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Getting down to the end
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heatman
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05-27-2004, 11:54 AM
Post subject: Getting down to the end
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 312
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Ok, tourney pro's, I need some help. The past couple of tournaments that I've played in I've done pretty well in building and maintaining a competitive stack, but then lose it in the end on what I later think are stupid plays.
In the FTR showdown, I call SCGolfer's all-in raise with A8o. There were only three of us let and the hand was heads up , so I'm thinking the A is good if it pairs, but in ring games I wouldn't touch A8o, especially after an all-in raise. First question, loose call or just the way it is when you get down to the end?
Yesterday I played in a B&M NL tourney, 13 of 78 players left 10th gets paid. I raise 2XBB with QJs. BB goes all-in. I call and he turns over AA. I'm still in, but crippled. About ten hands later I raise with A5s, then call BB all-in. He beats me with AQo, and I drive home kicking myself.
Second question, do you call all-in with either of those hands? My thinking is that you can probably bet all-in with those hands, but probably shouldn't call all-in. I also wonder if either hand is very playable on the bubble. Is it a better play to just call, and then fold to a raise?
Final question, how big of a stack is enough to wait it out when you're getting down to the end? In the above cases, I can tell you that I was feeling the pressure of the increasing blinds and looking for any semi-playable hand. As I was cussing myself out on the drive home last night, I was realizing that in both tournaments I had the chips to see at least 4 more rounds if I just post and fold. I need a thumbrule or something so that I can stop worrying about being short stacked by the blinds and just keep playing solid poker.
Any other pointers?
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Toasty
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05-27-2004, 02:18 PM
Post subject: Re: Getting down to the end
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#2 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
Ok, tourney pro's, I need some help. The past couple of tournaments that I've played in I've done pretty well in building and maintaining a competitive stack, but then lose it in the end on what I later think are stupid plays.
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Well, I'm no pro, but i'll try to offer some helpful advice.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
In the FTR showdown, I call SCGolfer's all-in raise with A8o. There were only three of us let and the hand was heads up , so I'm thinking the A is good if it pairs, but in ring games I wouldn't touch A8o, especially after an all-in raise. First question, loose call or just the way it is when you get down to the end?
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I'd say this is a very loose call, even against 9T, you are in a race with only a slight edge. Considering that his holdings are going to be higher as he moved all in, if he has A9+ you are dominated. Any PP 88+ dominate you and 22-77 haved the edge on you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
Yesterday I played in a B&M NL tourney, 13 of 78 players left 10th gets paid. I raise 2XBB with QJs. BB goes all-in. I call and he turns over AA. I'm still in, but crippled. About ten hands later I raise with A5s, then call BB all-in. He beats me with AQo, and I drive home kicking myself.
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QJs this hand might be worth a call, (cheap flop) or a steal attempt but is no hand to be calling an all in with. Check above for the usual suspects on all ins (Unless someone has a read of you stealing pots, then they might make a move on you with less).
A5s, again is worth stealing the blinds with (make sure you are in late position or its short handed), but not calling an all in, you are more likely to run into a dominating hand, as you did.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
Second question, do you call all-in with either of those hands? My thinking is that you can probably bet all-in with those hands, but probably shouldn't call all-in. I also wonder if either hand is very playable on the bubble. Is it a better play to just call, and then fold to a raise?
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Once on the Bubble, there is almost never a time to call (call all ins with Big cards, big pairs, you can call with weaker hands with SSs, as they are going to go all in with weaker hands), if you are going to play raise, and give yourself an extra chance to win to a fold out. Obviously if 2 people call and you are in the BB check. If you are dealt Axos/s and one to two people call, its either fold or raise time. You are going to have to hit the flop big to play it with confidence.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
Final question, how big of a stack is enough to wait it out when you're getting down to the end? In the above cases, I can tell you that I was feeling the pressure of the increasing blinds and looking for any semi-playable hand. As I was cussing myself out on the drive home last night, I was realizing that in both tournaments I had the chips to see at least 4 more rounds if I just post and fold. I need a thumbrule or something so that I can stop worrying about being short stacked by the blinds and just keep playing solid poker.
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Unless you have over half the chips, you can never really just sit out or you can find yourself decreasing your lead with every orbit. There are two ways to play, aggressivley, or passive. Passive, you are trying to use your lead to creep into the money, which will work most of the time. Or you can be aggressive and push people around with your stack. I play both depending on the table type. I'll always try to win the blinds once an orbit to keep my lead.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by heatman
Any other pointers?
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Yeah, don't min raise! It's a cardinal sin, raise 3BBs or just call. Min raising doesn't scare anyone with good cards away, at later stages when the blinds are big drop down to 2.5BBs sometimes i'll do less i.e. 300/600 I'll raise to 700. This way the BB has to call 400, rather than another 300 he has already bet, it increases the fold %.
Hope these pointers help, these are from my own game and may not suit your style of play. I'm sure these will be refuted by other players, I'm not saying these are the best ways to play, but they are working well for me.
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crazyeddie
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: VA
Posts: 97
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What's a good rule of thumb for when your small stack has no all-in power?
What i mean is, there is a definite point where the small stack has some advantage making the repeated all-in play. After his chips dip below a certain amount, though, it becomes correct for any larger stack to call.
Would you say 5-6xBB is the smallest your stack can be before it loses "all-in" power?
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Sorry Eddie, I couldn't really say, its too situational. I usually prefer to run the risk of being blinded to death and wait for a good hand then push with trash.
It can be an advantage as you can triple up on your final BB, a few times as well someone has bounced out the tourney before i've had to post my final Blind 
A rule i do follow though that if a raise is over 40% of my stack I push, if short stacked. If I have a big stack I'll up this to 50%, but if i'm raiseing 50%, I'm pushing on the flop no matter what.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Toasty
Sorry Eddie, I couldn't really say, its too situational. I usually prefer to run the risk of being blinded to death and wait for a good hand then push with trash.
It can be an advantage as you can triple up on your final BB, a few times as well someone has bounced out the tourney before i've had to post my final Blind |
Yeah, this is what I did at the FTR showdown. I was the short stack from like the 3rd hand on, and I just kept folding unless I had premium cards or I was pretty sure someone was trying to blind steal, in which case I reraised if I had any high cards. I got a little bit of luck and was able to stay just barely afloat while other people dropped out all around me, and then finally I was able to triple my stack with KK which brought me back in it.
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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hehe, I read the tourney post, you went from zero to hero in a matter of a few hands, I think it better than going all in with Q high.
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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heatman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 312
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Thanks for the replies. Especially appreciate the input on size of raises. It makes perfect sense. A 2XBB raise isn't going to scare anyone, especially one of the blinds with a decent hand. And when the blinds are high, it just takes a good size cut out of my stack without accomlishing much.
I also agree with the assessment of my calls in those last two tournaments. After both I was just kicking myself for dumb play. The feedback confims what I was thinking (after the fact, because I clearly wasn't thinking at the time). I let my concern for staying ahead of the blinds override common sense. It doesn't make any sense at all to play weak cards just to try to stay ahead, and if you feel the need to make a move - make it. Don't fool around with puny raises and then call the all-in.
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