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How not to play KK ($12)

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Nakamura

11-20-2009, 08:20 AM Post subject: How not to play KK ($12)

#1 (permalink)

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Nakamura is an unknown quantity at this point

Opponent is a little big fish at 45/5/4.5 over 47 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 12 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1470)
UTG+1 (t1470)
MP1 (t1455)
MP2 (t1425)
MP3 (t1450)
Hero (CO) (t1440)
Button (t1500)
SB (t1400)
BB (t1890)

Hero's M: 24.00

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, K

2 folds, MP1 calls t40, 2 folds, Hero bets t160, 1 fold, SB calls t140, 2 folds

Flop: (t400) A

, 5

, 9

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t400) 3

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t240, SB calls t240

River: (t880) 5

(2 players)
SB bets t1000 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: t880

PF is fine and checking the flop is good. However, after the villain checks again on the turn, you should resist the temptation to bet (Hero bet because Hero is a multi-tabling dumbass). For one, if you really had an A, you would have bet on the flop since there is a FD and you would want to cut down the odds for an opponent on a draw. Additionally, all a bet is accomplishing here is giving your opponent the opportunity to play an A or a made hand correctly. While it's true he may have 66 - JJ and trying to outplay you, the chances are he is only calling here with Ax or playing tricky with a set.

The correct play is to use your position smartly and check the turn, call a smallish 1/2 pot bet or less on the river. This gives a loose player the opportunity try and take the pot away from you with the 66 - JJ and KQ's etc. that form part of his range. Go pwn those donks now!

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taipan168

11-20-2009, 09:11 AM Post subject: Re: How not to play KK ($12)

#2 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nakamura

The correct play is to use your position smartly and check the turn, call a smallish 1/2 pot bet or less on the river. This gives a loose a loose player the opportunity try and take the pot away from you with the 66 - JJ and KQ's etc. that form part of his range. Go pwn those donks now!

^^^ This.

losttrem

11-20-2009, 04:16 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 180

I dont know. I dont really hate the bet on the turn after villain checked twice. By this time there are two flush draws on the board and he should have felt the need to protect his hand at some point if he had an ace. A check behind on the turn is fine too though. I mix up both plays. A bet there on the turn allows you to get vlue from smaller pocken pairs or a nine. I could go either way here. That's kind of read dependent. I'd be itching to hero-call the river because two flush draws just busted. But a fold is def the right play here.

Alpine021

11-20-2009, 04:47 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2009

Posts: 168

Not sure about the flop check. I think checking the flop has one of 2 reasons behind it..

a) You don't like the ace and will try and take it on the turn if checked to.

b) You do like the ace (or don't mind it as it's very representable) and want to induce a bluff on the turn.

I would have bet the flop as you were the PF raiser and could quite easily have a good ace. A lot of loose players that play a huge amount of hands without an ace in namely PPs and broadway cards will have the "damn ace" mentality and give up. They are not higher level thinkers that will try and outplay you on later streets OOP.

And by checking the flop is seems like you've almost given up on the hand already.

As played you obviously have to bet the turn.

Overall I know C-betting isn't as "respected" as it used to be as a lot of players started C betting every flop and even idiots picked up on it but it's still got a lot of weight.

If I've got JJ on a Q high flop I'll C bet most of the time similarly as here with KK and an ace on the flop. In my experience unless against a solid player it takes the pot right there a lot more of the time than it doesn't.

taipan168

11-21-2009, 01:21 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

I would have bet the flop as you were the PF raiser and could quite easily have a good ace. A lot of loose players that play a huge amount of hands without an ace in namely PPs and broadway cards will have the "damn ace" mentality and give up. They are not higher level thinkers that will try and outplay you on later streets OOP.

And by checking the flop is seems like you've almost given up on the hand already.

This is one of those classic spots that actually took me a long time to get my head around, however betting the flop is incorrect here. The reason is that if you bet, it is mostly only hands that beat you will call or raise whilst most hands that you beat will fold. The exception of course is flush draws but they are only a relatively small part of opp's range, so I'm prepared to trade off the risk of giving a free card against not putting my money in bad.

There are a few good threads in the FAQs/tactics guide on this:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...op-t65536.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ng-t78991.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

If I've got JJ on a Q high flop I'll C bet most of the time similarly as here with KK and an ace on the flop. In my experience unless against a solid player it takes the pot right there a lot more of the time than it doesn't.

JJ on a Q high flop is a different situation because there are more hands that you beat that may call a bet (overcards, lower pairs etc) than KK on an A high flop (because by definition there are no overcards and opp will be worried that you have Ax if you bet).

Alpine021

11-21-2009, 02:03 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 168

OK not read the articles just yet as it's late but as a quick response I don't think I agree. I understand the "way ahead vs way behind" principle but think here hands I beat that fold Im happy by taking the pot and hands that beat me that will call or raise then I know where I am with KK on an ace high flop.

The reason I argue ur point is that you say you'd risk giving ur opp a free card but to hit what? a K? I might be missing ur point I'm not sure but I'm assuming ur not set mining? Any time I have KK and an ace flops taking the pot is my main priority and the sooner the better before I get in trouble. The only reason I can think of giving a free card is pot control but I'd rather try and win it as it's not going to get easier on later streets?

taipan168

11-21-2009, 09:17 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

This whole concept of "betting to see where you're at" is flawed. There are three reasons to bet:
a) Value - because you believe you're ahead
b) Bluff - because you believe you can make opp fold a better hand than yours
c) Protect - because you have a hand that you believe is ahead but is vulnerable to draws.

Betting to "see where you're at" isn't one of the categories.

Also, why would you be happy to fold out a hand that you beat? By checking behind you get one street closer to showdown (and your hand has some showdown value so unless you spike a K, the cheaper you can show down your hand the better).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

The reason I argue ur point is that you say you'd risk giving ur opp a free card but to hit what? a K? I might be missing ur point I'm not sure but I'm assuming ur not set mining?

No I don't need to hit another K, but I don't intend to fold if opp bets unless he shoves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

Any time I have KK and an ace flops taking the pot is my main priority and the sooner the better before I get in trouble.

But why do you want to "take the pot down straight away"? If opp has an ace he will almost never fold, so again, all you're doing is folding out hands that beat you that might try to bluff on later streets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

The only reason I can think of giving a free card is pot control but I'd rather try and win it as it's not going to get easier on later streets?

No, the main reason to check behind is to get one street closer to showdown without putting any more chips in the pot.

It took me a long time to get my head around this concept, so please keep on posting if you don't get my reasoning.

Alpine021

11-21-2009, 10:24 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: 168

OK it was late last night and I can see your reasoning. Like you said - not an easy one.

So what sort of amounts are you prepared to check call? I know a player I play with in the casino that if his bet gets called on one street he just bets much bigger on the next.

Easy to play when u have it but if u have some sort of draw he's a nightmare to play. A good player might be betting bigger to not give me odds if he puts me on a draw but players like this you almost want to call as their bets are not representing their hand.

I don't particularly believe in betting to see where you are at but in the above example with some players you can use timing on the internet so you bet and get snap called you know they have the ace.

Also out of interest I agree with the 3 categories but I had a hand today where I was BB with 89 and the flop was 2 4 8. I bet out but it wasn't for any of them reasons. More a case of I was going to re-evaluate on the turn but he came over the top and I had to fold.

Do you just check in this situation?

taipan168

11-21-2009, 11:59 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

So what sort of amounts are you prepared to check call?

Tough one, but I'd call half pot bets on the turn and river I think. If opp shoves at any point (as he did in OP's hand) I let it go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine021

Also out of interest I agree with the 3 categories but I had a hand today where I was BB with 89 and the flop was 2 4 8. I bet out but it wasn't for any of them reasons. More a case of I was going to re-evaluate on the turn but he came over the top and I had to fold.

I call that a value bet because you believed you have the best hand at that point; once opp raises you can surmise that you don't and can let it go.

baudib

11-21-2009, 09:24 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I think this was played fine tbh. Flop check is super standard, I'm torn between checking and betting on the turn and betting as you did. there are now 2 flush draws on the board so you are protecting your hand and worse hands will call. Without a sick read, folding river is obviously only play.

Playing big pots at small stakes.

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