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Aceofone
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08-29-2004, 06:29 AM
Post subject: Discussion: My MTT Strategy
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 497
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RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?p=17185
Thats a big post. 
My brain hurts from reading all of it. Thank you Micheal for taking the time to write it, my MTT game is horribly weak, I'm not certain if you remember the FTR IV (damn I hate KK) but we played heads up after and I got schooled by you. I will definately be re-reading this post and hope some other MTT vets might have something to add.
I've given up thinking that MTT's require luck (Except for "Teecoy" on PS, damn that guys good). One question I want to ask you is how long you've been playing MTT's (not questioning your skills, just curious)?
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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dutchfan
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 77
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BEFORE I READ THIS:
want is mtt? lol
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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thanks michael.
hope to see you in the big ones one day.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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MTT = Multitable tournament
I've been playing MTTs since I've been playing Holdem, which is going on a year now. Plus a ton of freerolls when my bankroll was non-existent, which gives you MTT experience against large fields, but doesn't give you experience playing against too many good players. It does teach discipline though.
I've been playing MTTs religiously for the past couple weeks on Poker Stars. Religiously as in, its been the only form of poker I've been playing, unless there isn't a good MTT going.
The two table SNGs on Poker Stars give you a bit of MTT type experience as well, and the turbos teach aggression, which is needed in the later rounds of MTTs.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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You're one of my heros man.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You're one of my heros man.
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... Is that sarcastic? I'm not use to seeing posts like that from you, Fnord. I see you replied, and I'm expecting to see my strategy ripped to shreads. 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
... Is that sarcastic? I'm not use to seeing posts like that from you, Fnord. I see you replied, and I'm expecting to see my strategy ripped to shreads. |
Nope. It's one of the best posts ever made on this board and I don't have enough experience in the format to argue any fine points.
I don't shit on posts for a quick rush. I do so to provoke debate that strengthens everyone's game. If you think I'm critical of some of the posts here, I'm harder on myself when I review my own hands in Poker Tracker. I could post some real gems...
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Haha. Well then, thanks Fnord. Its quite the complement.
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Legendash
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Full House
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crypto 6max 100NL
Posts: 611
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I agree, this is a fantastic post and i'm going to start playing cheap MTT's to see if i can improve my play, i've got in the money in freerolls before, 10th out of 682 is my best for a mighty 15 bucks so i'll see if i can build on that.
Cheers micheal, keep up the good work.
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heatman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 312
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Michael, its no wonder you're winning these things. Your strategy sounds solid, and it takes an awesome understanding of it to put a great post like that together.
Congrats man, keep it up.
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"Limit poker is a science, but no-limit is an art..."
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,887
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"Learn to play like a pro. Hear the ins and outs of how to win major tournaments. Only $10 a copy, get 'em while they're hot. You too could make over $10,000 per week, for the low investment of $10... errr... $50!"
Great post, I'll use it well. 
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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DrNoChance
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08-29-2004, 03:35 PM
Post subject: Re: My MTT strategy
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#12 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 411
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
1.) "If a bluff doesn't work, don't bluff at a pot again." This is a myth!
2.) Keep your preflop raises consistent. Once the blinds get big, I love raising 2.5xBB.
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1.) This is something I need work on. I seldom back up flop bluffs with turn bluffs, and when I do the timing is poor and I lose most of my stack. Experience will improve my timing/reads on this I suppose.
2.) I thought I was like the only person who loved raising 2.5X BB when the blinds get big! I agree that this amount works very well in my SnG experiences, and I'm sure in MTTs as well.
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dutchfan
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 77
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What is MTT?
I am just guessing, Multi-table tournament?
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AvatarKava
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 464
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dutchfan
What is MTT?
I am just guessing, Multi-table tournament?
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Yes. He answered you earlier in the thread
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Great post Michael. I'll be sure to keep some of your points in mind during the FTR league,lol.
Off topic, but does FTR pay you? They should give you like a contributing editor position. You're like averaging 11 posts a day,lol. And you joined after I did. You should show something for the effort. :P
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dutchfan
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 77
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AvatarKava
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dutchfan
What is MTT?
I am just guessing, Multi-table tournament?
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Yes. He answered you earlier in the thread |
Oh, haah, sorry, i scrolled down the whole page looking and didn't see it. Then i realized the topic was about a poker tournament, and i took a shot. Anyways, thanks, I best get to reading!
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
"Learn to play like a pro. Hear the ins and outs of how to win major tournaments. Only $10 a copy, get 'em while they're hot. You too could make over $10,000 per week, for the low investment of $10... errr... $50!"
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Hahaha, you made me spit my cereal out. Thanks, Humph.
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Fnord
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08-29-2004, 11:35 PM
Post subject: Re: My MTT strategy
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#18 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrNoChance
2.) I thought I was like the only person who loved raising 2.5X BB when the blinds get big! I agree that this amount works very well in my SnG experiences, and I'm sure in MTTs as well. |
Fossilman says this too, although the number he gave was 2.7, less if you can get away with it.
BTW, I was doing this in the last 2 FTR showdowns and got some interesting comments...
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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I used to use 3x. After reading this I switched to 2.5 and I have the exact same results.
Thanks
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DrNoChance
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 411
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I don't do this, but I often see minimum raises do the job (once blinds are a decent size) if they are made from UTG because of the extra respect an UTG raise receives.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,348
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I used to play the free rolls at vegas but they have all disappeared can you recomend some sites that have free rolls? Thank you.
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chanman83
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Va
Posts: 98
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by !Luck
I used to play the free rolls at vegas but they have all disappeared can you recomend some sites that have free rolls? Thank you.
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free rolls like online?? UB has a ton, party sometimes.. stars SUCKS for free rolls...
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Legendash
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Full House
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crypto 6max 100NL
Posts: 611
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gaming club et al (all the prima skins) have pretty good freerolls but the blinds suck so you won't be able to use all your new micheal powers in them as most of the time you've got to fold or push.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Nice strat.
I'm also a 2.5xBB raiser. I think it gets way more respect than a min raise.
The topic of continuing a bluff through the turn and river is intriguing and something I have struggled with. Whenever I do it successfully, I give myself a huge pat on the back. Whenever it doesn't work, I vow never to do it again.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Mike do you have similar success in freezouts without R&A's? I shy away from the R&A's because I am cheap I guess. I also can't stand the first hour when everyone is in gamble mode. It just gets silly. I have made a few final tables but not BIG scores on MTT's. If I get my hands on some chips I can stick around a long time. However, I usually end up with nothing more than an average stack and after the second or third break it is nothing but AI or fold. The MTT's seem to turn into repeated coin flips in later rounds. If you win the coinflips you are golden, if not, I'm on the rail.
I can't tell you how many times I have taken a huge hit when JJ, QQ or KK goes down in flames to a weak Ace. The other problem I find online is people make the worst/loosest calls ever ie. people play K10, A9 like they were gold which makes it dangerous to bluff often.
I love MTT's. I think they are the most exciting when you get into the later rounds and every single hand can make or break you. I just can't seem to make a lot of money yet.
Your post is well written and very similar to my style. I just have not hit it big yet.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SteveO
Mike do you have similar success in freezouts without R&A's?
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I've had some, but not any huge wins, largely because the payouts are always much smaller, unless there's many more people or a higher buyin. I made it far into a $100 freezeout last night, and got a bad beat to knock me out 5th for $1,300. First place was $6k, and I would've had a good opportunity to win that had the QQ not been busted.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SteveO
I shy away from the R&A's because I am cheap I guess. I also can't stand the first hour when everyone is in gamble mode. It just gets silly.
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Yeah, they can be annoying, especially when you're getting bad beats. That's why I like to think of the rebuy period as a seperate silly tourney, that's only purpose is to determine how many chips you'll have for the rest of the tourney.
Quote:
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The MTT's seem to turn into repeated coin flips in later rounds. If you win the coinflips you are golden, if not, I'm on the rail.
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There is definitely some of that, but that's why you need to earn a big stack while you can. As a big stack, you won't be forced into any coinflips. You can weigh your options and the potential risk and reward, and choose when to call the small stacks on their all ins.
Quote:
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I can't tell you how many times I have taken a huge hit when JJ, QQ or KK goes down in flames to a weak Ace. The other problem I find online is people make the worst/loosest calls ever ie. people play K10, A9 like they were gold which makes it dangerous to bluff often.
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Not so much in the higher buyin ones, at least on Poker Stars. I usually find under $30 buyins to be pretty fishy, and over $30 to be pretty solid. There's some exceptions on both sides, but typicially this seems to be the case.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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really nice post, michael!
it's enough to make me want to play more MTT's.
you've been cleaning up the last couple of weeks - can i borrow $20 bucks?
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i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...
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Radashack
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 522
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Hi All,
Great post Michael, havn't seen you around much, you still play on stars?
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elanto
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,117
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Great Post Micheal, you mentioned earlier that you used to play freerolls because you didnt have a big enough bankroll, well how well did you dso on those freerolls, because the best Ive been able to do was 50/6k in the gaming club and 1/450 in pokerchamps(twice but for 4 dollars each time), still havent been able to get ITM for big bucks, any suggestion (sites strategies, etc... )
-anto
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<dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Corey
Quote:
Be willing to see cheap flops with all hands that have potential, like small pocket pairs and suited connectors and one gappers. Maybe even call some 3x BB bets (or preferably less) when the blinds are very small, with hands like this, hoping to hit a big flop, where you may be able to take someones stack. As strange as it may seem, if you put a guy on a very strong hand like AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or AQ, its better to call with these hands than with other strong hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, etc. Be especially more willing to call these bets with these hands if many other people call in front of you, as you're really just calling based on implied odds. More people in the pot is better for you.
But, on the flip side of the coin, be tight when it comes to calling big bets. If you think you're beat, fold. You need to have a steady increase to your stack in MTTs, so you need to avoid as many big losses as you can.
Don't bluff or blind steal much in the early rounds. Until the BB gets to 150-200, blind stealing isn't all that profitable, and is just increasing your risk. But, against tight players in the blinds, its still a good idea to throw out 3x BB in late position after its folded around to you, with an ok hand (KTo, 22, A2s, etc.). The reason being, even if they call, you can likely bluff them out on the flop, picking up even more than the blinds
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So with cheap rounds calling with 9/7o 8/6o like limping in is ok w/ blinds in the area and non higher than 50/100? Calling or limping in with these hands need to have a good post flop game? Or check/fold if nothing hits?
Glad I found this about early on in MTTs I seem to be the low stack since I play foldem holdem early. Until I hit a hand and get a stack.
Thanks and hope these questions are answered. |
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Corey
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 1,349
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Thanks Xianti;
I apologize didnt realize the discussion was same as the topic name.
That quote talks about early on in MTTs to get a chip stack.
Thanks
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Corey
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Yeah, I think its fine to limp with hands like that in late position, especially if there's a lot of limpers in front of you.
I try to see as many cheap flops as possible on the first few rounds when I have hands with decent potential (especially in a rebuy, where it may be advisable to see nearly every cheap flop you can, since you know if you hit you're more likely to be paid off).
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stever35
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09-04-2005, 04:55 AM
Post subject: Thanks Michael
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#33 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 17
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I've been playing for two years and am a solid, (not great) NL ring game player. I've tried a few MTT, doing ok my best place finish was around 15th out of 1500 or so.
I read your MTT yesterday and entered the PP $5 plus rebuys today with 1100 or so players, I made it out of the first hour with 10,500 chips and scored third place, for $1684.80. This is despite making three stupid mistakes along the way that cost me a fair few chips.
Mucho gracias
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Congrats. Glad it could be of some help.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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thanks to this strat I was able to fold into the money in a 200 person 5 dollar tourny. This feat allowed me to win the FTR Poster of the Year award for MTT accomplishments. Thanks, michael!
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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poker n00b
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9
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i'm trying out a live $25 MTT tonight. we'll see how that goes. thanks for the advice. i'm gonna need it
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pokerjfb
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10-28-2005, 09:49 PM
Post subject: When is mid-late round
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#37 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4
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Most mmt i play i usually bust out because i miss the transistion to the mid to late stages from the early stages. In tournys that I have gone deep I am usually tightening up to 2.5 raises and making it a game of blind stealing before everyone else has. This often hurts because it hinders my ability to increase my stack as people are more loose in this early stage. My question is in relation to the M of the starting stack what would you say this transition happens. For example would you say that when the blinds are 50 100 and the starting stack is 1500 meaning you would have an m of10 with the starting stack is this to early? Must you wait till the blinds are 75 150? or 100 200?
Great post BTW I am also new hopefully I didnt ask something that has already been asked.
I apoligize for writing this in the main board i didnt see the dont post here sorry im new.
~JFB
I lost my bankroll with a straight flush[/quote]
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,512
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I don't understand your question.
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pokerjfb
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4
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well i guess my question is really in say a pokerstars poker tournament with 1500 starting chips when would you say to stray from an early tournament strategy and start playing in a mid to late style. you mention the mid-late style of the tournament has a lot of big stacks taking turns stealing the blinds. When do you say that the tournament switches gears according to blind level. Would you say 50 100? 75 150, 100 200?
~JFB
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,512
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I think way too much depends on the number of entrants in a tourney and the rate the blinds increase to give even a general answer as to when you can get away with the 2.5xBB raise rather than the 3-4xBB raise.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,794
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roid_Rage
Sounds like vodka redbulls are pretty popular. How is this mixed, made?
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Quillspirit
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by !Luck
I used to play the free rolls at vegas but they have all disappeared can you recomend some sites that have free rolls? Thank you.
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Poker Pages has them every hour, for Player Points... can work your way up and buy into $ MTT's with them.
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DRL453
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15
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EXCELLENT post! Thanks a lot. Mike do you have the same handle at pokerstars? I'd like to watch you play sometime if you don't mind! Also, do you take notes on your opponents during the mtts?
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DRL453
EXCELLENT post! Thanks a lot. Mike do you have the same handle at pokerstars? I'd like to watch you play sometime if you don't mind! Also, do you take notes on your opponents during the mtts?
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Yes, he has the same same.
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DRL453
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15
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Does he ever play?? I have yet to see him.
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supermoneyz1
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Quote:
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I've noticed that at the flop when the blinds are big, after I've preflop raised, I don't even consider if I've hit the flop or not. I typically fire out a bet that is about the size of the pot no matter whether I hit it or not. Sometimes I don't even care if I hit it or not! If you're playing against good players, they typically will lay a hand down to a solid bet if they think they're beat and don't have a good draw.
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Wrong….It is important to evaluate the texture of the flop in relation to your opponents possible holding’s... In some situations continuation bets can be unnecessary. Once blinds are high, you don’t want to invest a great portion of you’re stack on a continuation bet especially if the flop most likely helped your opponent…Also, a pot sized bet is unnecessary. A ½ - ¾ pot bet will accomplish the same task, while saving chips if you decide to dump the hand…
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The later in a tournament you are, the more it becomes a game of taking turns stealing blinds among the big stacks.
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The statement “taking turns stealing blinds” is poorly worded. If people know you’re blatantly stealing the blinds, people would loosen up their calling range and often push over you, leaving yourself with a tough decision. Many of my chips deep in tournaments come from players who commonly 3x in LP because they feel entitled to steal. The statement suggests that there is a pattern upon stealing the blinds which is completely wrong.
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coozhound
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 28
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thanks for the advice miachal1123 my boss got me in to poker when i seen he was making more than my pay at online poker he gave me the basics 11 buy in with rebuys didn't have a clue what the hell he was talking about but after reading your post have a understanding of it all and a good sound strategy that i will use part of because i know to watch what i say on here but for now i just like to play donky kick ball and donky kick them in there balls and every now and then i put what I read to the test so will be putting yours to the test real soon because those rb/ao sure sound alot like free roll tourny once again michael thanks
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<<<<<<JUST A TROLL LOOKING FOR A FREE BRIDGE TO CROSS>>>>>>
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Sabr1988
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark, Kalundborg
Posts: 66
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Very interesting reading Michael. Over the last week i really lost motivation because i dont have the patience to get to the money even. I dont know why, but sometimes i can play real good and focus without any doubt to play a hand or not, and sometimes i loose alot of hands and ending getting badbeat when ai with shortstack.
But after reading this post, wich have some really good advices, but also something ive tried a couple of times before, i really got motivated to play again, and without any doubt if i can make it or not.
So tomorrow i will deposit 20$ and try to play some cashgame and a couple of mtt's and try to build a solid bankroll so that i can start playing some mtt's with a 5$+ buyin.
Thanks for your advices and for giving me motivation again.
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With patience you win
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Sabr1988
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Denmark, Kalundborg
Posts: 66
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Ohh one more thing, I'm not that good at english and i dont know what limp or limp in means, also UTG, i really cant figure out exactly what those words means, hope someone will help me explain then. Thanks.
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With patience you win
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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limp means that you call the BB without raising and UTG stands for "Under The Gun", which is the first person to act pre-flop.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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