DON Strategy Part II - Mid-Tournament / Post-flop play

**kevster** · 09-27-2009 07:34 AM

Disclaimer: This guide is based on my experiences of $10 DON SNGs.

Introduction

This post follows on from my Introduction to DONs and looks at post-flop play and how play needs to adjust as a tournament progresses.

Post-Flop Play

When you see a flop, you really need to have something to continue. I don’t hate c-betting but it has less value than in normal tournaments (this goes for other bluffs too) and therefore I don’t often c-bet. If I choose to c-bet it will have to be on a dry board against a tight opp and with a hand that still has some value (e.g. overcards) and not just any two. My default play when I’ve missed is usually to check.

When you do have a hand (and by this I mean at least top pair), play it fast unless it’s a genuine monster. As with c-bet/bluffing, slowplaying has little value. A made hand is one of our few opportunities to build our stack, so bet it hard and don’t complain if everyone folds.

If you have a made hand on the flop and we face resistance then folding is once again your default play*. I want at least trips to carry on here and have routinely folded two pair many times in the past. Your opponents are playing much tighter and are also generally leaning towards a fold in most instances. If they play back at you on the flop then they’re hardly ever doing this with a bluff or even with TPTK. I’d suggest that these instances are so few that you’re not missing a great deal of value by folding when they do unknowingly occur.

*The ability to fold when facing resistance (unless you have a very strong hand and/or killer read) is a key skill in DONs and is something that will give you an edge over your opponents. As I stated in my introduction to DONs, the inability to fold seemingly strong hands such as AA is the number 2 mistake I see from players of DONs.

Hands don’t often get to the turn or river and if they do, it’s either being checked down or someone has a monster. If you go beyond the flop be incredibly careful unless you’re holding the nuts. Unless my hand is super strong, my default play would be to try and check the hand down unless I felt a there was a high percentage chance that I was ahead. The same obviously applies to scary boards.

Widening Your Range

It is optimal to remain tight throughout a DON but, as with other SNGs, it is a good idea to widen your range slightly as the tournament progresses. Typically, I do this when the antes kick-in and increase and when the field is reduced to 7 players. Conversely, my play tightens up again when the tournament reaches the bubble.

When I widen my range this is focussed on late position. Small to medium pairs still have little value in the early positions at the table. Infact, small pairs remain largely useless throughout a DON tournament.

Stealing Blinds

It might seem obvious that you’re going to be stealing blinds a lot less often but there’s still a place for it under the right circumstances. Bear in mind that most of your opponents are inclined to fold more than usual so the situation is often ripe for blind stealing from the button and CO providing those still to act are not idiots and you have a reasonable hand. Stealing in the early rounds is largely pointless but as the tournament progresses, it can be useful (and often crucial, particularly on the bubble) in maintaining your stack.

M

It is typical of normal SNGs that you should be looking to get all-in with an M of 5 or less. In DONs however, because of the tighter play that happens as a result of the flat payout structure, this can be stretched. Typically, I don’t reach panic stations until my M is less than 3. Depending on the other stack sizes at the table, this could be stretched to 2 or even less if the bubble has been reached.

If I have a hand that I want to raise, I will be going all-in if the raise is enough to take my M significantly below 3 and/or if the blinds are about to hit and will affect my stack significantly.

When looking at your M at the M of others at the table, try and be aware of when the blinds are going up as this will obviously affect your raising / all-in decisions.

When your M becomes short and you are looking to raise/shove try and be aware of the position of the short and big stacks at the table. The shorter you get then the more likely the big stacks will call but the small stacks may also call if they are desperate. Meanwhile, the average stacks are just looking to fold and avoid trouble. The same thinking can be applied to stealing blinds.

All comments welcome.

Part III - End Game, Bubble play and Collusion to follow.....

**Nakamura** · 09-27-2009 06:22 PM

Nice post, I like the bit about widening your range as the antes kick in. This is an important part of my game and something that really helps to maintain a healthy stack size (which is obv important in maintaining FE).

**Chopper** · 10-02-2009 01:51 PM

you guys are assuming there are no "moves" that can be made and/or the significant edge you gain by taking advantage of players both tight and loose by note taking.

r and f, l and f, r and c, l and c, are my most common notes, and they give me a much better chance to get to the bubble.

r = raise
l = limp
f = fold
c = call

exploiting these players will allow you to build a stack somewhat through the mid-stages, but before blind stealing becomes paramount to survival.....which also isn't mentioned.

pfr'ing and cbetting in the early/mid rounds is pretty bad if you dont have a very reliable read on your villain, as you mentioned. but, to clarify, if you raise to 60, get called, and cbet 90, you have put 150 in on an attempt to pick up a 120 pot. if you just fold and wait for the blinds to get to 50/100, a successful steal will give you 150 chips....with less risk.

the portion on "M" is VERY correct.

another "move" is knowing when to minraise and knowing when to shove. on the bubble, although correct, we aren't going to always shove. that's the recipe for beats. sometimes, against the right villains, minraising is more effective. sometimes 4X'ing 2/3 your stack, looking like you commit yourself, will also sell "a big hand" to your villains.

there is more room to "play" in these than people think.

there is more to winning at these than "playing tighter than tight."

**kevster** · 10-03-2009 08:10 PM

Thanks for the post Chopper. At least someone replied

You should know that my aim was to create some basic strategy posts as there didn't appear to be any and there was a lot of crap being talked in a few DON threads that were knocking about. You can definitely expand on this and make certain moves.

That said, I've found the basic strat to be pretty successful 4-tabling the $10s. I agree with what you're saying about "tighter than tight" and I def advocating opening up where appropriate.

**Chopper** · 10-03-2009 08:23 PM

kev,

i was 12-tabling the 10's last winter, and will be again soon. if there "has" to be a guide to play these, it would be really easy to put a few regs' heads together and cover some easier things....like bubble play and ICM type stuff. i know i could use the refresher, too.

bottom line for readers: if you are looking for a way to quickly grind a roll, this is it. but, be prepared for some of the worst beats imaginable. when it gets down to bubble time, if you are pushing AK, most players arent too incorrect to call with trash. and, that small edge takes eons to come to fruition. calling me with T6o used to tilt me, but it isnt that incorrect if you look at only the odds. once i saw that it was only 65/35, my tilt calmed down significantly.

**kevster** · 10-04-2009 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Chopper

i was 12-tabling the 10's last winter, and will be again soon. if there "has" to be a guide to play these, it would be really easy to put a few regs' heads together and cover some easier things....like bubble play and ICM type stuff. i know i could use the refresher, too.

There doesn't have to be a guide, I just saw that there wasn't one and so knocked up something basic for newbies - I ran it based Naka before posting and he uber multi-tables.

I mention bubble play in my third DON post. Again, it's just basics and the kind of things I've found to be successful.

Naka is working on a more situational DON strat thread that he should be posting soon.[/url]

**RoundThemUPjoe** · 10-05-2009 04:12 AM

Kev, for me this post has been helpful..chopper too.... I have only played a few DONS but have gotten very frustrated as I tried to play them the same way as a reg SNG...i didn't have much luck so i quit. I have been reading as much as I can about M and ICM ( which I still don't apply as I am not good at calculating that in my head ) and that has helped me a great deal in MTT and 1 table SNGS. after reading these posts I am going to give the DONS another go...again thanks for the post.

**Gopentelp** · 11-18-2012 09:38 PM

hello

**postiga** · 11-21-2012 11:34 AM

Nice post, as a player of DONs i will follow attently your posts and if you put some hands i will discuse them and give my opinion

**jaxpaboo** · 11-26-2012 02:42 PM

Good post. Do you ever play the turbos? I've been multi-tabling 6 handed turbos on Bovada for quite some time. I think less nits will play these, so more value.

As for c-betting... I think you are losing a lot of value by not putting in a cb on any flop. Assuming you are heads up vs one of the blinds or an EP limper.

09-27-2009 07:34 AM #1
kevster View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2006 Posts 2,063 Location Fold City	DON Strategy Part II - Mid-Tournament / Post-flop play Disclaimer: This guide is based on my experiences of $10 DON SNGs. Introduction This post follows on from my Introduction to DONs and looks at post-flop play and how play needs to adjust as a tournament progresses. Post-Flop Play When you see a flop, you really need to have something to continue. I don’t hate c-betting but it has less value than in normal tournaments (this goes for other bluffs too) and therefore I don’t often c-bet. If I choose to c-bet it will have to be on a dry board against a tight opp and with a hand that still has some value (e.g. overcards) and not just any two. My default play when I’ve missed is usually to check. When you do have a hand (and by this I mean at least top pair), play it fast unless it’s a genuine monster. As with c-bet/bluffing, slowplaying has little value. A made hand is one of our few opportunities to build our stack, so bet it hard and don’t complain if everyone folds. If you have a made hand on the flop and we face resistance then folding is once again your default play. I want at least trips to carry on here and have routinely folded two pair many times in the past. Your opponents are playing much tighter and are also generally leaning towards a fold in most instances. If they play back at you on the flop then they’re hardly ever doing this with a bluff or even with TPTK. I’d suggest that these instances are so few that you’re not missing a great deal of value by folding when they do unknowingly occur. The ability to fold when facing resistance (unless you have a very strong hand and/or killer read) is a key skill in DONs and is something that will give you an edge over your opponents. As I stated in my introduction to DONs, the inability to fold seemingly strong hands such as AA is the number 2 mistake I see from players of DONs. Hands don’t often get to the turn or river and if they do, it’s either being checked down or someone has a monster. If you go beyond the flop be incredibly careful unless you’re holding the nuts. Unless my hand is super strong, my default play would be to try and check the hand down unless I felt a there was a high percentage chance that I was ahead. The same obviously applies to scary boards. Widening Your Range It is optimal to remain tight throughout a DON but, as with other SNGs, it is a good idea to widen your range slightly as the tournament progresses. Typically, I do this when the antes kick-in and increase and when the field is reduced to 7 players. Conversely, my play tightens up again when the tournament reaches the bubble. When I widen my range this is focussed on late position. Small to medium pairs still have little value in the early positions at the table. Infact, small pairs remain largely useless throughout a DON tournament. Stealing Blinds It might seem obvious that you’re going to be stealing blinds a lot less often but there’s still a place for it under the right circumstances. Bear in mind that most of your opponents are inclined to fold more than usual so the situation is often ripe for blind stealing from the button and CO providing those still to act are not idiots and you have a reasonable hand. Stealing in the early rounds is largely pointless but as the tournament progresses, it can be useful (and often crucial, particularly on the bubble) in maintaining your stack. M It is typical of normal SNGs that you should be looking to get all-in with an M of 5 or less. In DONs however, because of the tighter play that happens as a result of the flat payout structure, this can be stretched. Typically, I don’t reach panic stations until my M is less than 3. Depending on the other stack sizes at the table, this could be stretched to 2 or even less if the bubble has been reached. If I have a hand that I want to raise, I will be going all-in if the raise is enough to take my M significantly below 3 and/or if the blinds are about to hit and will affect my stack significantly. When looking at your M at the M of others at the table, try and be aware of when the blinds are going up as this will obviously affect your raising / all-in decisions. When your M becomes short and you are looking to raise/shove try and be aware of the position of the short and big stacks at the table. The shorter you get then the more likely the big stacks will call but the small stacks may also call if they are desperate. Meanwhile, the average stacks are just looking to fold and avoid trouble. The same thinking can be applied to stealing blinds. All comments welcome. Part III - End Game, Bubble play and Collusion to follow.....
	- You're the reason why paradise lost
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09-27-2009 06:22 PM #2
Nakamura View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2008 Posts 1,573 Location Grindin'	Nice post, I like the bit about widening your range as the antes kick in. This is an important part of my game and something that really helps to maintain a healthy stack size (which is obv important in maintaining FE).

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10-02-2009 01:51 PM #3
Chopper View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2005 Posts 4,612 Location St. Louis, MO	you guys are assuming there are no "moves" that can be made and/or the significant edge you gain by taking advantage of players both tight and loose by note taking. r and f, l and f, r and c, l and c, are my most common notes, and they give me a much better chance to get to the bubble. r = raise l = limp f = fold c = call exploiting these players will allow you to build a stack somewhat through the mid-stages, but before blind stealing becomes paramount to survival.....which also isn't mentioned. pfr'ing and cbetting in the early/mid rounds is pretty bad if you dont have a very reliable read on your villain, as you mentioned. but, to clarify, if you raise to 60, get called, and cbet 90, you have put 150 in on an attempt to pick up a 120 pot. if you just fold and wait for the blinds to get to 50/100, a successful steal will give you 150 chips....with less risk. the portion on "M" is VERY correct. another "move" is knowing when to minraise and knowing when to shove. on the bubble, although correct, we aren't going to always shove. that's the recipe for beats. sometimes, against the right villains, minraising is more effective. sometimes 4X'ing 2/3 your stack, looking like you commit yourself, will also sell "a big hand" to your villains. there is more room to "play" in these than people think. there is more to winning at these than "playing tighter than tight."
	LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS. Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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10-03-2009 08:10 PM #4
kevster View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2006 Posts 2,063 Location Fold City	Thanks for the post Chopper. At least someone replied You should know that my aim was to create some basic strategy posts as there didn't appear to be any and there was a lot of crap being talked in a few DON threads that were knocking about. You can definitely expand on this and make certain moves. That said, I've found the basic strat to be pretty successful 4-tabling the $10s. I agree with what you're saying about "tighter than tight" and I def advocating opening up where appropriate.
	- You're the reason why paradise lost
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10-03-2009 08:23 PM #5
Chopper View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2005 Posts 4,612 Location St. Louis, MO	kev, i was 12-tabling the 10's last winter, and will be again soon. if there "has" to be a guide to play these, it would be really easy to put a few regs' heads together and cover some easier things....like bubble play and ICM type stuff. i know i could use the refresher, too. bottom line for readers: if you are looking for a way to quickly grind a roll, this is it. but, be prepared for some of the worst beats imaginable. when it gets down to bubble time, if you are pushing AK, most players arent too incorrect to call with trash. and, that small edge takes eons to come to fruition. calling me with T6o used to tilt me, but it isnt that incorrect if you look at only the odds. once i saw that it was only 65/35, my tilt calmed down significantly.
	LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS. Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
Reply With Quote

DON Strategy Part II - Mid-Tournament / Post-flop play

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DON Strategy Part II - Mid-Tournament / Post-flop play

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10-04-2009 07:19 AM #6
kevster View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2006 Posts 2,063 Location Fold City	Originally Posted by Chopper i was 12-tabling the 10's last winter, and will be again soon. if there "has" to be a guide to play these, it would be really easy to put a few regs' heads together and cover some easier things....like bubble play and ICM type stuff. i know i could use the refresher, too. There doesn't have to be a guide, I just saw that there wasn't one and so knocked up something basic for newbies - I ran it based Naka before posting and he uber multi-tables. I mention bubble play in my third DON post. Again, it's just basics and the kind of things I've found to be successful. Naka is working on a more situational DON strat thread that he should be posting soon.[/url]
	- You're the reason why paradise lost
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10-05-2009 04:12 AM #7
RoundThemUPjoe View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2009 Posts 18 Location MI	Kev, for me this post has been helpful..chopper too.... I have only played a few DONS but have gotten very frustrated as I tried to play them the same way as a reg SNG...i didn't have much luck so i quit. I have been reading as much as I can about M and ICM ( which I still don't apply as I am not good at calculating that in my head ) and that has helped me a great deal in MTT and 1 table SNGS. after reading these posts I am going to give the DONS another go...again thanks for the post.

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11-18-2012 09:38 PM #8
Gopentelp View Profile View Forum Posts Join Date Nov 2012 Posts 4	hello hello

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11-21-2012 11:34 AM #9
postiga View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2009 Posts 96	Nice post, as a player of DONs i will follow attently your posts and if you put some hands i will discuse them and give my opinion

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11-26-2012 02:42 PM #10
jaxpaboo View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2011 Posts 93 Location Planet Earth	Good post. Do you ever play the turbos? I've been multi-tabling 6 handed turbos on Bovada for quite some time. I think less nits will play these, so more value. As for c-betting... I think you are losing a lot of value by not putting in a cb on any flop. Assuming you are heads up vs one of the blinds or an EP limper.
	"Fish Can't Hear. ™" - Zerbet
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