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gabe

09-06-2005, 04:34 AM Post subject: Discussion: chardrian's Rebuy Strategy

#1 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=18643

Table "$20,000 R&A 28" (MTT) -- Seat 7 is the button
Seat 1: radjapan (45,175 in chips)
Seat 2: jonsilver (31,588 in chips)
Seat 3: R KIDD (29,150 in chips)
Seat 5: Ms.Lesh (17,950 in chips)
Seat 7: eellee (169,170 in chips)
Seat 8: ACARI (16,700 in chips)
Seat 9: chardrian (93,325 in chips)
Seat 10: mr pattaya 1 (67,064 in chips)
jonsilver: Ante (200)
R KIDD : Ante (200)
Ms.Lesh : Ante (200)
eellee : Ante (200)
ACARI : Ante (200)
chardrian: Ante (200)
mr pattaya 1: Ante (200)
radjapan: Ante (200)
ACARI : Post Small Blind (2,000)
chardrian: Post Big Blind (4,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Jd ]
Dealt to chardrian [ 3d ]
mr pattaya 1: Fold
radjapan: Fold
jonsilver: Fold
R KIDD : Fold
Ms.Lesh : Fold
eellee : Raise (12,000)
ACARI : Fold
chardrian: Call (8,000)

i dont like this one. reraise him preflop if you think hes stealing too much.

i definitely fold the 99. you aren't much ahead of anything, and you don't want a coinflip.

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chardrian

09-06-2005, 02:32 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Table "$20,000 R&A 28" (MTT) -- Seat 7 is the button
Seat 1: radjapan (45,175 in chips)
Seat 2: jonsilver (31,588 in chips)
Seat 3: R KIDD (29,150 in chips)
Seat 5: Ms.Lesh (17,950 in chips)
Seat 7: eellee (169,170 in chips)
Seat 8: ACARI (16,700 in chips)
Seat 9: chardrian (93,325 in chips)
Seat 10: mr pattaya 1 (67,064 in chips)
jonsilver: Ante (200)
R KIDD : Ante (200)
Ms.Lesh : Ante (200)
eellee : Ante (200)
ACARI : Ante (200)
chardrian: Ante (200)
mr pattaya 1: Ante (200)
radjapan: Ante (200)
ACARI : Post Small Blind (2,000)
chardrian: Post Big Blind (4,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Jd ]
Dealt to chardrian [ 3d ]
mr pattaya 1: Fold
radjapan: Fold
jonsilver: Fold
R KIDD : Fold
Ms.Lesh : Fold
eellee : Raise (12,000)
ACARI : Fold
chardrian: Call (8,000)

i dont like this one. reraise him preflop if you think hes stealing too much.

i definitely fold the 99. you aren't much ahead of anything, and you don't want a coinflip.

In general I agree with what you are saying with the 3J hand. But like I said it was based on a read. It was an obvious steal - but he would've felt compelled to call a reraise since he was now "invested." I only showed it as a play based on a read and I stand by it.

The 99 hand. There were two hands that beat me, 7 hands I dominated, and a whole bunch where I was a 55-45 favorite. I am not saying a fold would be bad here, but no way do I consider gambling here a bad choice either. If I lost I put myself in a push or fold situation. If I fold blinds soon go up to where I will only have 10xBB and I will be in a push or fold situation. If I win, I get to let others go at it and can strike back at opportune moments or with big hands. This was my only GambooL of the tourney - and sometimes you gotta gamble.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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chardrian

09-07-2005, 06:50 PM

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I need to boost this mofo back up since I spent too much time writing it to not get any replies.

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come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

bencathers

09-07-2005, 09:06 PM

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I just read the whole thing and think its fantastic. I'm starting to really work on my rebuy game since that is where I've much of my success in hold-em MTTs.... do you think a lot of this advice is valid for limit mtts, omaha or other forms of poker?

I want to play an R&A now... what do you normally do? 6-8 buyins per tournament? I was watching T soprano play one where I saw him do 100 buy ins. How do you play if you are at like a table with him.... where he pushes ALL in EVERY HAND no matter what... how tight do you have to be then?

Dealer: bencathers has two pair, Aces and Deuces
Dealer: Tbags has two pair, Kings and Jacks
Dealer: Tbags finished the tournament in 256th place
Tbags [observer]: another scumbag gets there on this site lol

chardrian

09-07-2005, 09:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Woo hoo! You just made my day!

I can put anywhere between 3 buy-ins (2 rebuys and 1 add-on and just kick ass like I did on Monday) up to 7 buy-ins (rebuy twice lose them all, rebuy twice again, lose them all again, and rebuy twice once more and an add-on). I paid 6 buy-ins for my FT last week, but it was well worth it.

I too have been enamored by watching guys like NSXT2 rebuy over and over and over again. But now I have realized that at some point you really are just throwing money away. I think you should hope to only pay for 3 buy-ins, expect to pay for 5, and be willing to pay for 7. After that it really is up to you and your bankroll.

If you're at a table with a guy who is just donating, take the donations. But even with the ability to rebuy I'm not calling a push preflop unless I have two cards that are giving me a decent shot at winning (e.g. pocket pairs, two face cards, Ax s, etc.).

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

CrunchyNuts

09-07-2005, 10:31 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Very good insight into R&As, thanks. Haven't yet played one myself, obvious bankroll reasons, but that surely does look interesting. I might just have to stare at your table one of these nights~

Up my bankroll - buy Saints Row.

DoGGz

09-08-2005, 12:32 AM

#7 (permalink)

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If you look at ROI figures, there becomes a point where the Add-on price doesn't justify with the ammount of chips you get. If you have 19,000 chips, I don't think an 2000 chip add-on is worth the price from the ROI perspective.

How about 30K at the break? 40k? At some point the add-on is worthless, and I feel that is right around 20k

gabe

09-08-2005, 12:38 AM

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the times i've had success in rebuys is when there was alot of chips at my table and people were able to play something besides push/fold poker in the 2nd and 3rd hour.

chardrian

09-08-2005, 12:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

I used to think the same thing. Hell it just takes one hand to win those 2500 chips right? That's true, but when you are talking about winning 5 hands an hour those chips become even more precious. The only time I can think of maybe agreeing with you is if no one at the table can get to even half your stack by adding on.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

chardrian

09-08-2005, 12:49 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

the times i've had success in rebuys is when there was alot of chips at my table and people were able to play something besides push/fold poker in the 2nd and 3rd hour.

I agree - that's why playing loose and making the table "chip rich" really is the way to go the rebuy hour.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

CrunchyNuts

09-08-2005, 01:28 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Let me make sure I'm on the same page here. The idea is to play loose to make someone rebuy, possibly yourself, with the intention of making the table be full of chips so you can hopefully win them back before you get moved once people start getting eliminated?

That seems to me to be an odd thing to bank on, and something you have absolutly no control over...but if you don't get moved around a lot in the first couple hours, I see why you'd do this.

chardrian

09-08-2005, 03:36 AM

#12 (permalink)

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The "chip rich" theory seemed illogical to me to start with as well. However, although I have been moved during the rebuy hour it is not that common. At a loose table, you have more people who are willing to rebuy which means less players eliminated and less of a chance of the table being broken up.

You basically just have three goals during the rebuy hour: 1) win a buttload of chips; 2) try to get your table to have a buttload of chips; and 3) maybe make people think you are super loose and have no idea what you are doing so that they will call you with Top Pair and a crappy kicker in the next hour(s).

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

drmcboy

09-08-2005, 11:32 AM

#13 (permalink)

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On the 'why add on with stack XX,XXX' - on PS after the break the blinds are 75/150, heading to 100/200 and you can add on another 2k. That's 3-4 PPs/SCs you can call a 3x raise with in the first half hour after break and look to crack a big hand for free(ish). Which may make your stack (XX,XXX) *2.

bencathers

09-09-2005, 07:14 AM

#14 (permalink)

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(just following up on my last question) How well does this buy-in / rebuy strategy apply to non hold-em games... such as Omaha and stud... or even limit hold-em (YES POKERSTARS HAS LIMIT HOLD-EM REBUYS. WTF)

gabe

09-09-2005, 12:16 PM

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i've seen good players cap everything the first hour in a limit rebuy to build a stack...same idea

DoGGz

09-10-2005, 10:25 AM

#16 (permalink)

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This is probably why I own in FOs and suck in Rebuys

allLiving

09-10-2005, 02:43 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Great posting Chadrian. I'm just bummed that there isn't anything more to read

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Chicago_Kid

09-12-2005, 11:27 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Good post, Chard.

However, I don't really like the 99 hand either, as your calling 2/3 your stack in the freeze out period. I lay this down most everytime---I guess you were pretty sure about. Nonetheless, it's still a flip for 2/3 your stack which is a tough call no matter the read.

I'm a freezeout player at heart, and I'm trying to adjust to the R/B accumulation approach. But I tell you...nothings greater than a couple people misapplying the "chip rich" approach. It's a good way to get 15-20k chips before the break...

For me, I think the most critical period is middle/bubble, where you either go broke or catapult yourself into position for a run. There's nothing less fun than finding yourself sweating it out to the money, because you let yourself lose your leverage during this stage. Mastering the technique and skill of this level seems more central to winning MTT's. The R/B approach seems more about B/R and stomach for accepting more risk, rather than pure skill it seems to me. Please don't take offence here...

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

chardrian

09-13-2005, 12:55 AM

#19 (permalink)

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It's really hard to offend me - don't worry.

I disagree about the skill aspect though. Although the first hour might be a luckfest, as soon as the rebuys stop it becomes a true battle of skill. Whether you start out as a rebuy or freezeout... at some point you are most probably going to have to take a risk. The 99 hand is a good example. I understand why both you and gabe think it's a poor play... but relooking at it - I still think it was worth it. Blinds are about to increase to a point where I am in push/fold mode. The guy who pushed is already in that mode and I still say he didn't have QQ-AA. I actually don't look at this as a cointoss situation. I think it is more like 60/40 my favor. There are only two hands that are crushing me. Quite a few where I am 55/45. But also quite a few where I am 70/30 or better - any lower pocket pair, A8s or lower. That hand gave me enough leverage to actually play poker and put me into the final table.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

chardrian

10-17-2005, 02:33 PM

#20 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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After playing WAY too loose during the rebuy hours lately, I have just edited the rebuy hour section of this. 9 rebuys is the absolute, positive maximum for me from now on... and I think 7 is the total I really should be striving never to exceed. The reason? Even if you end the rebuy with your original 2 rebuys and an add-on you are set up to play tight solid poker for the next hour. With luck you can make it to the FT with just this alone. But even with skill, you usually won't make the FT even if you are sitting pretty after the rebuy hour after 9 rebuys. So for me, the risk/reward cutoff is at 7 rebuys (but I gotta leave myself 2 more just in case).

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

TanO

10-17-2005, 03:48 PM

#21 (permalink)

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I think 7 is the max for me (3 double buyins plus the addon) any more than that just isnt healthy.

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johnny_fish

11-21-2005, 11:08 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Why would you rebuy after losing the first 2 buyins but not after losing the 10th? You're in the same situation now (at 0). IMO, what matters is the future expected payoff and based on that you should make a +EV decision . Past results are irrelevant.

chardrian

11-21-2005, 11:17 PM

#23 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Ooh cool I have two posts that can now race towards 1000 views - I had forgotten about this one. I quit rebuying after 6ish now because by that time you have little time left to get a huge stack within the first hour so future expected payoff is much less.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

johnny_fish

11-21-2005, 11:56 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Ok, so it's not about the number of rebuys then.. You won't rebuy after losing the 2nd buyin after 55 mins, but you will after losing the 10th after 15 mins?

chardrian

11-22-2005, 03:36 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Ok, so it's not about the number of rebuys then.. You won't rebuy after losing the 2nd buyin after 55 mins, but you will after losing the 10th after 15 mins?

I agree with you that it's about the future expected payoff. You then start making incorrect assumptions though.

In most rebuys I have been in, after you've ponied up 7 buy-ins you start coming close to having to make the final table just to recoup your losses. This is dumb.

If I lose my second rebuy after 55 minutes... I rebuy and add-on because with the rebuy and add-on chips I have enough of a stack and enough time that I can still make my way to the FT once the FreezeOut portion begins.

What it comes down to, is that at some point dumping chips on your table no longer becomes cost effective... in general I think that point is after youv'e already rebought 4 times. When you make your 5th buy-in with the immediate 6th buyin with the rebuy I think that in general you really need to back off the looseness.

shysti

11-22-2005, 04:27 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

This entire thread sucks, and you are wrong, it's easy in the rebuy tournaments to win the thing without ever rebuying, just call people's all in with the nuts bam double up, do it again, bam double up, buy at the addon and you are totally making it to the FT!

That's it!

and of course I am just being dumb, great post!

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chardrian

03-03-2006, 10:28 PM

#27 (permalink)

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I'm gonna finally take myself up on adding to this at some point in the future.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

TanO

03-04-2006, 12:02 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Great post Chard

What are your thoughts on sitting out once you hit a certain sized stack during the rebuy hour ? In very loose rebuys I've often sat out once I reached 12k chips, which is basically my rebuy hour aim. I'd rather do this than spew half that stack with only 7 mins left and no time to make it back

Quote:

At some point, you are very likely going to have take a stand that you don't generally really want to take. It's the one hand that's gonna make or break you.

This is the a great point, its finding this spot thats really difficult

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chardrian

03-04-2006, 02:59 PM

#29 (permalink)

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I would never "sit out". I will definitely tighten up.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

Andy Holt

03-04-2006, 03:49 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TanO

If you don't trust yourself to play well and to protect your stack without donking it away, then why are you playing?

THaC

03-04-2006, 06:51 PM

#31 (permalink)

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So you sit out and miss getting AA and an extra 3000+ chips? Like Andy said, if you don't trust yourself to play well, don't play..

jdubs

03-04-2006, 10:50 PM

#32 (permalink)

Full House

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good post- and thread. A very similar line to Rippy's post on rebuys... I look forward to having a BR that will allow me to play rebuys !

TanO

03-05-2006, 12:55 AM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

If you don't trust yourself to play well and to protect your stack without donking it away, then why are you playing?

I am not talking about donking it away, but thanks for the putdown. I am talking about the last ten minute lottery. If your stack is already giving you a significant edge over the field, taking a small edge when 3 or more opponents are allin preflop could be a smaller edge than you have when the rebuy period is over and you can play 'proper' poker with a larger stack than most, assuming you can outplay most of them ?

That was my thinking, on the occasion when I decided to do this.

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adiamant

04-19-2006, 02:14 PM

#34 (permalink)

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And they are saying don't take a small edge as well.
But if a big one comes your way in those last 5 minutes, why not take it?
You're in the big blind with AA and SB just went AI preflop. But you sat out and missed it. That kind of thing.

Great post Chardrian. I'm not really playing rebuys yet, but now I know how I'm going to when I do.

pokerroomace

05-12-2006, 05:08 PM

#35 (permalink)

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How much did you win in the tourney? Must have been a couple of grand.

I didn't really get to read through this, it's too long! but i'll read it soon. I got a rough picture of how to play. I've entered 2 rebuy tourneys in my life. Both times I only had enough money for buyin and then 1 rebuy. I didn't have any money to buy an addon.
The 2nd tournament I played in, I was going in for about 5% of the hands - literally (i wasn't getting anything but hands like a2 unsuited i wouldnt have considered playing). I couldn't rebuy more than once so I had to look after my money. Next time I play rebuy i'll make sure I can afford a few rebuys and an addon. Also, i'll play a lot more hands.

Thanks for the advice

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pokerroomace

05-29-2006, 02:05 PM

#36 (permalink)

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I just read through this post and realized that I can't afford to play rebuys. They're just way too expensive.

I don't want to be betting £10 ($20) on a hand like A2(s/o) preflop. Even if it means winning a few hundred at the end. I just can't afford it.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
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chardrian

05-29-2006, 03:09 PM

#37 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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You don't HAVE to play the rebuy hour as a maniac. It's just one way to get yourself a decent stack that first hour.

As long as you are willing to rebuy twice if you do get sucked out on that first hour, there is nothing wrong with playing tight that first hour.

Paradise now lets you sign up for the rebuy at any point during the first hour. I think a decent strategy for a low risk player would be to simply buy-in twice at the end of the first hour and then add-on.... You don't give yourself the chance to accumulate a huge stack that first hour, but you are giving yourself enough chips (5,500) that you can play some normal poker for an hour and you are entering a tourney with a huge prize pool and less entrants than what started.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

Roco415

06-19-2006, 04:59 PM

#38 (permalink)

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just curious, what are your best wins/results from rebuy tourneys...?

Roco415.

chardrian

06-19-2006, 05:20 PM

#39 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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I have FTed the Dise nightly $30 rebuy 5 times my best finish there is just 3rd though.

I have won the afternoon $30 rebuy for $10k as my best win.

I am still waiting to take down the nightly one.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

gregor

06-19-2006, 08:04 PM

#40 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

i thought about this too... but if you have a solid chip stack, why give up 2k to the field... if you are playing a rebuy within your bankroll, it isn't worth giving up the competitive advantage to save 5-10 bucks when you are playing for 10k.....

Ification

12-25-2008, 09:38 PM

#41 (permalink)

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Posts: 53

Helpful or harmful, when most will probably do a 180 after the break?
______________________________

Taking notes on players during the rebuy period?

Running a HUD during the rebuy hour?

Bizu

02-17-2009, 07:54 PM

#42 (permalink)

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Location: Sheffield, UK

Posts: 25

Any new updates for this Rebuy Strategy for PS? Last time it was only 1 hour rebuy period but now it's 90 minutes.
Do you still think that it is a good idea to do a fresh rebuy after you go bust after the 1st hour?
The blinds usually have gone up to 50/100 after the first hour so the best option is push/fold because you can't really afford to limp and play passive with 3000 chips.

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