinds are at 300/600, and i'll give the fishstick view: - we each have 4000 chips, AQ IS NOT a preflop all-in (i don't have the power) - i have 2000 or less and he has 6000, AQ IS a preflop all-in (play on his fear of me doubling up) - i have 6000 or more and has 2000 or less, AQ IS a preflop all-in (i have the power) going back to "getting a call from a decent player with a hand that you're a dog to" - let's say you go all-in with AQ, an average (i'm not necessarily saying decent) party poker player will probably call with: any two face cards, especially if they're suited, ace anything, king anything, small pocket pairs. so you may not be the dog that you think. this is the "luck" portion of heads-up play - anytime you decide to push, they could be holding AA. 
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| michael1123 |
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Then again, I raise every hand that's playable heads up, the same amount (per blind level). So I make someone that's seen me raise preflop with Q8 suited more likely to call or raise with a hand that AQ is a big favorite against. If I got raised, I'd have no problem shoving in preflop. Or maybe I'd see a flop, depending on the stack sizes mostly. But I'm likely to bluff at the flop if I miss it anyway, so its not really that different to shove in preflop. Anyway, I'd relate the power of AQ heads up to the power of QQ in a ten player game. Its beatable, but its a great hand, and most likely is better than whatever they have. |
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| Yeah |
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AQ is an effective allin play in an SnG where the blinds are 4 to 6 times the size of your stack. I pretty much agree with everything you say in your post. I was comparing an allin bet of AQ when the blinds represent such a small portion of you stack. Such as a large multi tourney. Basic Example: You have 350,000 and he has 350,000, the blinds are at 10k 20k. You are delt AQ and you push all in. I don't think that is a good play. Now, if you were in his shoes, what would you call an allin bet with? AJ? AQ? In my mind, I'll call an all in bet with AA, KK, and QQ. Sorry for the confusion, but in your situations you presented AQ is an allin play in my mind too. 
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| michael1123 |
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Ah yeah, I agree as well then. I'm thinking more of sit and go heads up play, where if the blinds are a much larger portion of your stack by the time its heads up, if its been a rather conservative table. If both stacks have 300k and the BB is only 20k, I don't think any hand deserves an all in raise, unless there's been tons of reraises back and forth. If you have a monster, you don't want to scare him out that easily, and if you have rags, that's way too much to bluff. So, in relation to the first posters post, I guess it depends on how fast the blinds go up in her home game. Just based on how he/she was describing the game, I assumed the blinds were pretty high for them, since it sounded like they were all-in on most hands. |
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| michael1123 |
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Late in a multiplayer tourney, there's no other choice. But I disagree with you about playing complete rags as far as heads up tournies go, when the blinds are still small. The blinds start of so ridiculously small, that I toss the complete rags (i.e. non-suited, non-connected, no high card, crap). But I completely agree about keeping your preflop bet the same, and still betting on rather shitty hands (i.e. K8 offsuit, A2 off suit, etc.). To start with the big blinds are 5 to 10 chips, depending on the site, and I start betting 50 every hand I play preflop, and usually at the flop too, and possibly more. It really loosens them up to my betting, and then they don't see my better hands coming. But there's nothing wrong with folding early on when you have utter shit like 72 off. I still don't lose the dominance edge, as in my heads up games it seems like I'm the only person that bets preflop, and I dominate post-flop betting as well. The thing is this way, I get to choose which hands have good pots by betting (and they seem to get into patterns of calling every bet preflop), and which hands don't by folding / checking my really bad hands, and giving them my 2.5 chip small blind. No reason to choose the 72 off hand to have the better pot size. |
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| AvatarKava |
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I've found that most opponents in the heads-up games are ridiculously impatient. If you fold continuously you can usually frustrate them into making a bad call when you finally do hit the nuts. Edit: By this I'm referring to heads-up tournaments specifically, where the blinds start out ridiculously small. Check out some of Fnord's hand histories - you'll see how badly these guys want to hit it big, fast
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| Yeah |
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| In lower buy-in amounts I tend to agree with your post avatar. | |||||||||
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| ShadySully |
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I think something was kind of missed though from my original post. That is the stack sizes. Basically I was trying to bully this guy with my large stack. Like I originally said when I made these all-in bets I had a 4-1 chip lead on this guy or better. There were probably two times were I had him 6-1 or even 8-1 in chips. So losing the hand wasn't going to really affect me too much. It just opened a window for him to get back in. We'd battle back and forth some more and I'd have him on the ropes again. Then I'd all-in him again with my A good kicker. Chances are he's got nothing and the blinds are pretty much going to take him out next hand anyway. Going all-in with AQ preflop heads up isn't really a good play in my opinion either, but at this stage of the game where the stack sizes are so different I figured he was calling to just be put out of his misery. I did it to him four times! If I would've hit ONE card on any of those hands he would've been beat. Patience would've probably won the game though. This game can drive a guy nuts.
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Don't eat the Dessicant
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| AvatarKava |
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Absolutely, I meant the smaller limits - as with any online poker game, the quality of opponent USUALLY increases with the limits. In heads-up with small buyins, people seem to always want a quick "fix" and take down their opponent in the first 10 hands. |
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